NZ fascist terrorist's manifesto

Ignatius the Kiwi

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Muslim majority in France projected in 40 years

She's likely referring to this article.

I don't know about 40 years but she's not wrong to suggest if current demographics continue Muslims will eventually become a majority in a country like France through not only birthrates but immigration.

Do you consider this an Alt-Right talking point? I simply consider it a possibility and a bad one at that. Does this make me Alt-Right?
 
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archer75

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It is unfortunate that, like all deranged movements, the alt-right expresses some legitimate gripes, concerns, and hopes. As it seems to me, those are the hooks that get people involved in the deranged hatred (for all I know, this is how it always works). It's important to let people know that agreeing with a concern is not the same as identifying with a violent and incoherent movement.
 
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essentialsaltes

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Do you consider this an Alt-Right talking point?

I don't know if it's alt-right, but it's exactly in line with the terrorist's ideas about white Europeans being replaced by non-whites.

Suggesting that demographic trends should be solved by 'building an army' is icky.
 
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essentialsaltes

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If it's alt-right to not want to live in an Islamic society, then I am alt-right, and so are many Muslims, and all of you should be too.

How about a secular state like France that happens to be majority Muslim?
 
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dzheremi

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How about a secular state like France that happens to be majority Muslim?

If it's truly secular, then it won't matter who's in the numeric majority. I have my doubts about the long-term sustainability of such an arrangement in a modern Muslim-majority nation, however.

Islam has never, ever created nor sustained anything that is even slightly compatible with the modern definition of a secular state, and has generally only been dragged to a place of equitable power-sharing with non-Muslims when it has to, as at Ta'if, Saudi Arabia in 1989 in the negotiations to end the Lebanese Civil War.

The fundamentals of Islam in all of its traditional sources on such matters such as the Constitution of Medina (supposedly authored by Muhammad himself) or the Pact of 'Umar are pretty much the exact opposite of what they would need to be to create such a society, so it's not like this is a mistake or that Muslims just haven't been allowed to develop properly to reach the point of having true secularism. Secularism is antithetical to the traditional Islamic view of the world.

To be frank about it, the more Muslims you generally get in a given society, the more the western idea of a secular society goes out the window, as we are seeing happen now in more and more places. What they offer instead are at best essentially modifications on the Turkish millet system, which I'm pretty sure don't satisfy anyone's idea of what a truly secular and pluralistic society ought to look like.
 
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FireDragon76

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If it's alt-right to not want to live in an Islamic society, then I am alt-right, and so are many Muslims, and all of you should be too.

I don't want to live in any theocracy.

If it's truly secular, then it won't matter who's in the numeric majority. I have my doubts about the long-term sustainability of such an arrangement in a modern Muslim-majority nation, however.

Islam has never, ever created nor sustained anything that is even slightly compatible with the modern definition of a secular state, and has generally only been dragged to a place of equitable power-sharing with non-Muslims when it has to, as at Ta'if, Saudi Arabia in 1989 in the negotiations to end the Lebanese Civil War.

The fundamentals of Islam in all of its traditional sources on such matters such as the Constitution of Medina (supposedly authored by Muhammad himself) or the Pact of 'Umar are pretty much the exact opposite of what they would need to be to create such a society, so it's not like this is a mistake or that Muslims just haven't been allowed to develop properly to reach the point of having true secularism. Secularism is antithetical to the traditional Islamic view of the world.

To be frank about it, the more Muslims you generally get in a given society, the more the western idea of a secular society goes out the window, as we are seeing happen now in more and more places. What the offer instead are at best essentially modifications on the Turkish millet system, which I'm pretty sure don't satisfy anyone's idea of what a truly secular and pluralistic society ought to look like.

You know Paris has a gay imam now? I don't think it could never happen that we could have a secular, liberal Muslim-majority state. Turkey came very close, after all.

Paris gets gay-friendly 'mosque'

In addition, Muslims in the US supported gay marriage far more than white conservative evangelicals. I don't think Muslims are incapable of understanding secularism or liberalism just because of their religion.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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I don't know if it's alt-right, but it's exactly in line with the terrorist's ideas about white Europeans being replaced by non-whites.

Suggesting that demographic trends should be solved by 'building an army' is icky.

It is in line with what this terrorist said. This is the problem, he makes many who are peaceful and do fear demographic replacement connected to him by a shared belief. I find disturbing that I and this terrorist have similar beliefs on this point.

Still I would stand by my assertion Candace Owens is not Alt-right. Nor did she truly inspire this guy. He named her to take her down by association for the reason of division and causing conflict.

How about a secular state like France that happens to be majority Muslim?

I wouldn't trust a Muslim majority nation to remain secular for long. Islam at it's core cannot accept secularism as it displaces Allah's law to a secondary level.
 
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FireDragon76

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It is unfortunate that, like all deranged movements, the alt-right expresses some legitimate gripes, concerns, and hopes. As it seems to me, those are the hooks that get people involved in the deranged hatred (for all I know, this is how it always works). It's important to let people know that agreeing with a concern is not the same as identifying with a violent and incoherent movement.

Right. Affirmation isn't the same as approval.
 
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essentialsaltes

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I find disturbing that I and this terrorist have similar beliefs on this point.

So do I.

I wouldn't trust a Muslim majority nation to remain secular for long. Islam at it's core cannot accept secularism as it displaces Allah's law to a secondary level.

Right. 'They' cannot be assimilated. Just like in the manifesto.
 
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dzheremi

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I don't want to live in any theocracy.



You know Paris has a gay imam and a gay mosque now? I don't think it could never happen that we could have a secular, liberal Muslim-majority state. Turkey came very close, after all.

Paris can have a million gay imams and it would not change my point, and if the best you have to offer for your example of a truly secular and liberal Muslim-majority state is Turkey, then you probably agree with the point I was making more than you realize. Calling Turkey secular and liberal because Attaturk and Co. tried to replace Islamism with secular nationalism intertwined with Islamism is is like saying we can have a truly secular and liberal Christian theocracy in the United States after we get rid of all the dirty, dirty Jews. In truth, the final application of the jizya taxes upon non-Muslims occurred in Turkey with the "Wealth Tax" (Varlik Vergisi), which was levied against Armenians, Greeks, and Jews in 1942-1944, well after the establishment of the 'secular' Turkish republic. It was only repealed due to international pressure, confirming what I wrote about how Islam needs to be dragged kicking and screaming into the modern world.

Turkey being any kind of model of anything good makes me want to puke.
 
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dzheremi

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FireDragon76

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No. Just like in their primary interpretive sources.

Sheesh...Do you feel good spreading the kind of willful ignorance and disingenuous conflation on these issues that helps virtually assure more violence of this type in the future, essentialsaltes?


That's not different than a Baptist selectively quoting the Old Testament, though, really, to justify their version of holy war, or whatever barbarity they happen to agree with. It might sound authoritative but it only is authoritative within the particular sect the (hypothetical) Muslim would belong to.

Surely as an Orthodox Christian you realize that religions are more than exercises in exegesis?
 
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durangodawood

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Hmm. Using the Hagia Sophia as a symbol of the dominance of one group over another...where have we seen that before? Maybe in the actions of those who put minarets atop it in the first place? Funny how the extremes on any end always resemble each other in some way that would make them incredibly upset to realize.....
The Muslim conquest of Constantinople wasnt "extreme" in any way. It was the mainstream. Just like the Christian conquest of the "new world", or the Moorish conquest of Spain, or the Christian reconquest. Does that justify anything? I dont think so.

Wierdos who go around murdering people in their church.mosque.synagogue... now that is extreme.
 
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dzheremi

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That's not different than a Baptist selectively quoting the Old Testament, though, really, to justify their version of holy war, or whatever barbarity they happen to agree with. It might sound authoritative but it only is authoritative within the particular sect the (hypothetical) Muslim would belong to.

Surely as an Orthodox Christian you realize that religions are more than exercises in exegesis?

Ahahahahahahahaha.

Yeah, it's just considered authoritative to almost 90% of all Muslims on the entire planet. Totally comparable to a Baptist selectively quoting the Old Testament.

Get outta here with that...I cannot believe you people sometimes...hahaha..."it's JUST Sahih al-Bukhari!" Hahahaha.

And invoking Orthodoxy at the end...incredible. I don't even know what to say. Yes, I realize that religions are more than exercises in exegesis. I'm not sure what that has to do with mainstream Sunni Islam and its deified book, however, since that garbage certainly has nothing to do with Orthodoxy.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Right. 'They' cannot be assimilated. Just like in the manifesto.

Do Muslims want to be assimilated into French culture which is equal parts Secular and Catholic? I'm sure some do but the inherent contradiction between Islam and the west itself makes assimilation difficult. Look at the UK where a Muslim Mum was able to pressure a school into getting rid of it's LGBT curriculum.
 
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FireDragon76

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Do Muslims want to be assimilated into French culture which is equal parts Secular and Catholic? I'm sure some do but the inherent contradiction between Islam and the west itself makes assimilation difficult. Look at the UK where a Muslim Mum was able to pressure a school into getting rid of it's LGBT curriculum.

Seriously? Got a link?

Ahahahahahahahaha.

Yeah, it's just considered authoritative to almost 90% of all Muslims on the entire planet. Totally comparable to a Baptist selectively quoting the Old Testament.

Get outta here with that...I cannot believe you people sometimes...hahaha..."it's JUST Sahih al-Bukhari!" Hahahaha.

That's true but at one time most Protestants thought a woman's place was in the home, and look how things changed.
 
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