Old Covenant -- vs -- New Covenant - and the same moral law of God in both

[BobRyan]

I feel to understand why you keep bringing up Adam and that covenant.

Because the Old Covenant is "very very old" it starts in the garden of Eden. "obey and live" was the rule and it continues to be the same rule to this very day - which is what all those texts were showing.

All the lost today - are lost under the very same condition/agreement/covenant. "Obey and live"

You're right that not every Covenant was an "individual" covenant... some reinforced others. For instance the Mosaic Covenant was reinforced by the Sinai Covenant. Also, there was more then one Covenant with Abraham.

Abraham had promises given to him regarding the nation of Israel that would be the children of Isaac his son. But Paul informs us that Abraham had more than that - Abraham had the Gospel... the "one Gospel" of Gal 1:6-9 according to Paul.

"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8

And hence in Hebrews 11 we see this about Abraham

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; 10 for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God. ..
13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

1 Peter 1
10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.

John 8
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

 

[BobRyan]

The New Covenant did not abolish every other covenant, but it was the New and Everlasting Covenant open to all who would accept it.

I can only repeat that the "old covenant" refers to the Mosaic covenant.

IT was a sin to take God's name in vain at Sinai -- as we see in Exodus 20:7
It would be sin for Abraham to do it.
It is sin for a Christian to do it today.

It is the same moral law of God in both Old Covenant and New Covenant.

 

[GodsGrace101]

IT was a sin to take God's name in vain at Sinai -- as we see in Exodus 20:7
It would be sin for Abraham to do it.
It is sin for a Christian to do it today.

It is the same moral law of God in both Old Covenant and New Covenant.

I agree!
Please call the Edenic Covenant just that. This would be what you call the old old covenant.
The OLD COVENANT refers to the Mosaic Covenant --- some will become confused.

Edenic Covenant - the oldest covenant; obey and live.
Mosaic Covenant - the Old Covenant as opposed to the New Covenant.

(I'm not arguing with you, I'm just saying the terms are different)

 

[GodsGrace101]

Because the Old Covenant is "very very old" it starts in the garden of Eden. "obey and live" was the rule and it continues to be the same rule to this very day - which is what all those texts were showing.

All the lost today - are lost under the very same condition/agreement/covenant. "Obey and live"




Abraham had promises given to him regarding the nation of Israel that would be the children of Isaac his son. But Paul informs us that Abraham had more than that - Abraham had the Gospel... the "one Gospel" of Gal 1:6-9 according to Paul.

"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8

And hence in Hebrews 11 we see this about Abraham

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; 10 for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God. ..
13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

1 Peter 1
10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.

John 8
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

Good post. Just two comments:
Abraham having seen Jesus proves that we are alive after death and do not "soul sleep". This is also proven in the transfiguration.
Mathew 17:1-13

The N.T. speaks of the mysteries of the faith. Truths that are now revealed to man but which were previously hidden.
Mathew 13:11
Colossians 1:26-27
Ephesians 3:4-6

 

[faroukfarouk]

Good post. Just two comments:
Abraham having seen Jesus proves that we are alive after death and do not "soul sleep". This is also proven in the transfiguration.
Mathew 17:1-13

The N.T. speaks of the mysteries of the faith. Truths that are now revealed to man but which were previously hidden.
Mathew 13:11
Colossians 1:26-27
Ephesians 3:4-6

'Absent from the body'; 'present with the Lord' (2 Corinthians 5.8).

 

[BobRyan]

Good post. Just two comments:
Abraham having seen Jesus proves that we are alive after death and do not "soul sleep". This is also proven in the transfiguration.
Mathew 17:1-13

Well 2 things
1. - soul sleep is not the subject of the thread (but is clearly stated in 1Thess 4:13-18) and John 11 "our friend Lazarus sleeps I go that I may wake 'him' ".

The statement about Abraham however has nothing to do with soul sleep - Christ did not say "after Abraham died he saw my day" and the Bible doctrine on prophecy never states that a living person cannot be shown a future event, so the natural meaning in the text is that Abraham was showing something... not that Abraham had to first die in order to see something.

In Matt 17 you have Moses and Elijah - 1 Kings 2 says Elijah was bodily translated/assumed into heaven while living. Moses is the subject of the statement in Jude 7 which is quote from the book "The Assumption of Moses" which is an account of the bodily "assumption of Moses" after he died.

2. - The list of Christian groups that are affirming the Ten Commandments in OT and NT - yet do not believe in soul sleep (which I keep including in my signature line) demonstrates the point that regardless of what you believe on the topic of soul sleep - the statement about the Law of God would not change.

As for your point that understanding of truth increases over time - over the centuries - well I do agree.

 

[BobRyan]

I agree!
Please call the Edenic Covenant just that.

It is fine to name that covenant and say "obey and live" is the rule for the old covenant and for the Edenic Covenant. It is shorter to just point to that list of texts showing that the same "obey and live" rule was being used in OT and NT even in Eden.

This would be what you call the old old covenant.
The OLD COVENANT refers to the Mosaic Covenant ---

There is no text in the OT calling the Covenant at Sinai "the Old Covenant" -- but we do see that term used in the NT where it is specific to "obey and live" which is always the case when the N.T. talks about "Old Covenant"

Edenic Covenant - the oldest covenant; obey and live.
Mosaic Covenant - symbolic of the Old Covenant and the New Covenant only uses it with the rule "obey and live" any time the N.T. mentions "Old Covenant".


But there is absolutely nothing about the Law itself "such as - DO not take God's name in vain" - the makes it N.C. not Old Covenant or - O.C and not N.C.
in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

'Absent from the body'; 'present with the Lord' (2 Corinthians 5.8).

2 Cor 5 does not say "to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord" as we all know.

That chapter describes 3 states of man.

1. At home in this decaying tent.
2. Unclothed with no tent at all -
3. Clothed in the immortal body - which 1 Cor 15 already stated to be given to us at the resurrection at which point the text says 'this mortal will put on immortality'

1 Corinthians 15 provides context for 2 Corinthians 5 when it comes to what happens to the dead.

 

[BobRyan]

A lot of confusion on this topic injected by popular tv evangelists - but in fact the contrast between OC and NC is simple.

It is lost vs saved.

The New Covenant IS the Gospel - the one Gospel of Gal 1:6-9
And the Old Covenant is the "obey and live" covenant given BEFORE the Gospel - it was given to Adam at his creation