Nun Automatically Excommunicated For Approving Abortion

[benedictaoo]

Why doesn't the church take the same position to war then? It is absolutely no different if you can't take a life to save another no matter what.

we do.

 

[BAFRIEND]

We are all second guessing a medical situation about which we don't have any real knowledge.

no we are not

the bishop investigated the facts and came to a conclusion we can rely on

its like in the courtroom and the defense attorney states there is no evidence the crook ever touched the pistol- ignoring the fingerprint evidence

 

[Fantine]

no we are not

the bishop investigated the facts and came to a conclusion we can rely on

its like in the courtroom and the defense attorney states there is no evidence the crook ever touched the pistol- ignoring the fingerprint evidence

I accept the fact that, as Church law exists today, there cannot be women priests.

I do not agree that bishops, especially when talking outside of their area of expertise and experience, are any more smarter or more knowledgeable than religious sisters or laypeople.

I guess the fact that some religious sisters are smarter and more knowledgeable than some bishops is one reason why some question the idea of women priests (which I, given current Church law, do not.)

 

[BAFRIEND]

I accept the fact that, as Church law exists today, there cannot be women priests.

I do not agree that bishops, especially when talking outside of their area of expertise and experience, are any more smarter or more knowledgeable than religious sisters or laypeople.

I guess the fact that some religious sisters are smarter and more knowledgeable than some bishops is one reason why some question the idea of women priests (which I, given current Church law, do not.)

I do not agree that religious sisters or lay people, especially when talking outside of their area of expertise and experience, are any more smarter or more knowledgeable than bishops.

I guess the fact that some bishops are smarter and more knowledgeable than some religious sisters is one reason why some question the idea of male nuns (which I, given Church law, do.)

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Davidnic

And Jim, I am putting much of my trust in the studies by many doctors (like the Irish ones from 1992 in the study already cited) and former Surgeon General C. Everett Koop:

In my thirty-six years of pediatric surgery I have never known of one instance where the child had to be aborted to save the mother’s life.
-Moody Monthly, May 1980
​

He was talking in the context of Partial Birth Abortions, which are done on viable fetuses.

The case here is a pre-viable fetus.

Jim

 

[BAFRIEND]

Davidnic




He was talking in the context of Partial Birth Abortions, which are done on viable fetuses in morality of abortion.

The case here is a pre-viable fetus.

Jim

the Church does not make distinctions of viable or pre-viable fetuses

that is pro-choice double speak for the cause of dehumanizing an infant human child (a son, daughter, brother, sister, child, grandchild, friend)

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Let's say there are two people in a room, one person can get out of the door, but when that one person does the door shuts and the room fills with gas. There is no way to get both out. There is a timer and if no one leaves in 5 min both will die.

Is it moral for one person to kill the other to get to the door because both will die if no one leaves in 5 minutes? What is the moral act in that situation?

David, you didn't have to use a hypothetical.

I just finished reading "The Terrible Hours," which was about the submarine Squalus, which sank in 250 feet of water off the coast of New England, in 1939.

Long story, but as the engine room began to rapidly fill up with water, the one engineer who managed to make it to the next hatch, held on as long as he could to allow other men who further back to make it. However, the water was filling so fast, that had he not closed and sealed the hatch, the control room would've filled and all the men aboard would've died. He had to make a fast decision, those men's lives, or the rest of the crew. He closed and sealed the door, and 26 men who were aft in the sub, drowned.

He lived with guilt all of his life, thinking that perhaps he had no right to save himself and the rest of the crew, while the action he took, killed the other 26 men.

The same is similar in this case. If the hospital doesn't abort the pre-viable fetus, the woman will die as a result of heart failure.

If the woman were your daughter, you tell me that you wouldn't see the logic in the hospital's decision.


Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

no we are not

the bishop investigated the facts and came to a conclusion we can rely on

its like in the courtroom and the defense attorney states there is no evidence the crook ever touched the pistol- ignoring the fingerprint evidence

The Bishop didn't have access to the woman's medical records, because they were kept confidential.

Jim

 

[BAFRIEND]

The Bishop didn't have access to the woman's medical records, because they were kept confidential.

Jim

the nun had access to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church- they come from God and are not confidential

Bob

 

[Davidnic]

I accept the fact that, as Church law exists today, there cannot be women priests.

Side note Fantine...that is not a Church law; that is Dogma that is unchangeable under tenenda definitive. There is a vast difference. Church Law would be Canon Law and that can be changed. What you are referring to is not changeable because it is about the nature and matter of a Sacrament. So you are in error to refer to it as a Church Law that is changeable.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

the Church does not make distinctions of viable or pre-viable fetuses

that is pro-choice double speak for the cause of dehumanizing an infant human child (a son, daughter, brother, sister, child, grandchild, friend)

I know the Church doesn't make the distinction between pre-viable or viable fetuses, but the context that C. Everett Koop, made had to do with
viable fetuses.


Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

the nun had access to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church- they come from God and are not confidential

Bob

Yes she did, and she also had access to the medical records, the doctors and visited the patient herself.

The Bishop was limited to what he knew about the case.


Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

BTW, the "Double Effect," principle isn't fallible doctrine, and when Aquinas wrote it as a guideline, he wrote in the context of self-defense against and agressor.

The arguments using the double effect, treat the fetus as the aggressor, which is never the case.

Apply the double effect principle to all medical situations, isn't going to work, unless you're willing to let the mother die. With today's modern medical knowledge, a doctor would be charged with murder for letting a mother die, when he could've saved her,
by aborting a pre-viable fetus who had no chance of survival.

Jim

 

[BAFRIEND]

Yes she did, and she also had access to the medical records, the doctors and visited the patient herself.

The Bishop was limited to what he knew about the case.


Jim

what the bishop knows was that the so-called medical procedure was carried out with the goal being to kill the child, and that was the only intended purpose

no one is debating that fact here or anywhere else

the abortion is the objective fact jim, the reason the nun excommunicated herself- intent or motive for killing the child is not the point

Bob

 

[Davidnic]

David, you didn't have to use a hypothetical.

I just finished reading "The Terrible Hours," which was about the submarine Squalus, which sank in 250 feet of water off the coast of New England, in 1939.

Long story, but as the engine room began to rapidly fill up with water, the one engineer who managed to make it to the next hatch, held on as long as he could to allow other men who further back to make it. However, the water was filling so fast, that had he not closed and sealed the hatch, the control room would've filled and all the men aboard would've died. He had to make a fast decision, those men's lives, or the rest of the crew. He closed and sealed the door, and 26 men who were aft in the sub, drowned.

He lived with guilt all of his life, thinking that perhaps he had no right to save himself and the rest of the crew, while the action he took, killed the other 26 men.

The same is similar in this case. If the hospital doesn't abort the pre-viable fetus, the woman will die as a result of heart failure.

If the woman were your daughter, you tell me that you wouldn't see the logic in the hospital's decision.


Jim

Jim,

In the case you cite his action was not to kill the men, but to perform an act that was neutral in its moral act...closing a door. The intent was to save the others on board. The act morally neutral.

In the case of an abortion the act is morally evil and can not be done so that good may come from it. So the situation you describe falls under double effect as able to be done. The act done to save lives was not...in itself morally evil. An abortion is.

If it was my daughter Jim, honestly...I would not see the logic in killing my grandchild or losing my child.

Even before we tried for children my wife and I addressed and planned for what we would do in this type of situation. It seemed best to know that before a crisis time.

I do not discount the horrible nature and toll of the questions were are debating. And I am not without a massive amount of compassion for those involved for several reasons.

The reason I am in this discussion is that a decision like this has had to be made in my family twice. Once with my mother and once with my grandmother. My mom chose to have us and although it meant her eventual death (although that death occurred ten years later and not immediate, it was a direct result) When my mothers younger sister was born the doctor came to my grandfather and said, "You have five minutes...do you want me to save your wife or your daughter?" He chose his wife.

So I have talked in depth on a personal family level with people who made the choices or were involved on both sides of this. And have seen the ramifications of both. In many ways it has been an issue present my entire life and when I studied moral theology it was an area of particular personal interest to me.

Now all that is neither here nor there in many ways, I only mentioned it for two reasons.

One (in response to your question), I wanted to explain where I am coming from when I say I have thought often of: "What if this happened to my wife or daughter?" And I do not see where killing anyone is necessary, but I am not going to personally judge the families in this, at the same time I will not validate an action that takes a life. But I am going to be disgusted (as I mentioned before) with ethics committees and the general medical attitude of "Risk management" in these situations that often treats the fetus as a lesser being and often misleads people and manipulates compassion into a decision.

And two, I wanted to explain why I take this kind of discussion of such personal importance. And, although we disagree, I want to thank you for having the discussion and raising your points in a civil manner (that can be rare on emotional issues). Although I am sure we will not bridge the gap between us on this, the conversation is worth having.

 

[benedictaoo]

I accept the fact that, as Church law exists today, there cannot be women priests.

I do not agree that bishops, especially when talking outside of their area of expertise and experience, are any more smarter or more knowledgeable than religious sisters or laypeople.

I guess the fact that some religious sisters are smarter and more knowledgeable than some bishops is one reason why some question the idea of women priests (which I, given current Church law, do not.)

This is not a mater of compassion or the lack there of because the bishop is male and the mother is female and the nun "gets it".

We are all compassionate and get that this is a difficult situation and it is painful and it's the essence of what it is to suffer.

But like I said, the facts are what they are, pain and suffering an illness and tough breaks is all a part of life. a pregnant women has a human person inside her womb- she can't kill it to pro long her own life.

 

[benedictaoo]

I do not agree that religious sisters or lay people, especially when talking outside of their area of expertise and experience, are any more smarter or more knowledgeable than bishops.

I guess the fact that some bishops are smarter and more knowledgeable than some religious sisters is one reason why some question the idea of male nuns (which I, given Church law, do.)

It has nothing to do with who is smarter... it has to down with what is the right thing to do.

Ppl get sick and die all the time, it sucks, really sucks but it's life and when you are in this situation, in any kind of dilemma, the question should be, what is the right thing to do.

It may be *the* way out of a situation but is it right? Aborting a baby to save ones life is not the right thing to do.

Go as far as you can, give birth and take it from there.

 

[Davidnic]

Davidnic




He was talking in the context of Partial Birth Abortions, which are done on viable fetuses.

The case here is a pre-viable fetus.

Jim

Koop is talking about partial birth abortion, but that only one fragment of the whole medical discussion and it is not limited to a viable fetus. The 1992 Irish study covers all kinds of cases. And it does not matter if the fetus is viable or not...a vast number of the medical community agree that there are always things that can be done other than a direct abortion. Maybe these things lack almost all hope...but they can be tried.

So medical opinion can be given on all ends and at all stages of viability.

 

[benedictaoo]

The case here is a pre-viable fetus.

Jim

So? we have no said permission to abort pre viable babies to save a women's life for reason we stated.

can you bring yourself to say baby and not fetus, Jim? It's a baby. A human person.

Who cares if a doctor has to work his butt off to save the Mom and baby... a 30, 50, 70% chance of BOTH surviving is well worth the time, money, effort and risk.

 

[benedictaoo]

the Church does not make distinctions of viable or pre-viable fetuses

that is pro-choice double speak for the cause of dehumanizing an infant human child (a son, daughter, brother, sister, child, grandchild, friend)

Amen BA-- this is the best thing I think you ever posted. It is so true...