Nun Automatically Excommunicated For Approving Abortion

benedictaoo

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Something becomes a scandal when it becomes public knowledge.

No public knowledge = no scandal.

The bishop decided to create a scandal. He could have kept the good name of the hospital and its capable administration. They obviously aren't renting out their third floor to Planned Parenthood. They are a Catholic hospital who, in a life and death situation, made one decision to save one life when saving two wasn't possible.

They did this quietly, and privately, in a closed door committee meeting. The people who knew? The surgeons, the OR nurses...

But for some reason the bishop decided to trash the hospital, whose overall record is obviously blameless, for reasons unbeknownst to most thinking people.

They made a mistake, and because of it, one person died instead of two. A simple, "Don't do it again," would probably have sufficed.

But obviously that wasn't enough for Bishop Olmsted.

okay, one more time... a Nun can not just go about misrepresenting Church teaching.

It's good that this came to our attention- so we all know how even a nun working in a hospital can be not clear on these kind of issues...

Now we all know that what she did is against the church.

I guess some folk would want it to be kept a secret, so it can just keep on happening.
But we know now... so this thing just can't keep happening.
 
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Davidnic

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Something becomes a scandal when it becomes public knowledge.

No public knowledge = no scandal.

Yep and if you read the info the one who released it to the public was not the Bishop and then the nun defended the action. Then the Bishop acted. And in addition scandal is incumbent on the one who did the sin...I know it would be awesome if we could blame our sins on others or excuse them with other reasons but that just is not so.
 
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2WhomShallWeGo

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The case wasn't murder.

Had they not performed the abortion, the woman would've died and the fetus as well.

It was a bad situation, where the only choice was to save the life of the mother. This isn't murder.

However, had the doctors done nothing, as many in here suggest, they would've rightfully been charged with manslaughter of the woman.

Jim
directly killing an innocent life is the definition of murder. Perhaps you would now like to redefine Life or innocent to suit the purpose of your argument?
 
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Davidnic

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<staff edit>
Bottom line, if a human is a human from conception forward (and no one can prove otherwise and the vast majority of doctors, scientists and biologists define it that way) then they are human and possessing all human rights as an innocent being, no matter how inconvenient the application of those rights are.

Now, maybe you believe there are situations where the killing of one innocent life is necessary or proportional to save an innocent life.

But your calling it just cells and saying feed it to a dog is not only insulting in the Catholic forum, it is damaging and hurtful to all of us who have lost children early in pregnancy. Your comments rob my son of his humanity. Attempt to rob him of his identity and even (by saying they are no more than cells) his very soul and even his existence.

My wife and I would have gladly given either or both our lives to save him if we could have. But here you are...saying he would have been no more than cells, he did not have an identity, he did not even exist. But he did. His name is Michael. He is my son and I love him and would defend his life with mine...no matter if he existed for one second or one hundred years. Do you see how you spit on him. Mock his very existence as a human being with your comment. He lived. Had all the processes of life. Does the fact that we wanted him make him human? Desire makes one human? Or the fact that he was not causing medical complications make him human? convenience makes one human? You say blob of cells. Feed to a dog. And think you are defending life. You are so sane. So compassionate...to spit on my child and mock his life.

Oh, I'm sorry....you're not doing that are you? You're just being sane, compassionate and so reasonable compared to those of us who held a blob of cells with a head and little hands in our hands, although no bigger than our fingertip, and knew it was our child. How foolish of us to name him. To love him. To be willing to die for him. Such fools we are to say he is human but then accept that that mean he was human from the beginning of his existence. Obviously he was not human...he was a dog, or an ocelot or a bird of some kind. The offspring of two humans is after all not a human until he is outside the womb...or wanted...or medically convenient. He is not just human because of DNA or because it is his nature from the moment of conception as the life processes begin. But we are mentally ill, because we fact the fact that it is life. We face the fact that when a child dies in the womb that a life...equal to any other is lost. What madness. What madness to hold to that truth even when it is difficult.

And, you say, if he endangered his mothers life it would have been fine to have fed him to a dog. Or that my sister and I, having endangered our mothers life..it would have been alright to feed us to a dog. Who here is devaluing life? The people who are arguing to try to save both or the person saying for all they care one life could be feed to a dog because it is not the same thing as a grown person. Yes, age and height are the defining factors of life. Comparative factors that give one life more value than another. How sane. How compassionate.

You say we are mentally ill if we believe this. Mentally ill because I give my son all the love and rights of any human being...no matter when he died. Mentally ill because I ask that we attempt to save both lives and if one must be lost we use a method other than the direct killing of a human being by a D&C or D&E procedure.

Please reflect that when you place any life above another you demean all life. We must strive to save both lives...and barring that we must not directly take any innocent life.
 
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benedictaoo

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I told you that was what was at the heart of this matter. That no one thinks the baby is a baby.

Your argument is so, 1973. In this day and age, God love technology- we absolutely know the baby is a baby and not a thing, abuch of cells or a piece of property.

Does this look like a bunch of cells? or a baby?

and have you seen what an abortion at 11 weeks looks like?

You might want to check that out I won't post it because it is horrific, like any murder scene... blood bath with baby body parts dismembered all over the place...

but with all that aside, what I don't get is this phenomenon, that if the mother wants the baby- its a baby and she calls it a baby, speaks of it like it's a baby and loves it like its a baby, but when she doesn't want it- all of a sudden it's a bunch of cells... not a baby.

The deal here is, YOU (we) don't get to decided who is human and who isn't.

YouTube - Baby Setliff in womb at 11 weeks

can you imagine going in and ripping this baby a part limb, literally... limb from limb?
 
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benedictaoo

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But your calling it just cells and saying feed it to a dog is not only insulting in the Catholic forum, it is damaging and hurtful to all of us who have lost children early in pregnancy. Your comments rob my son of his humanity. Attempt to rob him of his identity and even (by saying they are no more than cells) his very soul and even his existence.

and David, I'm sorry for a comment like that, because I know it's hurtful. and it makes my point- that when we want the baby, it's a baby, when we don't, it's something else.

so, we aren't the ones who is being stupid, obviously, to think the baby is human based on if we want it to be or not.

Got to love this world of subjectivity.

But there is such a deeper issue to this, much more then meets the eye. This mentality is coming from a real bad broken wounded place and a society that has just lost its mind.

and why the sex abuse in the Church upsets me so... because even the priests/bishops, we all do have this mind set that children are just unimportant and things that belong to grown ups, so we abuse them.

Child abuse is child abuse whether it be an abortion or molestation, beating them up, abusing them with bad verbiage... what ever.

We just think children are beneath us and this comes from us, ourselves being abused in some form or fashion as well.

Sad, but it's a much bigger problem then what this is about- it's not about what its about, it's about hurt ppl who never understood their own dignity and humanity. I guess choosing to sacrifice your baby for yourself makes you feel you have worth and value.
 
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Davidnic

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But there is such a deeper issue to this, much more then meets the eye. This mentality is coming from a real bad broken wounded place and a society that has just lost its mind.


I agree.
 
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Tigg

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Bottom line, if a human is a human from conception forward (and no one can prove otherwise and the vast majority of doctors, scientists and biologists define it that way) then they are human and possessing all human rights as an innocent being, no matter how inconvenient the application of those rights are.

Now, maybe you believe there are situations where the killing of one innocent life is necessary or proportional to save an innocent life.

But your calling it just cells and saying feed it to a dog is not only insulting in the Catholic forum, it is damaging and hurtful to all of us who have lost children early in pregnancy. Your comments rob my son of his humanity. Attempt to rob him of his identity and even (by saying they are no more than cells) his very soul and even his existence.

My wife and I would have gladly given either or both our lives to save him if we could have. But here you are...saying he would have been no more than cells, he did not have an identity, he did not even exist. But he did. His name is Michael. He is my son and I love him and would defend his life with mine...no matter if he existed for one second or one hundred years. Do you see how you spit on him. Mock his very existence as a human being with your comment. He lived. Had all the processes of life. Does the fact that we wanted him make him human? Desire makes one human? Or the fact that he was not causing medical complications make him human? convenience makes one human? You say blob of cells. Feed to a dog. And think you are defending life. You are so sane. So compassionate...to spit on my child and mock his life.

Oh, I'm sorry....you're not doing that are you? You're just being sane, compassionate and so reasonable compared to those of us who held a blob of cells with a head and little hands in our hands, although no bigger than our fingertip, and knew it was our child. How foolish of us to name him. To love him. To be willing to die for him. Such fools we are to say he is human but then accept that that mean he was human from the beginning of his existence. Obviously he was not human...he was a dog, or an ocelot or a bird of some kind. The offspring of two humans is after all not a human until he is outside the womb...or wanted...or medically convenient. He is not just human because of DNA or because it is his nature from the moment of conception as the life processes begin. But we are mentally ill, because we fact the fact that it is life. We face the fact that when a child dies in the womb that a life...equal to any other is lost. What madness. What madness to hold to that truth even when it is difficult.

And, you say, if he endangered his mothers life it would have been fine to have fed him to a dog. Or that my sister and I, having endangered our mothers life..it would have been alright to feed us to a dog. Who here is devaluing life? The people who are arguing to try to save both or the person saying for all they care one life could be feed to a dog because it is not the same thing as a grown person. Yes, age and height are the defining factors of life. Comparative factors that give one life more value than another. How sane. How compassionate.

You say we are mentally ill if we believe this. Mentally ill because I give my son all the love and rights of any human being...no matter when he died. Mentally ill because I ask that we attempt to save both lives and if one must be lost we use a method other than the direct killing of a human being by a D&C or D&E procedure.

Please reflect that when you place any life above another you demean all life. We must strive to save both lives...and barring that we must not directly take any innocent life.


:thumbsup: Amen
 
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FreeinChrist

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Closing this for clean up.

It is not okay to promote abortion in this forum so any posts that do will be removed - as also those that quote those posts (unless I can save it by removing the quote).
 
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Davidnic

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I was wondering something. Does commission of a regular murder automatically excommunicate a person? I would presume it does, but I've never seen it discussed before.

It could, it is not one of the automatic ones. Many people will say any mortal sin excommunicates. That is not entirely true. Excommunication is a canonical penalty. But murder being a mortal sin removes someone from the sacraments until they confess...in that the effects are similar.

You could make an argument for many sins to cause excommunication...in fact you could make an argument for all mortal sins to be of such a serious level that they should. But that is not what excommunication is about. Excommunication is done when a sin or pattern of behavior is so grievous and public that the Church must enact a penalty as a means to inform the person that they have disconnected themselves from the Church in a very particular way.

So a pattern of behavior can bring about excommunication or one of the automatic sins. But all serious sins do not cause an automatic penalty only a select few that have, over time, proven to show that directly and intentionally the person has removed themselves so drastically from the Church and what She teaches. Like, trying to kill the Pope or violating the seal of confession, or desecrating the Eucharist. Sins that show you have intentionally turned your back on the Church by the very action. And for willful direct aboriton without any of the mitigating factors of canon law has been one of these for as long as we have had the penalty and has been a grievous sin of particular seriousness (more so than other murder) for long before that. This is because it strikes at life at the foundation.
 
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benedictaoo

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when ppl say any sin excommunicates, they basically mean, you can't have Communion until you confess the sin.

The excommunication that David refers to is, when the Church has to apply this to a person because they are misleading the public on more then just a bad example level but on a teaching level.

we just can't have ppl misrepresent the faith on a serious matter that can cause a bazillion ppl to follow it. Like abortion.

IMO, Nancy Pelosi and Ted Kennedy should have been and should be excommunicated in this formal way because they as Catholics (not as politicians) have mislead Catholics on Catholic teaching and are continuing to do so, same with Biden...

So a guy who puts out a hit on someone, he is excommunicated but not formerly so because its not a matter of the dude is making a statement that the Catholic Church says we can put hits out on ppl...
 
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Fitch

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The specific laetae sententiae for abortion is because it is a serious general moral problem in western society. This is not to say that murder isn't, but, as of yet, we aren't spending millions trying to keep it "safe and legal".

As for this case, there had to have been something the nun could have done to recuse herself. But even as I say that I realize how pusillanimous it sounds.

There are no winners here. I understand the bishop's decision, those are the rules and hospitals (especially Catholic ones) have specific guidelines set up for exactly these kinds of situations and sister had to have been aware of them. She not only violated church law, she violated the terms of her "employment".

That said, if everything is true here: the mother and child would both have certainly died if the child were brought to parturition, I really do not know what other choice could have been made.

This was not an elective abortion, and I do not think any penance should be imposed for the nun's reinstatement if she repents.
 
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benedictaoo

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The specific laetae sententiae for abortion is because it is a serious general moral problem in western society. This is not to say that murder isn't, but, as of yet, we aren't spending millions trying to keep it "safe and legal".

As for this case, there had to have been something the nun could have done to recuse herself. But even as I say that I realize how pusillanimous it sounds.

There are no winners here. I understand the bishop's decision, those are the rules and hospitals (especially Catholic ones) have specific guidelines set up for exactly these kinds of situations and sister had to have been aware of them. She not only violated church law, she violated the terms of her "employment".

You had me till here... the post was good till here...

That said, if everything is true here: the mother and child would both have certainly died if the child were brought to parturition, I really do not know what other choice could have been made.

This was not an elective abortion, and I do not think any penance should be imposed for the nun's reinstatement if she repents.

There is no certainty in life. God is sovereign and His Providence is what cares for us.

It's times like this we put our money where our mouth is... we are either going to believe in this stuff or we aren't.
 
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Fitch

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Ben,

I am speaking as a student nurse here. We use science. We trust God, but we also believe that He puts people into our hands and that He understands that we use science to understand viability and use medicine to deal with it.

Taking the position that we should just do nothing other than making the patient comfortable and hoping for the best is not medicine, it's something else.

Hospice care, I guess.
 
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benedictaoo

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Ben,

I am speaking as a student nurse here. We use science. We trust God, but we also believe that He puts people into our hands and that He understands that we use science to understand viability and use medicine to deal with it.

Taking the position that we should just do nothing other than making the patient comfortable and hoping for the best is not medicine, it's something else.

Hospice care, I guess.

Fitch-- dude, you are not God, God does not/would n-e-v-e-r give you a science that allows you to kill a baby in the womb.

don't you get it? We have no such license to kill a baby just because neither mother or the baby can live.
 
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BAFRIEND

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Ben,

I am speaking as a student nurse here. We use science. We trust God, but we also believe that He puts people into our hands and that He understands that we use science to understand viability and use medicine to deal with it.

Taking the position that we should just do nothing other than making the patient comfortable and hoping for the best is not medicine, it's something else.

Hospice care, I guess.


you are forgetting there are two patients the mother and the child- how does abortion make the child feel more comfortable ?

FAIL
 
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benedictaoo

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Or her order will move her to another geographical area where the ordinary isn't such a witch hunter.

:doh:

oh my gosh-- what she did is against Church teaching. period.

Agree with it or not- NO WITCH HUNT. This was not a witch hunt- the bishop was just doing his job!

if you want to dissent form this Church teaching, more power to you buddy, but don't dare accuse the bishop of a witch hunt- what she did was wrong according to the Church. So the CHURCH is well with in it's right and duty to do their job.

Your premise only works if the bishop was wrong and the nun was right according to the Church's teaching, and she wasn't right, this did not meet double effect.
 
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