NZ fascist terrorist's manifesto

dzheremi

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The reason I asked is because you automatically discount the views of those in this forum and immediately embrace the views of your Coptic, Syriac, Armenian, and other Middle Eastern/North African coreligionists. Should we really believe everything we hear before we’ve had the opportunity to experience it for ourselves?

Of course I believe them. The people of the parish in which I was received were all immigrants except the very youngest (ages 0 to 12, at the time), who were born here to parents who had immigrated, so they were not talking about how life was in Egypt or Sudan in the Ottoman times or whatever, but as recently as a few years ago.

What you are asking is an epistemological question (how do we know what we know), and your unwritten suggestion is that I ought to experience life in these places first and then decide whether or not to believe the people I know vs. the people in this forum who are arguing against me. This is ridiculous, of course --not only is this not the standard that the people I'm arguing with are held to (why don't you ask FireDragon76 how much of her life she has spent as a gay Imam in Paris, since that's her example of how tolerant Islam can be? I'm going to guess it is also zero, and that she probably also knows zero gay Parisian Imams personally, but has heard of their existence), but it presumes that if I were to go to Egypt, I would receive the same treatment as a native Coptic person by virtue of being in communion with them, even though I'm not Coptic myself and so would be treated as the western tourist that I would be.

HG Bishop Thomas of El Quseya gave a talk at the Hudson Institute some ten years ago (I'd link it, but I can't find the full video anymore, only a short introduction) during which there was a Q & A section wherein a non-Egyptian student of Egyptian sociological research said something along the lines of "I've been to Egypt and did not notice any of the extremism that you are talking about among the people, who were all very friendly and kind to me. How do you explain this?" HG answered with something like "This is disturbing to me because if a person does not see the extremism, then it shows how the extremism is normalized. The extremist can be very nice and is still extreme to others." In other words, what the Western person is treated to is a nice ride on a camel, a view of the pyramids, a walk through the souk, and more things that are all very pleasant, because the people themselves (the Egyptian people generally) are very nice and friendly. This does not get to the sectarian divide that led to the gizya non-Muslim tax being reintroduced in some villages; the attacks on churches and monasteries; the murder of priests; etc. Am I supposed to not believe these things actually happened, even though there is documented evidence that they did, just because I didn't/wouldn't see them myself? That is an undue burden in light of the evidence that does exist, both in the life stories of the people in my parish and across the MENA region in general, where there are many persecutions at different levels from the followers of Islam and the governments that legally sanction and sometimes participate directly in those persecutions, which are as they are because Islam is as it is, not as well-meaning westerners who seem to think of it as a misunderstood Protestant Christian sect in hijabs would like it to be.
 
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JosephZ

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The people of the parish in which I was received were all immigrants except the very youngest (ages 0 to 12, at the time), who were born here to parents who had immigrated, so they were not talking about how life was in Egypt or Sudan in the Ottoman times or whatever, but as recently as a few years ago.
What has been happening in Egypt and Sudan in recent years? Do you think that recent changes may have an affect on the life of Christians living in those regions?

This does not get to the sectarian divide that led to the gizya non-Muslim tax being reintroduced in some villages; the attacks on churches and monasteries; the murder of priests; etc. Am I supposed to not believe these things actually happened, even though there is documented evidence that they did, just because I didn't/wouldn't see them myself?
There's no doubt that things like you describe are taking place, but who's reintroducing the jizya tax and attacking the churches and killing the priests in the examples you provided?
 
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mark kennedy

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we do not live in a medieval culture today and it is easy to judge. But this guy was a vigilante not a crusader submitted to God and King. The First crusade was actually more an act of self defence against the advance of Islam into what was a Christian province of the Byzantine empire before its conquest. After the crusades Islam was in retreat.
Yes, let's not forget the Islamic world did go all the way to Vienna under Suleiman I. There is some give and take there.
 
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dzheremi

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What has been happening in Egypt and Sudan in recent years?

Lots of things have been in flux in Egypt with the rise of the MB to the presidency and then their removal, which the Copts paid dearly for in both cases, especially since the MB Salafists blamed the Copts directly for the military takeover, completely ignoring the demographic reality of Egypt that would've required the Copts to be several times their actual number to control the 'plot' as they supposedly did (NB: government figures put Copts at around 5.5 to 6 million; the CIA factbook and other non-Egyptian sources put that at approximately 10% of society, which would be around 10 million by now; the protests that led to the removal of the MB were estimated at 14 million -- so every Coptic person down to the babies would need to be in them, and then they would need to control an additional 4-8 million Muslims, telling them to go protest...); this rumor nevertheless led to rampant anti-Christian violence among the now-disenfranchised MB Salafists. The reaction was to destroy everything Christian that they could get their hands on, as you can read about here. You will note how bad the sectarianism can be, in that the Muslims in one version of the narrative concerning the cause of the violence in that particular village were more offended at the idea of a Christian cross being painted on a building belonging to al-Azhar than a swastika! Quite simply, these people hate Christianity for theological reasons (their religion tells them to), and it is transfered to hate of the people around them who practice it. That's by no means unique to Egypt, but it is a strongly sectarian society.

Do you think that recent changes may have an affect on the life of Christians living in those regions?

Sure. How could they not when some Muslims have this narrative where the Copts essentially took 'their' president away, and are responsible for the Rabaa massacre where MB supporters were murdered (by the government), and so on? The Coptic people are a scapegoat for the reality that Muslims themselves just really didn't like the MB regime. Morsi was incompetent and disliked by many people, but is still beloved by hardcore Islamists. The MB Salafi movement doesn't really go away; it's just like a game of "whack a mole", where you have to crush it whenever it raises its head. And when it is crushed, the Copts get blamed, even when they're not in the government in anything like what you'd expect if the government were proportionally representative of the citizenry, and when Copts actually try to take office the very same MB supporters don't allow it, and openly say that they don't want the governor (or whatever; it's not like they'll ever rise higher than that anyway) because he is a Copt. The Salafis dominated the protest at that link, as they do many in the areas with high Coptic populations (Qena is one of the highest, at 35%).

This is the reality of what my coreligionists deal with in Egypt. Islam on the ground is ugly and violent. They think they have a right to treat Coptic people however they want, that Coptic blood is cheap, and in a way the world tries to say the same by freaking out when a mosque is shot up (which is good, lest anyone think I believe otherwise; we should all join in harshly condemning these kinds of attacks; it is not the Christian way to say, "Well you did it to me/my people, so I will rejoice when you taste a bit of what you serve us", as though the people of the Christchurch mosques are the same as the Salafis in Egypt -- they are not, and the Coptic Orthodox Church recognizes that, and will ring their bells at noon in NZ on Sunday to recognize and mourn the loss of life), but reporting on the destruction of Christian lives and property in the "Muslim world" as though it is everyday routine sectarian conflict. That ought to tell you something about the problems of Egypt and the region in general: what the Muslims do the others is occasionally a news item, but does not prompt the reflection on the direction of entire societies as the Christchurch mosque shootings do in Western societies. This is a plus for Western societies, definitely, but the same is not possible in the Islamic world because of course Muslims dominating all others is what is supposed to happen according to Islam.

Here, an actual Coptic priest can probably explain it better. Our grievances come from the place of Islam in society (a lack of truly secular and pluralistic values), and what that means for us directly as a Church and as a people who live in that society natively.

So here is Fr. Zakaria Butros' famous "10 demands" speech, which will lay it out in a manner very similar to how Muslim leaders talk about Christians and other non-Muslims (read: it's very brusque and kind of shocking...even more so if you know Arabic ;)):


There's no doubt that things like you describe are taking place, but who's reintroducing the jizya tax and attacking the churches and killing the priests in the examples you provided?

Muslim extremists practicing Islam according to the supremacist interpretation as doled out in their mosques and institutions like al-Azhar (probably the premier source of Sunni learning in the Muslim world). These are the people who chant things like "The Copts are our guests!" at their stupid rallies. It is very easy to inflame them just by existing, and even more so if you have some preexisting conflict as you can read about the murder of Mohammed Mahmoud and the resulting violence in one of the earlier-provided links. That's a snapshot of how all this starts: the Muslims presume to be better than the Christians, because their religion and the state's law (which is based upon the Qur'an and the Shari'a) says so, and as a result any resistance to what is taken to be the natural order of things -- where Christians are below Muslims in every conceivable interaction and way -- is met with tremendous aggression. Islam is an aggressive supremacist religio-political ideology. That is it in action in the places where it predominates, which is a very good illustration of why we should resist it, as it really cannot coexist easily with other religions and people.

Now, the same can be said about Christianity depending on the context (just to preempt the obvious and stupid "But what about Christianity?????" non-reply that will probably come anyway), but what is not deniable is that Christianity at least provides space for the growth of secular civil society (whether or not any one particular society actually nurtures such a development or not; that's up to the people, and it's definitely been a mixed bag). There is no wisdom from Muhammad or his god equal to Jesus' command that we render unto God that which is God's and unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. Instead, Muhammad was the writer of political pacts and constitutions (all of which place Muslims at the top of the heap, naturally), and his successors followed his example. Again, the problem is that this is Islam; its theocratic nature is not avoidable but that Muslims should actually want to live in a secular society, as is the case in a few places (e.g., Lebanon, Jordan, the Muslim-majority ex-USSR states), but in those places that secularism is always threatened by those who take the Qur'an and the other Muslim sources much more seriously. The Lebanese army has had to fight against militants in Tripoli recently, for instance. Say whatever you want about any religion, but you just do not see this sort of thing in Christian majority societies in the modern world. Many will say "Of course you don't see that because the Church has been neutered/is kept out of politics", which is fine and true for the most part since these are secular Christian-majority societies, but that's kind of the point: the traditional Muslim view doesn't even have such a divide between the secular and the religious, hence secularism will always have a hard time gaining ground in the Islamic lands, because it's quite simply against their religion. They have to want it more than they want to see their god's law acknowledged and followed everywhere, and that's a tall order for the traditional Muslim. (Gay imams in Paris and such obviously don't factor in, since that is also against Islam.)

Again, the problem is Islam itself. Go ahead and say I'm being "essentialist" or whatever silly ten-cent word, if you wish (whoever reads this; not you in particular, JosephZ), but going back to the sources you find an explicitly political expansionist mission, no "if a city does not receive you, wipe your feet and move on to one that will." It's less great commission and more Mongol horde, and I don't think pointing to exceptions changes that, because Muhammad (the example for all mankind) didn't make exceptions but that he and his community could directly benefit from them in some way, as by extracting tribute/jizya from non-Muslims in exchange for their being 'protected'. (Islam is very mafia-like in that way.)
 
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dzheremi

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p.s. - I apologize for not having links for every claim in the previous post, such as the government figure of Coptic people. That's a commonly-known statistic in the Coptic world (because many feel slighted that they are under-counted), but the only places I could find it online with a quick Google search were hidden behind pay walls and hence kinda useless.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I have a lot of thoughts currently having gone through this thread, but am not entirely sure how to express some of them.

By and large my thoughts turn to Romans chapter 12, or to Luther's dichotomy between the theology of glory and the theology of the cross, to King's statements about how hate cannot drive out hate, only love can do that.

I subscribe to an ethos that, as a Christian, it is preferable for me to be the victim of violence than the perpetrator; that it is better to be oppressed than doing the oppressing. The call to life in Christ is a call to a life defined by the cross, to share in the sufferings of others in imitation of Christ. Which is why we are told to turn the other cheek when we are struck, and not to retaliate. It's why St. Paul in Romans says that we are live peaceably with all insofar as it is up to us, we are to be a people of peace even in this violent world.

It is the pursuit of glory and the rule of fear that lay as the antithesis of faith. Because power and glory always go hand-in-hand with fear, and with fear hate, and with these every kind of sin and act of inhumanity against our fellow man. To place power and glory as our objective means obstacles between us and power, between us and the glory we desire, are unacceptable. The rule by fear, hate, and anger allows us follow the broad path toward power and glory, toward forfeiting our soul in order to gain the world.

After all when power and glory are the objective, it is ultimately between us and them. And, of course, the more power, the more glory we seek to attain the narrower that us becomes and wider that them becomes--indeed the chief end here is ultimately not any us at all, but only me. And therein lay the dark pits of hell, the empty grey city, the graveyard where we bury ourselves alone, in our own great mausoleum. We built it with our own hands, by dismissing others, championing ourselves, having attained the prize we so desperately wanted--ourselves.

And that is the great achievement of power and glory, hell. As heaven, and the One who rules all things from it, is its opposite; as Christ Himself says to the religious elites, "Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and prostitutes are entering God's kingdom ahead of you" (Matthew 21:31) For whoever seeks his life shall lose it, but whoever forsakes it shall find it. Every valley shall be raised up, and every mountain laid low. Heaven is not the place where men have sought glory, but the weakness of the cross. "The greatest among you is your slave."

"To endure the cross is not a tragedy; it is the suffering which is the fruit of an exclusive allegiance to Jesus Christ. When it comes, it is not an accident, but a necessity. It is not the sort of suffering which is inseparable from this mortal life, but the suffering which is an essential part of the specifically Christian life. It is not suffering per se but suffering-and-rejection, and not rejection for any cause or conviction of our own, but rejection for the sake of Christ." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer

-CryptoLutheran
 
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mindlight

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I have a lot of thoughts currently having gone through this thread, but am not entirely sure how to express some of them.

By and large my thoughts turn to Romans chapter 12, or to Luther's dichotomy between the theology of glory and the theology of the cross, to King's statements about how hate cannot drive out hate, only love can do that.

I subscribe to an ethos that, as a Christian, it is preferable for me to be the victim of violence than the perpetrator; that it is better to be oppressed than doing the oppressing. The call to life in Christ is a call to a life defined by the cross, to share in the sufferings of others in imitation of Christ. Which is why we are told to turn the other cheek when we are struck, and not to retaliate. It's why St. Paul in Romans says that we are live peaceably with all insofar as it is up to us, we are to be a people of peace even in this violent world.

It is the pursuit of glory and the rule of fear that lay as the antithesis of faith. Because power and glory always go hand-in-hand with fear, and with fear hate, and with these every kind of sin and act of inhumanity against our fellow man. To place power and glory as our objective means obstacles between us and power, between us and the glory we desire, are unacceptable. The rule by fear, hate, and anger allows us follow the broad path toward power and glory, toward forfeiting our soul in order to gain the world.

After all when power and glory are the objective, it is ultimately between us and them. And, of course, the more power, the more glory we seek to attain the narrower that us becomes and wider that them becomes--indeed the chief end here is ultimately not any us at all, but only me. And therein lay the dark pits of hell, the empty grey city, the graveyard where we bury ourselves alone, in our own great mausoleum. We built it with our own hands, by dismissing others, championing ourselves, having attained the prize we so desperately wanted--ourselves.

And that is the great achievement of power and glory, hell. As heaven, and the One who rules all things from it, is its opposite; as Christ Himself says to the religious elites, "Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and prostitutes are entering God's kingdom ahead of you" (Matthew 21:31) For whoever seeks his life shall lose it, but whoever forsakes it shall find it. Every valley shall be raised up, and every mountain laid low. Heaven is not the place where men have sought glory, but the weakness of the cross. "The greatest among you is your slave."

"To endure the cross is not a tragedy; it is the suffering which is the fruit of an exclusive allegiance to Jesus Christ. When it comes, it is not an accident, but a necessity. It is not the sort of suffering which is inseparable from this mortal life, but the suffering which is an essential part of the specifically Christian life. It is not suffering per se but suffering-and-rejection, and not rejection for any cause or conviction of our own, but rejection for the sake of Christ." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer

-CryptoLutheran

Yesterday I was attacked on the street by a drunk white Western thug who hit me twice. I turned the other cheek to avoid a fight. But there comes a point when you have to make a stand and make clear your right to self defence. After the second time he hit me I made clear that was his last freebie and he backed off.

Western society is uniquely vulnerable to Muslim bully boys used to intimidating politicians and individuals with fear tactics.

Quite simply with bullies you sometimes have to take a stand. It is no different with Islam which has only really ever expanded by violence and birth rate.

But this resistance to Islam needs to be done through the proper channels and not by vigilante actions like in NZ
 
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SummerMadness

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When you use the same language as a white supremacist, one should not be surprised if you are compared to a white supremacist.

"Congress's vote to deny the crisis on the southern border is a vote against reality. It’s against reality. It is a tremendous national emergency. It is a tremendous crisis. [...] People hate the word 'invasion,' but that’s what it is. It’s an invasion of drugs and criminals and people. We have no idea who they are, but we capture them because border security is so good. But they’re put in a very bad position, and we’re bursting at the seams."​
- Donald Trump, 2018-03-15​

"Well lads, it’s time to stop [posting online] and time to make a real life effort post. I will carry out and attack against the invaders, and will even live stream the attack via Facebook. [...] We must crush immigration and deport those invaders already living on our soil, [...] It is not just a matter of our prosperity, but the very survival of our people."​
- New Zealand Shooter​
 
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jkjk

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According to historians and experts that have looked at the pattern of white people committing terrorist attacks, they really begin in the 1990's with the Oklahoma City bombing. The attacker in NZ specifically mentions being inspired by the murders by Dylan Roof at Emmanuel AME in Charleston, South Carolina, which is downright satanic as far as I'm concerned.
If people are making that argument, it's pretty shoddy scholarship on their part. There is a wide range of extreme right wing groups, many of which share very few similarities with each other. Some groups want to return the US or whatever country they are in to a prior state, before the country was subjected to the machinations and tyranny of a secret cabal or "new world order." The sovereign citizen movement is one such example. There is nothing inherently racial about many of these groups' ideologies.

Then you have ethno-nationalist groups that want to purify their country and get rid of the minority "pollution." Often the avowed means to this end is a racial holy war (RAHOWA). Some of these groups are nominally Christian. Others are pagan. There is a lot of variation and factionalism.

Regarding OKC, even the OKC bombing was inspired by prior events. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols specifically mentioned a desire for revenge for Ruby Ridge and WACO. To say that OKC was the start of "white people committing terrorist attacks" is simply intellectual laziness.
 
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