Nun Automatically Excommunicated For Approving Abortion

[Davidnic]

And no one is discounting that these are difficult, horrifying and wrenching decisions for all involved.

 

[benedictaoo]

If you can save her life but refuse to you're killing her.

no, you are just not murdering a child.

Your premise only works if the baby is not a baby... and it's a baby and last I knew... babies are people too and last I knew, we can't kill ppl to save our own lives.

We get sick and die- it happens, it sucks and it's life... Murder is not life. murder is murder and what God told us we can not do.

We can not kill our baby so we may live.

What we can do is to just do our best.

Would you kill your born child to save you? Why would you kill your unborn child to save you.

What I would do is go as far as I could, deliver the baby and then hope for the best.

 

[chilehed]

Will someone please share the other procedures that could have been done?

That's not relevant. Regardless of the circumstances, she had no right to have her baby killed so that she might live.

Saint Gianna Beretta Molla | St. Gianna | Catholic Pro-Life Saint

 

[dinonum]

That's not relevant. Regardless of the circumstances, she had no right to have her baby killed so that she might live.

Saint Gianna Beretta Molla | St. Gianna | Catholic Pro-Life Saint

Morally for many it seems that it is relevant.

 

[benedictaoo]

only if the baby is not a human person with rights, question is, is it?

 

[Fantine]

If the baby is not viable when the mother dies, the baby will die, too. There are, therefore, cases where insuring the baby's survival means treating the mother.

But in this case, it sounds as if the growing fetus was the direct cause of the woman's heart problems.

Of course, in ectopic pregnancies, the growing embryo, who has absolutely no chance of survival using current technologies (I suppose in the future it might be possible to move and reimplant the embryo in the uterus, but that isn't possible yet) is removed from the ovary (or with the ovary) so that the mother doesn't die, too.

I guess the question in this situation is whether, like in an ectopic pregnancy, the fetus would have absolutely no chance of survival no matter what was done.

And the hospital and its director might have made one medical judgment and the bishop's advisors might have made another judgment.

I don't know, but I really don't believe the Sister of Mercy would have made the decision unless she honestly believed the fetus had no chance of surviving no matter what.

 

[Michie]

Oops!

*edited*

 

[Davidnic]

only if the baby is not a human person with rights, question is, is it?

The thing is it still is relevant to this specific situation if more could have been done. And it is a relevant conversation to see if there are really as many life or death situations as people think. Because according to a number of doctors there are not.

Now it might not change the bottom line of what the teaching says, but it matters in practical application.

But at the end of the day, as you have said, we can not kill someone to save ourselves.

 

[Davidnic]

Let's say there are two people in a room, one person can get out of the door, but when that one person does the door shuts and the room fills with gas. There is no way to get both out. There is a timer and if no one leaves in 5 min both will die.

Is it moral for one person to kill the other to get to the door because both will die if no one leaves in 5 minutes? What is the moral act in that situation?

 

[Unashamed Jesus Freak]

no, you are just not murdering a child.

Your premise only works if the baby is not a baby... and it's a baby and last I knew... babies are people too and last I knew, we can't kill ppl to save our own lives.

We get sick and die- it happens, it sucks and it's life... Murder is not life. murder is murder and what God told us we can not do.

We can not kill our baby so we may live.

What we can do is to just do our best.

Would you kill your born child to save you? Why would you kill your unborn child to save you.

What I would do is go as far as I could, deliver the baby and then hope for the best.

Amen. I could have said it better myself.

I'll repeat this, because I think it bears repeating. I'm grateful to the Catholic Church for its firm stand against abortion. I do wish that more Protestant churches would follow its example. Abortion is murder of unborn children, no matter what the circumstances are. If this were to happen, abortion would be outlawed, as it should be. But the truth of the matter is that if more Protestant churches had followed the example of the Catholic Church with its strong stance against abortion, I don't think abortion would be have legalized in the first place.

 

[benedictaoo]

If the baby is not viable when the mother dies, the baby will die, too. There are, therefore, cases where insuring the baby's survival means treating the mother.

But in this case, it sounds as if the growing fetus was the direct cause of the woman's heart problems.

Of course, in ectopic pregnancies, the growing embryo, who has absolutely no chance of survival using current technologies (I suppose in the future it might be possible to move and reimplant the embryo in the uterus, but that isn't possible yet) is removed from the ovary (or with the ovary) so that the mother doesn't die, too.

I guess the question in this situation is whether, like in an ectopic pregnancy, the fetus would have absolutely no chance of survival no matter what was done.

And the hospital and its director might have made one medical judgment and the bishop's advisors might have made another judgment.

I don't know, but I really don't believe the Sister of Mercy would have made the decision unless she honestly believed the fetus had no chance of surviving no matter what.

Go until you can't go anymore, deliver the baby to give it dignity becuase it is a person- it desrves to be treated as a PERSON, not medical waste, and then hope for the best- for you and YOUR child.

What is escaping everyone here and I can not understand why it is escaping everyone is, IT IS YOUR CHILD... is this is your child, not some illness that is killing you.

y'all are refusing to acknowledge this is a CHILD.

This is why we just can not kill it as if it is some thing and not some one.

Gezze... it is that easy but yet so hard to grasp... Why?

 

[benedictaoo]

The thing is it still is relevant to this specific situation if more could have been done. And it is a relevant conversation to see if there are really as many life or death situations as people think. Because according to a number of doctors there are not.

I agree with that 100%. I been knowing there really isn't any case where we know as a fact, a mother WILL, 100%, die if she waits and delivers a baby who can survive outside the womb.

Now it might not change the bottom line of what the teaching says, but it matters in practical application.

But at the end of the day, as you have said, we can not kill someone to save ourselves.

David, your posts, logic, and understanding is certainly not lost on me.

 

[benedictaoo]

Let's say there are two people in a room, one person can get out of the door, but when that one person does the door shuts and the room fills with gas. There is no way to get both out. There is a timer and if no one leaves in 5 min both will die.

Is it moral for one person to kill the other to get to the door because both will die if no one leaves in 5 minutes? What is the moral act in that situation?

what if that other person is your kid! Would you kill it to save yourself?

 

[benedictaoo]

Amen. I could have said it better myself.

I'll repeat this, because I think it bears repeating. I'm grateful to the Catholic Church for its firm stand against abortion. I do wish that more Protestant churches would follow its example. Abortion is murder of unborn children, no matter what the circumstances are. If this were to happen, abortion would be outlawed, as it should be. But the truth of the matter is that if more Protestant churches had followed the example of the Catholic Church with its strong stance against abortion, I don't think abortion would be have legalized in the first place.

Amen.

 

[Fantine]

We are all second guessing a medical situation about which we don't have any real knowledge. Obviously the medical ethicists at the hospital felt the woman (and her eleven week old fetus) were in an immediate life or death situation in which neither would survive.

Obviously the medical ethicists working for the bishops, relying on secondhand information, didn't.

Similar to how the CHA and the USCCB, both relying on their experts, disagreed about the content of the health care bill.

It seemed to me that in the health care bill situation, the USCCB's team was grasping at straws to try to find something to disapprove of, and so I don't know exactly what I think about the bishops' ethicists...to me, they seem to be people who start with their thesis statement and then determine to prove it, whether or not there's any evidence.

I think the ethicists who actually work in health care and struggle with the issues without having predetermined conclusions are more credible.

 

[benedictaoo]

that's a little bogus, Fantine. The bottom line, this is a child, it is a human person, so any intention to deliberately kill it to save ones life is just not an option.

The problem is y'all are not realizing or refusing to recognize, (not sure which it is)this is a human being. You feel it's somehow less human or less valuable then the mother, so killing it is no big deal.

The bishops understanding that killing a person to save another person's life is not acceptable and the nun should have known it- but for what ever reason did not know it or ignored it.

That is what excommunicated her from the sacraments and publically serving the Church.

 

[Insubres]

Why doesn't the church take the same position to war then? It is absolutely no different if you can't take a life to save another no matter what.

 

[Davidnic]

David, your posts, logic, and understanding is certainly not lost on me.

Figured that

 

[Davidnic]

Why doesn't the church take the same position to war then? It is absolutely no different if you can't take a life to save another no matter what.

She does. War is only allowed when facing an unjust aggressor and the fetus can not be an unjust aggressor. War must fit what is called the Just War criteria.

 

[Davidnic]

what if that other person is your kid! Would you kill it to save yourself?

I would not kill a stranger to do so...I would not kill anyone to do it.