• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.

Nun Automatically Excommunicated For Approving Abortion

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by Michie, May 15, 2010.

  1. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

    +26,817
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
  2. benedictaoo

    benedictaoo Legend

    +7,169
    Catholic
    Private
    But that's the worlds logic Jim, not Christ's.

    Christ showed us that we lay our life down... He showed us the meaning in pain and suffering- the meaning of sacrifice and He showed us how to do that.

    TRUTH is worth dying for.

    Those who try to save their life- will lose it- those who are willing to not worry about this life, will save it.

    Women who die for their children... they are called Saints.

    You have a secular world view, not a Christian world view about this issue, I'm sorry to say.

    The Church does not say we can kill babies to save our own skin, you are in error about this.

    The bishop did not make a mistake... He is not ignorant of the Church's teachings. He called it correctly-- it's you who are in error.
     
  3. benedictaoo

    benedictaoo Legend

    +7,169
    Catholic
    Private
    Thank you for pointing that out. subtle little incorrect things spoken here and there can be so misleading to lurkers who lurk.

    It's not a law, well yeah it is, it's God's law which is eternal- certainly NOT changeable.

    If the pope wanted to change this, he couldn't, he has no power what so ever to change God's laws.

    He can change a church law, like no meat on Friday but he has zero power to change a Comandment of God.
     
  4. benedictaoo

    benedictaoo Legend

    +7,169
    Catholic
    Private
    leave the BABY, Jim, the BABY in there for 20 something weeks and it does have a chance to survive. This is were your argument falls part.
     
  5. Davidnic

    Davidnic Well-Known Member Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +10,687
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    US-American-Solidarity
    I think we need to state something directly: The words Zygote, Fetus, Infant, Toddler, Child, Teenager, Adult, Middle age, Senior Citizen are stages of human development and at no point is the person not human. From the moment of conception a human nature is present. Living things do not become something other than what they are once their cellular life processes start. Viability is not a requirement for a human nature, it is a characteristic of a stage of human development. And lack of it does not make someone less human or disposable.

    I am not saying you are saying otherwise Jim, just making sure that is directly stated.

    So fetus or adult mother, both are persons and both are humans in the image of God.

    That can never be stated enough.
     
  6. JimR-OCDS

    JimR-OCDS God Cannot Be Grasped, Except Through Love

    +1,276
    Catholic
    Married

    David, sorry to hear about your mother.

    However, if the situation were different, your wife and you are told, not only will the pregnancy cost your wife her life, but the child has no chance of making it through to viability. What do you choose?

    This is what the case we're discussing was about.

    It wasn't a case where the fetus would survive. It couldn't because the mother couldn't survive the pregnancy to get to viability.

    Jim
     
  7. JimR-OCDS

    JimR-OCDS God Cannot Be Grasped, Except Through Love

    +1,276
    Catholic
    Married
    Davidnic

    Absolutely agree!

    However calling a zygote a baby, is an emotionally charge way of debating the issue and it lacks
    intellectual credibility on the person who uses such terminology.

    Also agree. However, a fetus is at a different stage of development for a human being. When the fetus is pre-viable and there is a life or death decision to make concerning the mother and the fetus, the mother comes first, especially when she has no chance of carrying the fetus until it can be viable.

    However, ensoulment is a different matter. We don't know when the soul enters the body. That being said, we need to error on the side of life.


    Jim
     
  8. Davidnic

    Davidnic Well-Known Member Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +10,687
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    US-American-Solidarity
    Thank you Jim, don't be sorry. My mother always felt it a blessing that she was given ten years with us the doctors thought impossible. She was at peace with her decision. A kind of impressive impossible peace. She was an amazing woman. Not perfect, but amazing.

    As to the rest, we talked about that before we tried for a baby and in that situation she said she would not kill the baby no matter what. She would attempt to bring the baby to viability even if it did not work and she died. There have been too many times where doctors were wrong about these things and babies are carried to viability against doctors advice or they tell you the baby has a disease and when they are born they do not. Neither of us could agree with the direct killing of an innocent human being with the intent of saving someone.
     
  9. benedictaoo

    benedictaoo Legend

    +7,169
    Catholic
    Private
    and the point David as been making to you is there isn't a true case where not allowing the baby to remain and grow to a stage where it can be delivered is not an option.

    You act like delivering a baby at 5 months instead of extracting it through dismemberment, gives the baby no chance and that's not true Jim. and it's not going to kill a women if she waits another 10 weeks.
     
  10. JimR-OCDS

    JimR-OCDS God Cannot Be Grasped, Except Through Love

    +1,276
    Catholic
    Married
    benedictaoo

    No, David hasn't shown that. The fact is, the case we're talking about is
    one of them.


    You're assuming that the doctors had the option of waiting until viability.

    According to them, they did not otherwise they would have.

    And BTW, I have seen a baby born at 20 weeks as a result of induced labor. They don't dismember it, and the mother delivered it in tact, although it was dead.

    Jim
     
  11. MKJ

    MKJ Contributor

    +676
    Anglican
    Married
    CA-Greens
    Well, we have already addressed ectopic pregnancy, which is exactly this kind of case.
     
  12. benedictaoo

    benedictaoo Legend

    +7,169
    Catholic
    Private
    No. ectopic pregnancy is not. The surgery for that is not to intentionally kill the child.

    If you can remove the out of place baby and replant it, then yo do that.

    But if you can not replant it- you are not directly willfully, purposeful trying to kill it- an abortion- you are!

    The plan of action with an ectopic pregnancy is not to go in and kill the baby- it is to remove it from where it is and hopefully be able to replant it. It is to save the baby, not kill it. sadly- rarely does a baby survive that.

    the intent is not to abort, but to remove it and if you could or can put it where it belongs, you do.

    It is not a situation where the surgery is to kill the baby.

    Abortion is always that.

    The women had an abortion- NOT a surgery to save her life... claiming that is, would be a lie if someone were to say that.

    You can not kill the baby as the way to save the mother. You can't do it... it's. just. not. right.
     
  13. benedictaoo

    benedictaoo Legend

    +7,169
    Catholic
    Private
    That is a still birth... not an abortion... sigh... you are in error Jim and you are taking a pro abortion stand when the mother's life is at risk and this is NOT the Catholic Church's stand... something the Church teaches us is allowable.

    I can understand dissenting from this issue because it is hard, I do not agree with it- but please do not mis lead and claim the Church allows abortions in certain cases, she does not, even when the mother's life is at risk- the Church does not which is why this nun was formally excommunicated by her bishop.

    The proof that the Church does not allow this as a binding matter of our faith is the fact that this nun was excommunicated. That is the proof that proves you are in error Jim.
     
  14. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

    +28,465
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Libertarian
    :confused:
    Does that mean she is going to hell?
     
  15. Davidnic

    Davidnic Well-Known Member Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +10,687
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    US-American-Solidarity
    More on the topic of is abortion ever necessary:
    Dr. Paul A. Byrne, Director of Neonatology and Pediatrics at St. Charles Mercy Hospital in Toledo, Ohio, disputes the claim that an abortion is ever a procedure necessary to save the life of the mother, or carries less risk than birth.

    Dr. Byrne said, "I don't know of any [situation where abortion is necessary to save the life of the mother].

    "I know that a lot of people talk about these things, but I don't know of any. The principle always is preserve and protect the life of the mother and the baby."

    Byrne has the distinction of being a pioneer in the field of neonatology, beginning his work in the field in 1963 and becoming a board-certified neonatologist in 1975. He invented one of the first oxygen masks for babies, an incubator monitor, and a blood-pressure tester for premature babies, which he and a colleague adapted from the finger blood pressure checkers used for astronauts.

    Byrne emphasized that he was not commentating on what the woman's particular treatment should have been under the circumstances, given that she is not his patient.

    "But given just pulmonary hypertension, the answer is no" to abortion, said Byrne.

    Byrne emphasized that the unborn child at 11 weeks gestation would have a negligible impact on the woman's cardiovascular system. He said that pregnancy in the first and second trimesters would not expose a woman with even severe pulmonary hypertension - which puts stress on the heart and the longs - to any serious danger.

    A pregnant mother's cardiovascular system does have "major increases," but they only happen "in the last three months of pregnancy," Byrne explained.

    The point of fetal viability is estimated at anywhere between 21 - 24 weeks, he indicated, at which point a baby can artificially be delivered and have a good shot at surviving. In the meantime the mother's pulmonary hypertension could be treated, even by such simple things as eliminating salt from her diet, exercising, or losing weight.

    "It's not going to be any extra stress on the mother that she can't stand," said Byrne. "Eventually you get to where the baby gets big enough that the baby can live outside the uterus and you don't have to do an abortion."

    "I am only aware of good things happening by doing that. I am not aware of anything bad happening to the mother because the baby was allowed to live."

    "The only reason to kill the baby at 11 weeks is because it is smaller," which makes the abortion easier to perform, he said, not because the mother's life is in immediate danger.

    "I've done this work just about as long as neonatology has existed," said Byrne. "The key is we must protect and preserve life, and we have to do that from conception to the natural end."
     
  16. BelindaP

    BelindaP Senior Contributor

    +664
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    The doctor you are quoting is confusing regular hypertension with pulmonary hypertension, which is a completely different disorder. Pulmonary hypertension kills over half the people who develop it while pregnant. Here is a link to a more informed article than a quote from a doctor who clearly doesn't know what he's talking about.

    SpringerLink - Journal Article
     
  17. MKJ

    MKJ Contributor

    +676
    Anglican
    Married
    CA-Greens

    I think you are defining intent much too broadly here, and it will give you trouble with other parts of your argument.

    Those removing the embryos in ectopic pregnancies do not intend to re-implant them. This is not possible. It is not "rare", it is never never. They might wish they could do it, but they can't. They don't really even intend to care for them in case they survive outside the womb, because there is simply no way to do so.

    I agree with your general point, I think, but if you understand intent like this all kinds of things become permissible.
     
  18. benedictaoo

    benedictaoo Legend

    +7,169
    Catholic
    Private
    If she dies still rejecting the Holy Spirit's call to repent.

    Only God will be able to judge her, we absolutely can not judge her. No way can we judge her... I want you to know that WE, none of us here, or anywhere in the world can judge her but God-- to know if she believes as she does out of ignorance that is not her fault or if God gave her the light to see and she just refused.

    If she dies, knowing this is a sin but choosing to ignore that it is and looks God in the eye, so to speak and says, I was right, I would do it again... then yeah, she's toast.

    But none of us know that- we can only give you a hypothetical.

    The bishop formally excommunicated her to give her some awareness that she needs to repent and understand why she was wrong, it's so she don't go to hell, it is not a declaration she is.

    Now I explained how this works to you in full- there should be no misunderstanding or coming back with anything that is not even remotely related to what I just said.
     
  19. Cl - 35.452

    Cl - 35.452 forgive them Father for they know not what they do

    252
    +14
    Catholic
    Single
    That's brown bread, I assume. ^_^
     
  20. Cl - 35.452

    Cl - 35.452 forgive them Father for they know not what they do

    252
    +14
    Catholic
    Single
    Do you think she will now reject the Catholic Church altogether?
     
Loading...