Old Covenant -- vs -- New Covenant - and the same moral law of God in both

BobRyan

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Question to @BobRyan. What covenant was given by God on Mt. Sinai? Whatever it was represented Ishmael and was to be "cast out"

As we all know - "old covenant" was given in fact to Adam as "Obey and Live"

But when it comes to OT Israel at Sinai -- Paul says the "Gospel was preached to THEM (Israel at Sinai) - just as it was to US also " Heb 4:1

Yet Sinai was not an "individual" covenant (and the New Covenant is) . In other words it is not as though there were 2 million sinless "individuals" at Sinai -- until they started worshiping the golden calf.

Thus it is the NEW Covenant according to Paul - the Gospel that was being given all along - but at Sinai it was given with visual aids and illustrations.

The national-covenant at Sinai is used as a "symbol" of the Old Covenant made with Adam "obey and live" because at the level of 'a nation' that is how it was framed. Only national apostasy / rebellion -- would break it. An individual who coveted on that day or any other -- would not break that covenant.

The SAME moral Law (that includes the TEN Commandments) is in both the Old and and NEW Covenant as the Bible shows and as even
The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson -- freely demonstrate that they too can see this glaringly obvious Bible detail.

I don't think that this particular post is "news" to very many people -- not even
The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith

Some will argue "The NEW Covenant was just made with the House of Israel according to the actual text - so it is not for Christians" -- those folks may be few and possibly confused so we will also address that in this thread.

========================

1. The term Old Covenant was never used by Christ in the Gospels and is never found in the O.T.
2. The term is used with two contexts in the NT.
2.A - to speak of the Gospel liturgy used in worship under the system of animal sacrifices.
2.B - to speak of the "obey and live" covenant first made with Adam -- under which all mankind is lost even to this very day --and no forgiveness of sins is offered

Old Covenant - "Obey and Live"

Genesis 2: 16 The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

Genesis 3:
2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”

Lev 18:5 You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, which if a man does, he shall live by them: I am the Lord.

Rom 10:5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.”

Gal 3: 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

Gal 3:12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.

Jesus said
Matthew 19
if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said,
“‘You shall not murder,’ Exodus 20
You shall not commit adultery,’ Exodus 20
You shall not steal,’ Exodus 20
You shall not bear false witness,’ Exodus 20
19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ Exodus 20
and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ” Lev 19:18

All of it from "The Law of Moses"
 
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Not me

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As we all know - "old covenant" was given in fact to Adam as "Obey and Live"

But when it comes to OT Israel at Sinai -- Paul says the "Gospel was preached to THEM (Israel at Sinai) - just as it was to US also " Heb 4:1

Yet Sinai was not an "individual" covenant (and the New Covenant is) . In other words it is not as though there were 2 million sinless "individuals" at Sinai -- until they started worshiping the golden calf.

Thus it is the NEW Covenant according to Paul - the Gospel that was being given all along - but at Sinai it was given with visual aids and illustrations.

The national-covenant at Sinai is used as a "symbol" of the Old Covenant made with Adam "obey and live" because at the level of 'a nation' that is how it was framed. Only national apostasy / rebellion -- would break it. An individual who coveted on that day or any other -- would not break that covenant.

The SAME moral Law (that includes the TEN Commandments) is in both the Old and and NEW Covenant as the Bible shows and as even
The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson -- freely demonstrate that they too can see this glaringly obvious Bible detail.

I don't think that this particular post is "news" to very many people -- not even
The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith

Some will argue "The NEW Covenant was just made with the House of Israel according to the actual text - so it is not for Christians" -- those folks may be few and possibly confused so we will also address that in this thread.

I do believe the “gospel” is to believe in the “One who was sent.” In OT times they were to look forward to the “One who was to come.” (the Messiah) In NT times we look “back to the One who has come.” (Jesus the Messiah). Same Gospel, just different eyes seeing it future or passed.

Much love in Christ, Not me
 
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BobRyan

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I do believe the “gospel” is to believe in the “One who was sent.” In OT times they were to look forward to the “One who was to come.” (the Messiah) In NT times we look “back to the One who has come.” (Jesus the Messiah). Same Gospel, just different eyes seeing it future or passed.

Much love in Christ, Not me

Amen! Great point
 
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ac28

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If you're a Gentile, there are no covenants that apply to you. There are 2 covenants mentioned in the Bible, since Gen 12. Israel was never able to keep the law, through the old Sinai covenant, under their own power. Therefore, at some time in the future, the New Covenant, whose SOLE purpose, through the Holy Spirit, is to assist Israel in keeping the law, which Israel will have to do, at least until God is all and all, will be enacted. When the Holy Spirit fell on those (100% Jews) in the upper room in Ac 2, as in Joel 2, that was a sample of the New Covenant.
 
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BobRyan

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If you're a Gentile, there are no covenants that apply to you.

New Covenant does - as we see in Hebrews 8:6-12
And Old Covenant moral law applies to all the world -- as we see in Romans 3:19-20
 
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ac28

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New Covenant does - as we see in Hebrews 8:6-12
And Old Covenant moral law applies to all the world -- as we see in Romans 3:19-20
Three guesses as to whom the book of Hebrews was written to.

In Romans, Paul wrote to both saved Jews and saved Gentiles who were part of Israel (grafted in). After Acts, in Paul's last 7 books, which are the only books in the Bible that apply directly TO us today, we are under pure grace. Also, there is no separate nation of Israel today, in God's eyes. Israel was set aside in Ac 28:28, for failing to accept Christ as their Messiah. We are no longer attached to Israel in any way, unlike the saved Gentiles during Acts.
 
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BobRyan

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Three guesses as to whom the book of Hebrews was written to.

Christians.

In Hebrews 4 and 9 we find that Christ is in heaven as our high priest.
In Hebrews 10 we find that the law of animal sacrifices is ended - thus we do not do that for worship.

In Romans, Paul wrote to both saved Jews and saved Gentiles who were part of Israel (grafted in).

Which is why the New Covenant is applied to both Jews and gentiles.

2 Tim 3:16 "ALL scripture" given by inspiration from God AND to be used for doctrine. NKJV

Galatians written to gentile church.
Romans written to gentile + Jews in that one church.

details.
 
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ac28

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Christians.

In Hebrews 4 and 9 we find that Christ is in heaven as our high priest.
In Hebrews 10 we find that the law of animal sacrifices is ended - thus we do not do that for worship.



Which is why the New Covenant is applied to both Jews and gentiles.

2 Tim 3:16 "ALL scripture" given by inspiration from God AND to be used for doctrine.

Galatians written to gentile church.
Romans written to gentile + Jews in that one church.

details.
We Gentiles have no high priest. Hebrews was written TO those saved Hebrews that listened to Paul, ONLY. No part of it was written to today's Gentiles, which live in a state of PURE GRACE. No law. No Covenants. No priesthood. No Israel. Just Gentile Bible Believers.

Doctrine means teaching. I've never seen anyone give such a weak, poor interpretation of 2Tim 3:16.

In Eze 43:18-27, we find there will be animal sacrifices during the millennium. Heb 10 is way too weak to use as a proof for this. Eze is a powerful proof that you're wrong.

The ONLY purpose of the New Covenant will be to provide Israel with a way to be able to keep the law, through the Holy Spirit, by putting the law in Israel's inward parts. The NC has never been in effect. There was a sample of how it will be in Ac2, Pentecost. The NC is fully given as in Joel 2:28, in preparation for the Day of the Lord, vs 31.

You obviously don't obey 1Tim 2:15 and practice right division, where you're told to make a straight cut or chop the Word of God. Therefore, according to that verse, if you don't rightly divide, you are not approved unto God. The most obvious cut of God's Word to make is between Jews and Gentiles. This must be a complete cut, in order to remove most everything involving Israel from the new calling, hope, church, rules, and directions given to Gentiles today and found ONLY in Paul's last 7 books, all written after Israel was set aside in Ac 28:28 - Eph, Phil, Col, 1&2Tim, Titus, and Philemon. We find in these books that we have a calling to spend eternity in Heaven, unlike any calling given in any of the other 59 books of the Bible. In those 59 books, the calling was either the Land or the New Jerusalem, which is not Heaven, but a city that comes down out of Heaven and essentially becomes attached to the New Earth.

Unfortunately, most of what Christendom learns comes from the denominational system, whose churches are essentially Jewish synagogues where 100s of things that truly apply to Israel only are taught to Gentiles, as Gentile truth. Without right division which is only practiced by dispensationalists, only confusion and contradiction can result. God placed the right division rule in Paul's last 7 books, which are all Gentile, because this new church is so totally non-Israel that right division is now needed. It wasn't needed in the other 59 books because they were totally Jewish. Between Gen 12 and the end of Acts, the only time that Gentiles were truly involved was in Acts. However, the saved Gentiles in Acts were part of Israel, since they were grafted into Israel.

The best definition of a dispensationalist is a person who is approved unto God because he rightly divides. However, the only type dispensationalist that cuts (divides) God's Word correctly (rightly) is the one that sees that Acts 28:28 is the dividing line, where the correct cut must be made. On the Acts side of this cut, you have a Jewish church whose calling is, at best, the New Jerusalem. After Acts, you have a purely Gentile Church, whose unique calling is to spend eternity far above all Heavens, where Christ now sits at the right hand of God. These huge differences between Acts and After Acts are obvious if you temporarily forget everything you think you know, take off your Acts spectacles and concentrate on exactly what Ephesians and Colossians are literally trying to tell you, if you'd just listen. You have to give up everything in Acts, the church, Paul's 7 Acts books, all of the General epistles, and, especially, the thing that has grabbed you and won't let go, the rapture. Your new and far better "rapture" is called the Appearing, which is found ONLY in Paul's last 7 books.

If you don't rightly divide and don't cut away all the Israel stuff from your own Gentile stuff of today, found only in Paul's last 7 books, you'll never know anything, period, beyond Christ and Him crucified. You're saved but you don't have a calling of Heaven unless you rightly divide and SEE, BELIEVE, and CLAIM this calling in Paul's post-Acts books. Once you SEE it, you can't miss it. It's so obvious, you'll be amazed that everybody doesn't see it. But, you'll never see it unless you first park all that Acts baggage that every one of you are burdened with. For those who have read “ The Rime of the Ancient Mariner,” Acts is your albatross hanging around your neck.
 
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BobRyan

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We Gentiles have no high priest.

Other than Christ.

Hebrews was written TO those saved Hebrews that listened to Paul, ONLY.

Totally false.

No part of it was written to today's Gentiles, which live in a state of PURE GRACE. No law. No Covenants. No priesthood. No Israel. Just Gentile Bible Believers.

Good for opinion and creative writing - but does not work as an actual Bible text.
 
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BobRyan

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In Hebrews 4 and 9 we find that Christ is in heaven as our high priest.
In Hebrews 10 we find that the law of animal sacrifices is ended - thus we do not do that for worship.

In Romans, Paul wrote to both saved Jews and saved Gentiles who were part of Israel (grafted in).

Which is why the New Covenant is applied to both Jews and gentiles.

2 Tim 3:16 "ALL scripture" given by inspiration from God AND to be used for doctrine. NKJV

Galatians written to gentile church.
Romans written to gentile + Jews in that one church.

details.

I've never seen anyone give such a weak, poor interpretation of 2Tim 3:16.

Then you need to read more... start with 2 Tim 3.


Heb 10 is way too weak to use as a proof for this.

You "appear" to define "weak" as -- a Bible text that differs with your personal preference.

The ONLY purpose of the New Covenant will be to provide Israel with a way to be able to keep the law, through the Holy Spirit, by putting the law in Israel's inward parts. The NC has never been in effect.

Less creative writing please.
 
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BobRyan

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. You have to give up everything in Acts, the church, Paul's 7 Acts books, all of the General epistles, and, especially, the thing that has grabbed you and won't let go, the rapture.

My Bible has 66 books - yours appears to have 3
 
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ac28

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BobRyan,

I just noticed you are SDA and therefore this will be my last post to you. Any time I spent with you I would consider a waste. I believe that the only books for any of us today are Paul's last 7 books. I arrived at that by obeying 2Tim 2:15 and applying right division to the scriptures, According to that verse, if I did it correctly, which I am confident I did, I am approved unto God. That verse would also say that anyone that doesn't rightly divide is not approved unto God.

I don't know much about SDA and really don't want to. From what I've seen though, they actually believe that some (what they've hand-picked) of the OT, like the 10 commandments, are written TO them. How more non-Biblical can you get? To believe this, they have to be Anti-right divisionists and they, therefore, according to 2Tim 2:15, can't be approved unto God, no matter what they think.

I've always wondered how those people that think the Gentiles must obey the 10 Commandments take Mt 22:36-40, where Jesus Christ reduced them and the law and the prophets to 2 Commandments.

Since nothing in the OT applies directly TO me or any Gentile, I can only go by scripture that does apply to me, no matter what the non-prophetess, Ellen White, said..
Col 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you
in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Ellen White was not a man, but I'm sure she would be included in that verse.

I am saved by grace through faith, totally, without doing any works, like obeying Israel's OT laws.

Unfortunately, the denominational church system is essentially a bunch of Jewish synagogues, teaching things belonging ONLY to Israel to gullible Gentiles. No matter what you think, God has ALWAYS, in His entire Bible, kept things belonging to Israel totally separate from things belonging to Gentiles. The more that a church tries to brings these things together, that God has obviously kept apart, the more fake that church is.

The obvious purpose of right division is to CUT or CHOP correctly and thoroughly the Word of God, exactly where Israel ends and purely Gentiles begin. The only place in scripture that qualifies is Acts 28:28. Everything before then doesn't apply to me directly, or anyone else, and everything after totally applies to me and everyone else on the planet, like it or not.

Have a nice life.
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan,

I just noticed you are SDA and therefore this will be my last post to you.

sweet! :)

Some other folks are not aware that we are such good Bible students and so they keep trying to find a flaw -- and eventually as you seem to point out - they find none.

Any time I spent with you I would consider a waste. I believe that the only books for any of us today are Paul's last 7 books.

Any time I find a tiny-7-book-bible promoter (which is almost never) - I also usually agree to "differ" and leave it.

BUT I LOVE the idea that rejecting the full-Bible presentation of SDAs has only one option to retreat to and that is a tiny-7-book-bible position. whoo-hoo! That is an ideal I did not think we could get to ... but nice to see it in black-and-white
 
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mark58

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As we all know - "old covenant" was given in fact to Adam as "Obey and Live"

But when it comes to OT Israel at Sinai -- Paul says the "Gospel was preached to THEM (Israel at Sinai) - just as it was to US also " Heb 4:1

Yet Sinai was not an "individual" covenant (and the New Covenant is) . In other words it is not as though there were 2 million sinless "individuals" at Sinai -- until they started worshiping the golden calf.

Thus it is the NEW Covenant according to Paul - the Gospel that was being given all along - but at Sinai it was given with visual aids and illustrations.

The national-covenant at Sinai is used as a "symbol" of the Old Covenant made with Adam "obey and live" because at the level of 'a nation' that is how it was framed. Only national apostasy / rebellion -- would break it. An individual who coveted on that day or any other -- would not break that covenant.

The SAME moral Law (that includes the TEN Commandments) is in both the Old and and NEW Covenant as the Bible shows and as even
The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson -- freely demonstrate that they too can see this glaringly obvious Bible detail.

I don't think that this particular post is "news" to very many people -- not even
The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith

Some will argue "The NEW Covenant was just made with the House of Israel according to the actual text - so it is not for Christians" -- those folks may be few and possibly confused so we will also address that in this thread.
What you should have added was no one could keep the moral law under the OC, though as today, some self righteous people believed they could keep it(the Pharisees)
 
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klutedavid

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Some other folks are not aware that we are such good Bible students and so they keep trying to find a flaw -- and eventually as you seem to point out - they find none.
Why do people boast?

Well Bob, let's see if you are a good Bible student?

You made the following statement in post #6.
And Old Covenant moral law applies to all the world -- as we see in Romans 3:19-20
Let's read that verse (Romans 3:19-20) and see if what you just said is accurate.

Romans 3:19-20
Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

You said, 'Old Covenant moral law', but the verse simply states, 'the law'.

See Bob, no mention in the actual text of your inserted phrase, 'moral law'.

If I'm not mistaken Bob, you have changed that text (Romans 3:19-20), now is that what a good Bible student does?
 
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ac28

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What you should have added was no one could keep the moral law under the OC, though as today, some self righteous people believed they could keep it(the Pharisees)

Very good. Do you believe what the scripture says about the NC, that it's solely given to Israel and its entire purpose is to indwell Israel with the Holy Spirit, as in Joel 2, so as to put the law in their inward parts, so they will be able to finally keep the law, and love doing it? And that a sample of this indwelling occurred at Pentecost in Acts 2? Of course, we know from Ezekiel that Israel will still be making animal sacrifices during the millennium. I don't know about the time after God becomes all in all, but It wouldn't surprise me if Israel was still keeping the law.
 
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mark58

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Very good. Do you believe what the scripture says about the NC, that it's solely given to Israel and its entire purpose is to indwell Israel with the Holy Spirit, as in Joel 2, so as to put the law in their inward parts, so they will be able to finally keep the law, and love doing it? And that a sample of this indwelling occurred at Pentecost in Acts 2? Of course, we know from Ezekiel that Israel will still be making animal sacrifices during the millennium. I don't know about the time after God becomes all in all, but It wouldn't surprise me if Israel was still keeping the law.
Well the law was placed on the hearts of the Corinthians(2cor3:3) and they were gentiles! Don't think they fully kept the law, do you?

Do you know anyone who is perfect in their flesh? I don't
 
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BobRyan

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Well Bob, let's see if you are a good Bible student?
You made the following statement in post #6.

And Old Covenant moral law applies to all the world -- as we see in Romans 3:19-20

Let's read that verse (Romans 3:19-20) and see if what you just said is accurate.

I love this ... not only because it is plain as day in Romans 3... but also because you are picking one of the areas where not only does the Bible agree with what I just said - so does every Christian denomination on the planet!

Nice!

Romans 3:19-21
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


Indeed the Law "defines" what sin is. 1 John 3:4 "sin IS transgression of the LAW"

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Hmm "LAW and the Prophets" sounds like OT to me. IN fact... to all of us.

You said, 'Old Covenant moral law', but the verse simply states, 'the law'.

In fact "the LAW and the Prophets" --- the Old Testament moral LAW of God.

The one 2 Cor 3 said is "written on stone"
The one with "Do not take God's name in vain" in it.

The one where the 5th Commandment is the "first commandment with promise" Eph 6:2

No wonder the "Westminster Confession of faith" and the "Baptist Confession of Faith" and almost all other Christian denominations on planet earth - get this easy to read point.

The moral law -- defines what sin is.. and Romans 3 states that this Law does it.
Indeed "the LAW and the prophets" -- which is always a reference to the OT.

If I'm not mistaken Bob, you have changed that text (Romans 3:19-20),

As is so often the case... you are in fact mistaken once again.
But thanks for a focus on this text all the same -- absolutely perfect!

Bob
 
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