NZ fascist terrorist's manifesto

[dzheremi]

As to any gay pastors in Hollywood or whatever, I'm not the one who is talking about some kind of uniquely true spirit of Christianity that would be best expressed by gay clergy in the first place. That's FireDragon76's hill to metaphorically die upon, if they wish to. I am an Orthodox Christian and we do not support the melding of modern sexual activity-based anthropologies with Christianity as other, more liberal types of Christianity do.

 

[essentialsaltes]

I think you've confused the questioner's question with my answer. FireDragon76 asked if gay imams might not have in some way captured something that is uniquely true about Islam. I responded that Islam commands the death of gays

No it doesn't. You quoted a hadith, not "Islam".

so it is the doctrinal stance of Islam itself

No, it isn't. Any more than the doctrinal stance of Christianity itself is that male homosexuals must be executed.

Islam itself -- if you judge by the hadith where the clearest instructions are found

Pfft. That's not even the Koran. It's not divine.

Christianity itself -- if you judge by the divinely inspired Bible, where the clearest instructions are found.... blah blah blah.

I say again: Either you are wrong, or you are just as dangerous. Take your pick.

 

[FireDragon76]

Sure it is, since much of the conversation is about some allegedly unique property of Islam that makes it particularly icky. And when evidence is sought, someone points to scripture. This is not unique. Who's to say the gay pastors in West Hollywood haven't captured something uniquely true about Christianity?

There's actually nothing too strange about it today. Millions of Americans belong to churches that have openly gay clergy, and millions more people in the pews would accept it if their church hierarchy allowed it. It started in the late 60's with the Rev. Troy Perry, whose Metropolitan Community Church was considered a bit of a joke, even by many gay people, not unlike how a gay imam is probably thought of today. Then, the UCC was the first mainline church in the 70's to ordain openly gay people . My own church has been doing it for decades as well, making the practice official in 2009.

I think you've confused the questioner's question with my answer. FireDragon76 asked if gay imams might not have in some way captured something that is uniquely true about Islam. I responded that Islam commands the death of gays, so it is the doctrinal stance of Islam itself that would say that there is nothing true of the way gay Imams practice their Islam, since it is primarily concerned with meting out temporal punishment for being gay. I didn't claim that this was unique to Islam in the first place, only that Islam itself -- if you judge by the hadith where the clearest instructions are found -- denies these people. Hence my earlier reply about how it doesn't matter how many gay Imams there are. Gay imams and their liberal Lutheran friends don't change the instruction found in al Tirmidhi.

Some forms of Christianity did, and still do, command the death of gays.

 

[dzheremi]

No it doesn't. You quoted a hadith, not "Islam".

Hahaha. Oh come on...really straining at those gnats, aren't you? Or are you in fact a Quranist? It wouldn't be the first time I've interacted with a supposed atheist who nevertheless takes Islam as his most favored pet project, but just the same I'm not interested in this kind of lame hair-splitting to absolutely no good end with a bad faith actor.

No, it isn't. Any more than the doctrinal stance of Christianity itself is that male homosexuals must be executed.

Well if somebody wants to make that argument about Christianity using interpretive sources of comparable importance to ~80% of the Christian world (say, the fathers), they can be my guest. That's not a conversation I'm having.

Pfft. That's not even the Koran. It's not divine.

And again, this is a great argument to make if you're a Quranist...the only thing the atheist is likely to have in common with the Quranist, however, is the degree to which they are taken seriously in their interpretation of the Qur'an by mainstream Sunni Islam.

I guess it's suddenly "divine" when you think you're making a point, though.

Christianity itself -- if you judge by the divinely inspired Bible, where the clearest instructions are found.... blah blah blah.

I say again: Either you are wrong, or you are just as dangerous. Take your pick.

I say again: blah blah blah blah but I put it in bold and italics so that you can really focus in on this very important and not at all asinine non-point I'm making.

See how easy that is to do, and how it doesn't magically make an argument congeal out of whatever slime I write in imitation of you?

The reality of the matter is this:

Someday, after the alliance that the reflexively politically correct have made with Islam blows up in everyone's faces in a large enough way that it can't just be swept under the rug, people who fake-answer everything that talks about Islam in particular with cries of "But whaaaat about Christianity?" will be looked at in the same light as those who answer the idea that black lives matter with "Excuse me, but I think all lives matter", and for the same reasons: (1) Nobody is saying otherwise; (2) everyone knows what you're doing; (3) it's cheap and makes you look like a smarmy jerk.

You can take your pick of those, since they all apply to what you have written a propos of apparently nothing but your innate desire to force this discussion to go along the lines that you, the atheist who seems to believe (or at least write as though he believes) that all monotheistic Middle Eastern religions are essentially the same, would like it to go. Well I'm not a part of that crowd, I don't believe that all Middle Eastern monotheisms are the same (in fact, I don't think Islam is truly monotheistic in the first place, since they do have a deified book that they treat accordingly while conveniently side-stepping the implications that this has for their theology) or equally prone to violence or whatever the point is in bringing up Christianity.

In the modern world, Islam is a uniquely dangerous and destructive religion. If you would prefer to live in a world where that is somehow not the case because you really don't want it to be (and also, y'know...what about Christianity?), that's fine. Nobody can stop you from thinking that, and it is beyond boring having this same conversation with everyone. Heck, I hope you're right. It would make things a lot easier for basically everyone in my communion if you were. I'm not that optimistic, however.

 

[FireDragon76]

If you want a less controversial subject, look at how acceptance of contraception has spread in Protestantism. Up until the 1930's, almost all Protestant denominations considered it sinful or a taboo subject. Anglicans were the first in 1932 to accept it... in some cases. Today, it's acceptance is widespread in Protestantism, and it used to be something that made Protestants different from Catholics.

 

[dzheremi]

Some forms of Christianity did, and still do, command the death of gays.

I never said they didn't. I even wrote in the part of the post you're supposedly responding to "I didn't claim that this was unique to Islam in the first place."

 

[FireDragon76]

Don't worry D, I am not about to go out and help build Dar al-Islam. But I also am committed to the western liberal project, and the reflexive essentialism and traditionalism of your own stance isn't something I agree with, either. Not because I'm a naive optimist, but because I genuinely don't value it all that much. I do not think the Christian past was all that glorious, either. Folks in glass houses should not thrown stones, etc.

 

[dzheremi]

I don't care either way. I think you'll all be used as the Jews and Christians of the past are now used to paint a false picture of the Iberian Peninsula under the Muslims (for one example) in order to glorify the people who will either rule you or take a lot of you out in the process of trying to do so, but I'm not here to tell you to not do what you think is right, only that I am tired of the false cries of "What about Christianity?" every time someone brings up Islam in particular, as though we should all have to buy into this worldview that because the western secularist thinks that all religions are the same, they actually are.

When it comes to what life under Islam as a distinctly disfavored minority is, I'll continue to trust over the viewpoints of others in this thread the points of view of my Coptic, Syriac, Armenian, and other Middle Eastern/North African coreligionists in places where Islam has now held sway for ~1400 years and counting, where it behaves as it wishes in societies in which it is written into the law code, and preached openly in the native languages and not in neutered and rosy translations. And I won't stop finding it very funny that the very same people who are crying "But what about Christianity?" here in the west are doing so out of a legitimate fear of religious theocracy all the while rolling out the red prayer carpet for the most openly violent, unapologetically theocratic religion on the face of the planet. I hope that these people know that it will be better for them, if they cannot just go ahead and profess Islam since they are busy supporting it anyway, to identify with Christianity than with their oh so liberal and tolerant atheism, as at least the former are "People of the Book" and hence guaranteed under the shari'a a bare minimum of rights in exchange for their dignity and property, while the atheist has only the choice to flee or be killed.

Not that being a dimmi is all that great, either, but since that's what you're left with when you're so afraid of non-existent Christian theocracy that you'll defend Muslim theocracy on the off chance that everyone in the nearly millennia and a half history of Islam just got it all wildly wrong when it came to freedoms that we take for granted in the secular west (and after all, you wouldn't want to be called a 'racist' for disagreeing with the religion of the poor, put-upon arch-brown people, would you?), you might as well study up on it now.

Certainly racist Islamophobe and probably lying displaced archbishop HG Nicodemus Daoud Sharaf of the Syriac Orthodox Church of Mosul, Iraq on the education of the barbarians (the Muslim invaders, not the Westerners) that they are now paying for:

As it is going now, his people's story will be your people's story, whether you consider yourself an active builder of "Dar al-Islam" or not.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

His avowed inspiration was Islam itself, specifically the numerous Islamic terrorist attacks in Europe.

 

[JosephZ]

When it comes to what life under Islam as a distinctly disfavored minority is, I'll continue to trust over the viewpoints of others in this thread the points of view of my Coptic, Syriac, Armenian, and other Middle Eastern/North African coreligionists in places where Islam has now held sway for ~1400 years and counting, where it behaves as it wishes in societies in which it is written into the law code, and preached openly in the native languages and not in neutered and rosy translations.

How much of your lifetime has been spent living under Islam as a minority?

 

[Nithavela]

Discord is ablaze with nightmarish trolling and the video circulating widely of the shooting. It's been whack a mole keeping it off my servers.

Maybe people will start to take the "ironic ethnonationalists" on the chans more seriously now. No more can you use that excuse as casual memeing and trolling.

We are obviously using different discord servers.

 

[essentialsaltes]

1. "Fear of Difference", which fascism seeks to exploit and exacerbate, often in the form of racism or an appeal against foreigners and immigrants.

 

[dzheremi]

How much of your lifetime has been spent living under Islam as a minority?

None of it, and I'd like to keep it that way. If I wanted to live in an Islamic society I could conceivably go do that, but as I've already stated I do not want that.

 

[Zoness]

We are obviously using different discord servers.

My advice is basically go nowhere near any of the more "free-speechy" politics servers. By free-speechy I mean the ones that have no-moderation channels. My space is mostly philosophy/religion servers and some around specific games and fandoms but yeah I am little bit alarmed at how some pretty dark stuff has started creeping into a lot of them.

But I love Discord as a platform, its basically my modern IRC equivalent and pretty addictive to spend time talking to people like the old days but in a much more versatile format.

 

[FireDragon76]

None of it, and I'd like to keep it that way. If I wanted to live in an Islamic society I could conceivably go do that, but as I've already stated I do not want that.

I don't want to live in an Islamic society, either. But neither do I want to live in a Southern Baptist soicety or an Orthodox society.

 

[archer75]

I don't want to live in an Islamic society, either. But neither do I want to live in a Southern Baptist soicety or an Orthodox society.

Agreed, but I'd put Islamic at the very bottom of the list.

 

[dzheremi]

I don't want to live in an Islamic society, either. But neither do I want to live in a Southern Baptist soicety or an Orthodox society.

It's a good thing we both live in a secular society, then. Let's keep it that way.

 

[FireDragon76]

His avowed inspiration was Islam itself, specifically the numerous Islamic terrorist attacks in Europe.

According to historians and experts that have looked at the pattern of white people committing terrorist attacks, they really begin in the 1990's with the Oklahoma City bombing. The attacker in NZ specifically mentions being inspired by the murders by Dylan Roof at Emmanuel AME in Charleston, South Carolina, which is downright satanic as far as I'm concerned.

 

[JosephZ]

None of it, and I'd like to keep it that way. If I wanted to live in an Islamic society I could conceivably go do that, but as I've already stated I do not want that.

The reason I asked is because you automatically discount the views of those in this forum and immediately embrace the views of your Coptic, Syriac, Armenian, and other Middle Eastern/North African coreligionists. Should we really believe everything we hear before we’ve had the opportunity to experience it for ourselves?

 

[Nithavela]

My advice is basically go nowhere near any of the more "free-speechy" politics servers. By free-speechy I mean the ones that have no-moderation channels. My space is mostly philosophy/religion servers and some around specific games and fandoms but yeah I am little bit alarmed at how some pretty dark stuff has started creeping into a lot of them.

But I love Discord as a platform, its basically my modern IRC equivalent and pretty addictive to spend time talking to people like the old days but in a much more versatile format.

Its a very fine place to meet fellow gamers and have your conversations spied on.