Nun Automatically Excommunicated For Approving Abortion

[2WhomShallWeGo]

I accept the fact that, as Church law exists today, there cannot be women priests.

I do not agree that bishops, especially when talking outside of their area of expertise and experience, are any more smarter or more knowledgeable than religious sisters or laypeople.

I guess the fact that some religious sisters are smarter and more knowledgeable than some bishops is one reason why some question the idea of women priests (which I, given current Church law, do not.)

Yet the Churches teaching on abortion is clear and has been said over and over again. If one is a catholic one believes the church teaching. If one explicitly rejects church teaching one is not a catholic. that also is church teaching.

 

[2WhomShallWeGo]

David, you didn't have to use a hypothetical.

I just finished reading "The Terrible Hours," which was about the submarine Squalus, which sank in 250 feet of water off the coast of New England, in 1939.

Long story, but as the engine room began to rapidly fill up with water, the one engineer who managed to make it to the next hatch, held on as long as he could to allow other men who further back to make it. However, the water was filling so fast, that had he not closed and sealed the hatch, the control room would've filled and all the men aboard would've died. He had to make a fast decision, those men's lives, or the rest of the crew. He closed and sealed the door, and 26 men who were aft in the sub, drowned.

He lived with guilt all of his life, thinking that perhaps he had no right to save himself and the rest of the crew, while the action he took, killed the other 26 men.

The same is similar in this case. If the hospital doesn't abort the pre-viable fetus, the woman will die as a result of heart failure.

If the woman were your daughter, you tell me that you wouldn't see the logic in the hospital's decision.


Jim

Intrinsic evils like murder do not become unintrinsically evil simply because they involve hardship no matter how hard that hardship. And encouraging people to sin never makes their lives easier only temporarily more pleasant.

 

[2WhomShallWeGo]

BTW, the "Double Effect," principle isn't fallible doctrine, and when Aquinas wrote it as a guideline, he wrote in the context of self-defense against and agressor.

The arguments using the double effect, treat the fetus as the aggressor, which is never the case.

Apply the double effect principle to all medical situations, isn't going to work, unless you're willing to let the mother die. With today's modern medical knowledge, a doctor would be charged with murder for letting a mother die, when he could've saved her,
by aborting a pre-viable fetus who had no chance of survival.

Jim

Violating the courts laws gets in jail, violating Gods....

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Look You are either a catholic aka you either agree with church teaching or not.
The church condemns murder if you don't understand this concept or are unwilling to abide by it, not simply find it hard or difficult, then you have no business calling yourself a catholic.

I'm a compassionate human being first. Ignoring the fact that this mother would've died, trumps my intellectual understanding of Catholic doctrine.

The Pharisees put doctrine before compassion.


Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Intrinsic evils like murder do not become unintrinsically evil simply because they involve hardship no matter how hard that hardship. And encouraging people to sin never makes their lives easier only temporarily more pleasant.

The case wasn't murder.

Had they not performed the abortion, the woman would've died and the fetus as well.

It was a bad situation, where the only choice was to save the life of the mother. This isn't murder.

However, had the doctors done nothing, as many in here suggest, they would've rightfully been charged with manslaughter of the woman.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Violating the courts laws gets in jail, violating Gods....

Its not God's law to allow a person to die when you can do something to save her.

By your logic, all Jewish Doctors are going to hell, because they do not believe that aborting a pre-viable fetus is immoral and in this case, it would be mandatory to save the life of the mother.

What you're saying is, let both mother and the 11 week old fetus die.

In fact, the priest from the Tuscon Dioceses stated just that they other day on the news.

Jim

 

[Fantine]

I am just not sure what Bishop Olmsted's press conferences accomplish.

1) They weaken the Church's position on insisting that doctors and hospitals be allowed "conscience protection," because they demonstrate that they are all too willing to excommunicate a nun who followed her conscience. How can the Church make a convincing argument for conscience protection when they violate that principle themselves?

2) They present an image to the world of a cold, unfeeling Church that would allow a mother to die, leaving five orphaned children, so that an unborn baby with absolutely no chance of survival might live in the womb for another week or two.

So he can hold his press conferences, but I think they hurt the Church's image and weaken its political advocacy in the area of conscience protection.

Of course I think that most of the conservative bishops hurt the Church's image.

 

[2WhomShallWeGo]

I'm a compassionate human being first. Ignoring the fact that this mother would've died, trumps my intellectual understanding of Catholic doctrine.

The Pharisees put doctrine before compassion.


Jim

Compassion without understanding is not compassion. just pleasantries

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I am just not sure what Bishop Olmsted's press conferences accomplish.

1) They weaken the Church's position on insisting that doctors and hospitals be allowed "conscience protection," because they demonstrate that they are all too willing to excommunicate a nun who followed her conscience. How can the Church make a convincing argument for conscience protection when they violate that principle themselves?

2) They present an image to the world of a cold, unfeeling Church that would allow a mother to die, leaving five orphaned children, so that an unborn baby with absolutely no chance of survival might live in the womb for another week or two.

So he can hold his press conferences, but I think they hurt the Church's image and weaken its political advocacy in the area of conscience protection.

Of course I think that most of the conservative bishops hurt the Church's image.

Good points about the conscience issue.

Jim

 

[2WhomShallWeGo]

Its not God's law to allow a person to die when you can do something to save her.

By your logic, all Jewish Doctors are going to hell, because they do not believe that aborting a pre-viable fetus is immoral and in this case, it would be mandatory to save the life of the mother.

What you're saying is, let both mother and the 11 week old fetus die.

In fact, the priest from the Tuscon Dioceses stated just that they other day on the news.

Jim

They will both die one day. I can't shorten ones life as a means to extending the other. Or do you beleive there are exceptions to murdering children?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

They will both die one day. I can't shorten ones life as a means to extending the other. Or do you beleive there are exceptions to murdering children?

By this logic, why send aid to Hatti after the earth quake? They're all going to die one day anyway.


Why stop a person who is about to kill a child, even when it would require us to use lethal force? The child is going to die one day anyway. Just step back and mind our own business. No point in murdering his assailant.


Jim

 

[Davidnic]

Apparently the Nun had her excommunication lifted.

Source: Link

Relevant quote: Sources tell us the nun has since met requirements to have her excommunication lifted

The diocese said a few days ago what those conditions would be:

Since it is the law (i.e., canon law) that has imposed the penalty by virtue of the crime committed, there must be a canonical process for removing the penalty. This is accomplished through Sacramental Confession with a priest. In addition to the absolution from sin confessed, a priest is also to lift the excommunication during the Rite of Penance.

Historically, abortion has been a “reserved sin” in that its absolution and resolution of the penalty have been reserved to a diocesan bishop. However, most diocesan bishops grant to priests of their dioceses the faculty to lift the excommunication.

All priests of the Diocese of Phoenix have been granted this faculty to lift excommunication in cases of abortion. A second and crucial step in the resolution of the excommunication is that there is often grave scandal created by the person’s actions.

In these situations it may be necessary for the excommunicated person to assist in the efforts to repair the scandal they helped create. This would be accomplished through consultation with the diocesan bishop.​

 

[2WhomShallWeGo]

By this logic, why send aid to Hatti after the earth quake? They're all going to die one day anyway.


Why stop a person who is about to kill a child, even when it would require us to use lethal force? The child is going to die one day anyway. Just step back and mind our own business. No point in murdering his assailant.


Jim

No comparison I don't need to kill anyone to lengthen the life of a haitian. As to stopping murder: murder is immoral and a the act on the part of the attempted murderer gives me the right to stop him with potentially even likely lethal force, NOT put 5 bullets in his head to insure his death. Even in law one is not allowed to use excessive force only as much as neccesary to stop the assailant, So again NO comparision.

 

[benedictaoo]

Apparently the Nun had her excommunication lifted.

Source: Link

Relevant quote: Sources tell us the nun has since met requirements to have her excommunication lifted

The diocese said a few days ago what those conditions would be:

Since it is the law (i.e., canon law) that has imposed the penalty by virtue of the crime committed, there must be a canonical process for removing the penalty. This is accomplished through Sacramental Confession with a priest. In addition to the absolution from sin confessed, a priest is also to lift the excommunication during the Rite of Penance.

Historically, abortion has been a “reserved sin” in that its absolution and resolution of the penalty have been reserved to a diocesan bishop. However, most diocesan bishops grant to priests of their dioceses the faculty to lift the excommunication.

All priests of the Diocese of Phoenix have been granted this faculty to lift excommunication in cases of abortion. A second and crucial step in the resolution of the excommunication is that there is often grave scandal created by the person’s actions.

In these situations it may be necessary for the excommunicated person to assist in the efforts to repair the scandal they helped create. This would be accomplished through consultation with the diocesan bishop.​

So I wonder if anyone else is going to concede that they were wrong about this meeting double effect?

 

[Fantine]

But in this case it was the bishop who created the scandal, not Sister McBride. I'm not sure why he decided to create a scandal when it was unlikely that more than a handful of people knew about the hospital case before he took matters into his own hands.

Why did he decide to create a scandal for this Catholic hospital? Was it vindictiveness? As far as I'm concerned, since he created the scandal, he should be the one who has to deal with it.

 

[EDB]

But in this case it was the bishop who created the scandal, not Sister McBride. I'm not sure why he decided to create a scandal when it was unlikely that more than a handful of people knew about the hospital case before he took matters into his own hands.

Why did he decide to create a scandal for this Catholic hospital? Was it vindictiveness? As far as I'm concerned, since he created the scandal, he should be the one who has to deal with it.

Good grief Fantine - if you truly believe this, may I suggest a remedial course in Catholicism for you!

Abortion is a moral evil - always and everywhere! We can not encourage, support or condone ANY abortion.

You can spin til you are dizzy - this nun was wrong! And apparently she seems to have admitted so herself!

I don't see what is so difficult to accept here!

 

[benedictaoo]

But in this case it was the bishop who created the scandal, not Sister McBride. I'm not sure why he decided to create a scandal when it was unlikely that more than a handful of people knew about the hospital case before he took matters into his own hands.

Why did he decide to create a scandal for this Catholic hospital? Was it vindictiveness? As far as I'm concerned, since he created the scandal, he should be the one who has to deal with it.

To prevent it fro happening again- and to teach ppl who think this meets double effect, that they are wrong.

 

[Fantine]

Something becomes a scandal when it becomes public knowledge.

No public knowledge = no scandal.

The bishop decided to create a scandal. He could have kept the good name of the hospital and its capable administration. They obviously aren't renting out their third floor to Planned Parenthood. They are a Catholic hospital who, in a life and death situation, made one decision to save one life when saving two wasn't possible.

They did this quietly, and privately, in a closed door committee meeting. The people who knew? The surgeons, the OR nurses...

But for some reason the bishop decided to trash the hospital, whose overall record is obviously blameless, for reasons unbeknownst to most thinking people.

They made a mistake, and because of it, one person died instead of two. A simple, "Don't do it again," would probably have sufficed.

But obviously that wasn't enough for Bishop Olmsted.

 

[Unashamed Jesus Freak]

To prevent it fro happening again- and to teach ppl who think this meets double effect, that they are wrong.

I agree.

 

[Davidnic]

But in this case it was the bishop who created the scandal, not Sister McBride. I'm not sure why he decided to create a scandal when it was unlikely that more than a handful of people knew about the hospital case before he took matters into his own hands.

Why did he decide to create a scandal for this Catholic hospital? Was it vindictiveness? As far as I'm concerned, since he created the scandal, he should be the one who has to deal with it.

No, the story of the abortion came out before the Bishop made his statement, and the nun publicly said it was within Church teaching to allow an abortion.

Not the Bishop who caused the scandal. That is like saying Jesus caused a scandal by preaching against sin that was right in front of Him.