Old Covenant defined - vs - NEW Covenant

[Doug Melven]

It is a big, big surprise to me, and I apologize if you did look it up.
How many occurences of the word "TORAH" did you find , basically, in the TORAH, PROPHETS, PSALMS and NEW TESTAMENT ? (just an average round figure is fine)

it was a long time ago, I don't remember.
When I gave the definition of Torah, did I miss something critical?
What about 1 Timothy 1:5-13?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

it was a long time ago, I don't remember.
When I gave the definition of Torah, did I miss something critical?
What about 1 Timothy 1:5-13?

I think much that is basic has been missed.
Since it was not learned, and as you say you don't remember,
it would be helpful to and for yourself to look up all the occurences again,
and pray that Yahweh grants understanding, of course, as always, as we all pray.
All Scripture - TORAH, PROPHETS, PSALMS and NEW TESTAMENT are in PERFECT HARMONY. This includes all of Timothy. And all of Paul's letters - no contradictions.

 

[listed]

Yahweh's Word is far, far above.... and not what you are trying to say.

Look up "TORAH" in biblegateway in a translation that says TORAH when TORAH is meant, instead of saying law.
See this in TORAH, PROPHETS, PSALMS and NEW TESTAMENT. And see what God actually says, if He permits.

To most Torah means "The Law," the first 5 books of our Bible even in your circles.

 

[HARK!]

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

In this verse we find the same possessive word "my" about commandments. The statement in this verse is a comparative statement. It compares the commandments of Jesus with those of His (our) Father.

(CLV) Jn 15:10
If ever you should be keeping My precepts, you will be remaining in My love, according as I have kept the precepts of My Father and am remaining in His love.

What commandments do you suppose those might be, other than YHWH's commands; as Yahshua to us to keep his commands, in accord with the way that he kept YHWH's commands. Yahshua did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill. Yahshua told us to follow him.

(CLV) 1Jn 2:4
He who is saying that "I know Him" and is not keeping His precepts, is a liar, and the truth of God is not in this one.

(CLV) 1Jn 2:5
Yet whoever may be keeping His word, truly in this one the love of God is perfected. In this we know that we are in Him:

(CLV) 1Jn 2:6
he who is saying that he is remaining in Him ought also himself to be walking according as He walks.




Why are so eager to dismiss YHWH's word?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Why are so eager to dismiss YHWH's word?

As it is written, there is a subset of humans who love the darkness rather than the LIGHT. That is one possiblity , that often comes up on forums and in most neighborhoods.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Which quoted verses? YHWH is not the author of confusion.

hahaha, ALL SCRIPTURE , so all quoted verses, may be about Jesus, or have the purpose of pointing to HIM (all TORAH is and does! ) ...

 

[listed]

1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

Before you start teaching anybody the law, Paul says in verse 9 the first thing we need to know is that the law is not made for a righteous man.
So for a preacher to preach the law to righteous people is to ignore the first thing we need to know about the law.
This wasn't my idea, or Paul's, this was God's idea.

This is a primary reason I don't attend religious activities any more. It has become the source of evangelizing the wicked and not a fellowship of the righteous Christian for discipleship.

 

[ewq1938]

Ok, this is a passionate topic BUT flaming, which is basically posting insults, is not allowed. It doesn't matter how strongly you feel right, and what you think biblical characters would have done in your place...here at CF flaming is against the rules so as the rules state:

• Please treat all members with respect and courtesy through civil dialogue.
• Do not personally attack (insult, belittle, mock, ridicule) other members or groups of members on CF. Address only the content of the post and not the poster.

 

[BobRyan]

This is a primary reason I don't attend religious activities any more. It has become the source of evangelizing the wicked and not a fellowship of the righteous Christian for discipleship.

Evangelizing the lost... a bad thing?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Evangelizing the lost... a bad thing?

How can we evangelize the lost ?
Can anyone speak as Yahweh's messenger Paul did in Athens ?
Or as Stephan did in ACTS ?
Or as directed in Galatians VS the Judaizers ?

Or as Jesus did to the woman at the well ?
Or as Jesus did to Naaman ? (this isn't a trick question, just now thought of it; does it fit ? )
Or as Jesus did to the ten lepers ? or the innumerable others not mentioned who were healed ?

As Yahweh's messenger John did in 1 John ?

There's a lot there, all through the NT, that might help people today, lost people, if they could see this and hear this.
Healing, and Restoration to Yahweh, and to being human alive in Christ, made one with Him !
Honoring Yahweh because He is Sovereing Eternal Creator beyond all anyone could think, filling the universe with His Presence , immeasurable in GLORY !!!

 

[BobRyan]

Any pastor who preaches the 10 commandments to a congregation of believers should not be speaking except to a congregation of lost people.

Or to saved people who are under the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 and have the Law of God written on the heart.

.
So whenever you preach to a righteous man about the 10 Commandments you are in sin and need to repent.

Utter nonsense says Christ in Matthew 19.
Says Paul in Rom 3:31
Says Paul in 1Cor 7:19
Says John in 1 John 5:2-3
Says John in Rev 14:12
... and on and on it goes with NT writers doing the very thing you have forbidden.

 

[Doug Melven]

Utter nonsense says Christ in Matthew 19.

Jesus was preaching to a lost man

Says Paul in Rom 3:31

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Who do we establish it for? Not the righteous.

Says Paul in 1Cor 7:19

Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
You just assume this means the law given at Sinai.
Torah can refer to the Pentateuch, the 10 C's or God's teaching.

Says John in e1 John 5:2-3

5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

And what is God's command but to believe on the Son.

Says John in Rev 14:12

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus
Again you assume this is the 10 C's.

And if you were right, then the 10 C's would be for the righteous, which they are not.
So says Paul in Romans 10:4, 1 Timothy 1:5-13

 

[mailmandan]

That Gospel is Jesus. That Gospel isn't the law as you insist.

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyones that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). We believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation.

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus was preaching to a lost man

He came to save a lost world.
When is it that we are supposed to ignore the teaching of Christ?

And how about Paul? "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Rom 3:31

Was he saying in that letter "only read this if you are lost"??

"Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is keeping of the commandments of God." 1 Cor 7:19

You just assume this means the law given at Sinai.

Some "other law" mentions circumcision??

Paul is clear in Romans 7 that when he says LAW and commandment it includes the TEN

This is irrefutable.

1 John 5
5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

From the same author that tells us in John 12 and John 14 that all that Jesus said comes from the Father's commandments.

And of course Hebrews 8:6-10 reminds us that it is Jesus speaking at Sinai.

James 2 gives examples of those commandments
Eph 6:2 gives an example of those commandments
Romans 7 gives an example of those commandments.

1 John 2 he who claims to believe on the Son - should keep His commandments.

Rev 14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus"

 

[Doug Melven]

Paul is clear in Romans 7 that when he says LAW and commandment it includes the TEN

This is irrefutable.

Absolutely irrefutable.
7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
We are dead to the 10 C's
7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
We are delivered from 10 C's
7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.me again?

Sin took advantage of the law and slew me.

Now that Jesus has raised me up, why would I want to go back to the law so sin can slay me again?
No thank you.

From the same author that tells us in John 12 and John 14 that all that Jesus said comes from the Father's commandments.

Again you assume that this is the 10 C's.

And of course Hebrews 8:6-10 reminds us that it is Jesus speaking at Sinai.

How do you get that out of that passage?
Jesus is the Mediator of a better covenant, not the mediator of the covenant that was faulty because it needed us to keep it.

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus was preaching to a lost man

He came to save a lost world.
When is it that we are supposed to ignore the teaching of Christ?

And how about Paul? "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Rom 3:31

Was he saying in that letter "only read this if you are lost"??

"Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is keeping of the commandments of God." 1 Cor 7:19

You just assume this means the law given at Sinai.

Some "other law" mentions circumcision??

Paul is clear in Romans 7 that when he says LAW and commandment it includes the TEN

This is irrefutable.

1 John 5
5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

From the same author that tells us in John 12 and John 14 that all that Jesus said comes from the Father's commandments.

And of course Hebrews 8:6-10 reminds us that it is Jesus speaking at Sinai.

James 2 gives examples of those commandments
Eph 6:2 gives an example of those commandments
Romans 7 gives an example of those commandments.

1 John 2 he who claims to believe on the Son - should keep His commandments.

Rev 14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus"

Absolutely irrefutable.
.

Was not expecting that.

but I did expect to find that the "NEW Covenant" writes the LAW on the heart... Jer 31:31-33 as Jeremiah stated and Hebrews 8:6-12 stated.

 

[BobRyan]

Again you assume that this is the 10 C's.
.

Every time -- "God's commandments" or "the Commandments" or "The LAW" is quoted in the NT - it is always the LAW of Moses.

See Matt 19 "which commandments?" and Christ answers the question.
See Mark 7:6-13
See Romans 13
See Romans 7
See Eph 6:2
See James 2

 

[Doug Melven]

He came to save a lost world.
When is it that we are supposed to ignore the teaching of Christ?

And how about Paul? "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Rom 3:31

Was he saying in that letter "only read this if you are lost"??

"Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is keeping of the commandments of God." 1 Cor 7:19



Some "other law" mentions circumcision??

Paul is clear in Romans 7 that when he says LAW and commandment it includes the TEN

This is irrefutable.

1 John 5
5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

From the same author that tells us in John 12 and John 14 that all that Jesus said comes from the Father's commandments.

And of course Hebrews 8:6-10 reminds us that it is Jesus speaking at Sinai.

James 2 gives examples of those commandments
Eph 6:2 gives an example of those commandments
Romans 7 gives an example of those commandments.

1 John 2 he who claims to believe on the Son - should keep His commandments.

Rev 14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus"



Was not expecting that.

but I did expect to find that the "NEW Covenant" writes the LAW on the heart... Jer 31:31-33 as Jeremiah stated and Hebrews 8:6-12 stated.

You continue to ignore the Scriptures I used such as 1 Timothy 1:5-10,
You just dismiss it out of hand.
In your doctrine there is no grace. You think you deserve God's favor because you think you live a holy life. You might live godly in man's eyes, I assure you that you do not live holy in God's eyes.
The reason I say this is because you try to keep the law thinking that will make God pleased with you.
But faith is the only thing that pleases God. Hebrews 11:6

Every time -- "God's commandments" or "the Commandments" or "The LAW" is quoted in the NT - it is always the LAW of Moses.

See Matt 19 "which commandments?" and Christ answers the question.
See Mark 7:6-13
See Romans 13
See Romans 7
See Eph 6:2
See James 2

You forgot to mention Galatians.
2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

But I suppose now you will say Paul wasn't referring to the 10 Commandments here.

 

[BobRyan]

You continue to ignore the Scriptures I used such as 1 Timothy 1:5-10,
You just dismiss it out of hand.

Your response to the 15 texts in my post that you gave the response above to... was to ignore them all and say lets talk about 1 Tim 1 instead?

Ok 1 Tim 1
5 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, 7 wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.
8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.


We also know it is written on the heart under the New Covenant - Hebrews 8:6-12.

And we know it condemns all the world as sinners - Romans 3:19-21

And we know that the lost "do not submit to the Law of God neither indeed CAN they" Romans 8:4-10

In your doctrine there is no grace. You think you deserve...

Switch from false accusation piled on top of false accusation - to actually responding to the texts...

As we both know "I am not author of the texts" so treating them as if they are all just "my doctrine" is not "compelling".

Try another solution.

 

[BobRyan]

Again you assume that this is the 10 C's.
.

Every time -- "God's commandments" or "the Commandments" or "The LAW" is quoted in the NT - it is always the LAW of Moses.

See Matt 19 "which commandments?" and Christ answers the question.
See Mark 7:6-13
See Romans 13 where we see Christ's Matt 19 list "again"
See Romans 7
See Eph 6:2
See James 2

Every time -- "God's commandments" or "the Commandments" or "The LAW" is quoted in the NT - it is always the LAW of Moses.

That answers the question about what the Commandments are.

You forgot to mention Galatians.
2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

That is not helping your argument since the point above was "what does the Bible say those commandments are".

Every time -- "God's commandments" or "the Commandments" or "The LAW" is quoted in the NT - it is always the LAW of Moses.

=============================

let's make it really simple

"do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7
"Honor your father and mother" Ex 20:12
"Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5
"Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18

Do you think we can see the Law of Moses in Exodus 20 or Deut 6? or Lev 19?

"if you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" said Christ - John 14:15