NZ fascist terrorist's manifesto

[FireDragon76]

According to this article , it was not only Muslims that protested the school's LGBT-inclusive curriculum:

LGBT lessons suspended after complaints from Christian and Muslim parents - Premier

Primary school stops gay teacher's LGBT lessons after 300 Muslim parents protest

I actually think the Muslims are right on this issue mind you.

Really? Why do I get the feeling your issue just amounts to tribalism. They aren't like us so therefore they aren't OK... because. I am skeptical it has much to do with actually believing in western values, the sort of things it looks like this curriculum is trying to teach kids.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

According to this article , it was not only Muslims that protested the school's LGBT-inclusive curriculum:

LGBT lessons suspended after complaints from Christian and Muslim parents - Premier



Really? Why do I get the feeling your issue just amounts to tribalism. They aren't like us so therefore they aren't OK... because. I am skeptical it has much to do with actually believing in western values, the sort of things it looks like this curriculum is trying to teach kids.

I don't believe for a second the presence of Christians being against LGBT lessons affected the decision of this school.

Yes really. I have a Christian standard of ethics. I don't believe in teaching immorality as something to be accepted. To reduce my opinions to tribalism (as if you or anyone is immune from being part of a particular tribe) doesn't do justice to my thought here.

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't believe for a second the presence of Christians being against LGBT lessons affected the decision of this school.

Yes really. I have a Christian standard of ethics. I don't believe in teaching immorality as something to be accepted. To reduce my opinions to tribalism (as if you or anyone is immune from being part of a particular tribe) doesn't do justice to my thought here.

But you have assumed a counter-cultural position, just as many Muslims have. You reject the dominant values of western cultures, which favor secular ethics over exclusively religious based morality.

 

[dzheremi]

FireDragon76, can you please move whatever discussion you are looking to have about the acceptance and promotion of homosexuality as a western value and/or the 'tribal' rejection of this to some other thread? This thread is meant to be about the NZ fascist's reasoning for his rampage, not this gay stuff.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

People can get over things their gods tell them to do.

 

[FireDragon76]

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

People can get over things their gods tell them to do.

I wouldn't necessarily put it that way, but my religious tradition understands ethics as being properly human, and we believe this is the point of Jesus' teaching using simple, earthy parables.

I think a Muslim can understand secularism. Their own holy book says that there should be no compulsion in religion. That is the essence of liberal secularism.

 

[dzheremi]

Saying that they can and showing that they will do so/are doing so are two very different things. Comparisons between Islam and Christianity on this point are not helpful or realistic.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

But you have assumed a counter-cultural position, just as many Muslims have. You reject the dominant values of western cultures, which favor secular ethics over exclusively religious based morality.

True enough, i do reject a lot of the modern values of the west but I'm content not being in power. Christianity from the beginning was never about political power and could thrive in environments when it faced opposition. Islam on the other hand has not been like that. It has been a political force since Muhammad assumed that mantle and dominated through violent political force throughout all of it's history. The Quran makes it very clear Allah expects his law to be implemented above the law or concern of any religion or nation. This is partly why I don't believe Islam can easily be part of the west. You would have to reinterpret nearly everything about Islam and make it a Gnostic shell barely resembling it's former self. Much like you do with Lutheranism.

Also I would suggest the foundations of modern western values are Christian in character but go far in excess of what Christendom taught or expected. Christianity is not so far gone from the west that we could not return to it one day instead of the anti-theistic secularism which pervades many countries, like, France for instance.

 

[FireDragon76]

The Quran makes it very clear Allah expects his law to be implemented above the law or concern of any religion or nation.

I have heard Muslim imams in the US say that's not the case. It's sufficient a nation has just laws.

It is true Islam has been a political force, but I don't believe it's true it is merely a political force. And I think the point of dialogue between the West and the Muslim world is over the sort of righteousness that Muslims seek, if it can be achieved on the earth within western pluralism. After all, my religion also believes in righteousness on the earth, that is not a completely alien idea to Christianity.

This is partly why I don't believe Islam can easily be part of the west. You would have to reinterpret nearly everything about Islam and make it a Gnostic shell barely resembling it's former self. Much like you do with Lutheranism.

One, this is just not true. I draw heavily from Dietrich Bonhoeffer's own theology, especially his ethical reflection. Are you saying he was not a Lutheran? Secondly, it is rude. Lutheranism is not just a hollow shell for me, but the place I encounter Jesus, even if imperfectly.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I have heard Muslim Imams in the US say that's not the case. It's sufficient a nation has just laws.

It is true Islam has been a political force, but I don't believe it's true it is merely a political force. And I think the point of dialogue between the West and East is over the sort of righteousness that Muslims seek, if it can be achieved on the earth within western pluralism. After all, my religion also believes in righteousness on the earth, that is not a completely alien idea to Christianity.

Islam itself is a political force, tied directly to it's founding. I don't take the words of westernized Muslims whom are minorities within a country to be the ultimate interpretation of the religion and nor do they represent the majority of their fellow believers found in the Mid-east, Africa and South-East Asia.

Islam has as it's central goal nothing less than the dominance of Allah's law and how could it be anything less? If this were wrong of Muslims, then one has to wonder what the first Caliphs and Muhammad had in mind when they conquered territory they had no right or claim to. Is it only now, when the west has the dominant status in the world and exerts pressure on them that Muslims have apprehended the true teaching of their religion? I doubt it.

One, this is just not true. I draw heavily from Dietrich Bonhoeffer's own theology. Are you saying he was not a Lutheran? Secondly, it is rude. Lutheranism is not just a hollow shell for me, but the place I encounter Jesus, even if imperfectly.

Based our past encounters this is my belief concerning you. If you tell me Christ rose from the dead physically and literally for our salvation I will take back what I said and apologize.

 

[FireDragon76]

Islam itself is a political force, tied directly to it's founding. I don't take the words of westernized Muslims whom are minorities within a country to be the ultimate interpretation of the religion and nor do they represent the majority of their fellow believers found in the Mid-east, Africa and South-East Asia.

Islam has as it's central goal nothing less than the dominance of Allah's law and how could it be anything less? If this were wrong of Muslims, then one has to wonder what the first Caliphs and Muhammad had in mind when they conquered territory they had no right or claim to. Is it only now, when the west has the dominant status in the world and exerts pressure on them that Muslims have apprehended the true teaching of their religion? I doubt it.

You are engaging in philosophical essentialism and appeal to tradition. Whose to say the gay Imam in Paris hasn't captured something uniquely true about Islam? How exactly is he "inauthentic" anymore than the Muslim in Indonesia who believes in Allah but also believes in a world inhabited by spirits and magic? (so-called Javanism).

Based our past encounters this is my belief concerning you. If you tell me Christ rose from the dead physically and literally for our salvation I will take back what I said and apologize.

I confess the Nicene Creed, as does my religious denomination.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

You are making an essentialist argument and appeal to tradition. Whose to say the gay Imam in Paris hasn't captured something uniquely true about Islam?

I suppose he captures the fact that gay Imams are only safe in western countries.

I confess the Nicene Creed, as does my religious denomination.

Do you interpret the clause about Christ's resurrection to be literal?

 

[FireDragon76]

I suppose he captures the fact that gay Imams are only safe in western countries.




Do you interpret the clause about Christ's resurrection to be literal?

That is asking of me more than the creed itself states (not very Lutheran way to think of things, honestly). Having said that, I do not believe the apostles encounter with Christ after his death was a hallucination or wishful thinking. But beyond this, I hesitate to speculate . I am sure as an Orthodox Christian you can appreciate the importance of mystery? I do not wish to pin my faith on Christ's resurrection in a particular theory, as in Protestant fundamentalism. I am essentially theologically neo-orthodox on this point. My faith in Chrcist's resurrection is not dependent on having a camera recording of an empty tomb, no. If that makes me insufficiently Christian, then I would venture to guess a great many Catholic priests and bishops are probably also not orthodox.

 

[dzheremi]

Whose to say the gay Imam in Paris hasn't captured something uniquely true about Islam?

"Whoever is found conducting himself in the manner of the people of Lot, kill the doer and the receiver." Al Tirmidhi 1:152

"the manner of the people of Lot" refers to the practice of male homosexuality. Al Tirmidhi is among the six authentic books of hadith according to Sunni Islam, which is again almost 90% of all Muslims worldwide.

Sooo...Islam itself says that, according to about 87% of its practitioners and believers. Gay imams everywhere are lucky that this hadith can't necessarily be followed everywhere.

 

[FireDragon76]

"Whoever is found conducting himself in the manner of the people of Lot, kill the doer and the receiver." Al Tirmidhi 1:152

"the manner of the people of Lot" refers to the practice of male homosexuality. Al Tirmidhi is among the six authentic books of hadith according to Sunni Islam, which is again almost 90% of all Muslims worldwide.

Sooo...Islam itself says that, according to about 87% of its practitioners and believers. Gay imams everywhere are lucky that this hadith can't necessarily be followed everywhere.

No doubt that is true. But maybe the rest of the Muslim world has actually got it wrong? That's what I'm arguing. After all, I'm Protestant, I'm used to regarding longstanding religious traditions as wrong on some crucial points. I regard traditionalism for its own sake as premodern. And I believe a Muslim could also understand that as well, and indeed, some have. It's a question of mindset.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Sooo...Islam itself says that

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."

So does the Bible. Seriously, if you are making the case that Islam can't play nice with others, the argument applies just as well to Judaism and Christianity.

Either you are wrong, or you are just as dangerous. Take your pick.

 

[FireDragon76]

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."

So does the Bible. Seriously, if you are making the case that Islam can't play nice with others, the argument applies just as well to Judaism and Christianity.

Either you are wrong, or you are just as dangerous. Take your pick.

For centuries, England executed homosexuals. Mostly the poor ones who had no social connections, but they still did it. Oscar Wilde was sentenced to hard labor in the late Victorian era. And as late as the 60's in Britain, gays were being forced to take hormones and/or face jail time.

 

[dzheremi]

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."

So does the Bible. Seriously, if you are making the case that Islam can't play nice with others, the argument applies just as well to Judaism and Christianity.

Either you are wrong, or you are just as dangerous. Take your pick.

The question was asked: "Whose to say the gay Imam in Paris hasn't captured something uniquely true about Islam?"

You will note that the question I was actually answering is about Islam, NOT Christianity, so your deflection onto a question nobody asked about Christianity is not helpful at all.

 

[essentialsaltes]

The question was asked: "Whose to say the gay Imam in Paris hasn't captured something uniquely true about Islam?"

You will note that the question I was actually answering is about Islam, NOT Christianity, so your deflection onto a question nobody asked about Christianity is not helpful at all.

Sure it is, since much of the conversation is about some allegedly unique property of Islam that makes it particularly icky. And when evidence is sought, someone points to scripture. This is not unique. Who's to say the gay pastors in West Hollywood haven't captured something uniquely true about Christianity?

 

[dzheremi]

Sure it is, since much of the conversation is about some allegedly unique property of Islam that makes it particularly icky. And when evidence is sought, someone points to scripture. This is not unique. Who's to say the gay pastors in West Hollywood haven't captured something uniquely true about Christianity?

I think you've confused the questioner's question with my answer. FireDragon76 asked if gay imams might not have in some way captured something that is uniquely true about Islam. I responded that Islam commands the death of gays, so it is the doctrinal stance of Islam itself that would say that there is nothing true of the way gay Imams practice their Islam, since it is primarily concerned with meting out temporal punishment for being gay. I didn't claim that this was unique to Islam in the first place, only that Islam itself -- if you judge by the hadith where the clearest instructions are found -- denies these people. Hence my earlier reply about how it doesn't matter how many gay Imams there are. Gay imams and their liberal Lutheran friends don't change the instruction found in al Tirmidhi.