No one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me MAY NOT DRAW him

Dikaioumenoi

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Apologies, but busy with other things and I'm not always seeing alerts enumerated on my page.

I'll read what you've written when I can. You've put forth quite a bit of effort and I should probably just ask you to consider being my instructor in logic. But you'd probably end up flunking or expelling me!
No need to apologize, please take your time. I certainly understand being busy. And I'd pass you simply for being interested in having such a thoughtful conversation with me. ;)

I'll offer a quick answer to your question concerning 1 John 2:23, then, if you don't mind, I wanted to offer some clarification on my prior reply (in hindsight I could have explained things better).

1 John 2:23 - πᾶς ὁ ἀρνούμενος τὸν υἱὸν :: everyone who denies the Son :: οὐδὲ τὸν πατέρα ἔχει :: does not have the Father :: ὁ ὁμολογῶν τὸν υἱὸν :: the one who confesses the Son :: καὶ τὸν πατέρα ἔχει :: also has the Father

Four clauses:
  1. Everyone who denies the Son
  2. [he] does not have the Father
  3. the one who confesses the son
  4. [he] also has the Father
The basic logic is "if 1 then 2, if 3 then 4." We can represent with the following three constants:

P = he denies the Son
Q = he has the Father
R = he confesses the Son

The verse could be represented in one of two ways:

(P --> ~Q) ^ (R --> Q)
(P <--> ~Q) ^ (R <--> Q)

The first says that P is sufficient but not necessary for ~Q, and R is sufficient but not necessary for Q, and the second says P is both sufficient and necessary for ~Q, and R is both sufficient and necessary for Q.

The difference is that sufficiency only (the first option) leaves open the possibility that there could be some neutral ground between denying and confessing the Son. In this case it would be logically possible that there could be someone who has neither denied Christ, nor confessed Him, but nevertheless has the Father by some other means (maybe on account of one's ignorance of the Son's existence, for example). In other words, there would potentially exist three categories of people: (1) those who deny the Son, (2) those who confess the Son, and (3) those who do neither.

This doesn't seem like the best option, for at least this reason:

The contrapositive of P --> ~Q is Q --> ~P, which reads, "if he has the Father, then he has not denied the Son." This tells us that having the Father is sufficient for concluding that one has not denied the Son. But it would follow from this that both categories 2 and 3 (from above) would have the Father, merely on account of the fact that neither denies the Son, making the latter half of the verse redundant. In other words, what it would mean is that it doesn't matter if one confesses the Son or not, so long as they haven't consciously denied Him. That would not seem to fit the message of Scripture at all.

Thus, it is best to understand P and R as mutually exclusive. To not deny the Son is to confess Him, and to not confess the son is to deny Him. In other words, there is no neutrality between the two. So the verse would be best represented with biconditionals (as in John 6:44):

(P <--> ~Q) ^ (R <--> Q)

A biconditional, <-->, represents equivalence. It means that one proposition is both a necessary and sufficient condition for the truth of the other. Thus, we can simply restate the expression in the more readable way,

(~Q <--> P) ^ (Q <--> R)

This translates to, "he does not have the Father if and only if he has denied the Son, and he has the Father if and only if he has confessed the Son."

This expresses the mutual exclusivity between R and P, and thus the equivalence of R and ~P (as well as the equivalence of P and ~R).

What does it say logically in regard to being given a command to believe?
All that the verse tells us logically is that if the condition is met (i.e. one does not deny the Son, but confesses Him), then he has the Father. This is silent on the question of the why and how of the condition's fulfillment.

IOW, God has commanded men to believe, and a man believes, has that man also been obedient to God?
Sure. But in the context of our discussion I would clarify that the contingency of his obedience is with respect to proximate (secondary) causation only, not with respect to God's decree, which necessitates the obedience/belief of those who come.

In other words, contingency and necessity are not mutually exclusive. An act can be both, in different respects. There are different kinds of necessity (see my above chart). There is intrinsic necessity, for instance, which is a physical or logical necessity (e.g. 2 + 2 = 4), but there is also extrinsic necessity, which is when something that is contingent in its mode of production is nevertheless made necessary as a consequence of God's decree.

In hindsight, I probably could have been a little more clear in my prior reply about what I'm actually objecting to when you say "ability implies contingency." Ability does imply contingency, just not to the degree that you're wanting to argue for, I contend. You seem to be wanting to suggest that if a thing is contingent it cannot in any sense be necessary. But this simply isn't the case. Contingent things are not intrinsically necessary. But that does not mean their occurrence cannot be made certain by some extrinsic necessity of consequence.

The distinction between ultimate and proximate causation demonstrates this. An ultimate (or first) cause is the primary, more indirect cause of a thing. The proximate (or second) cause is the more direct cause which is most closely related to the effect. For example, when the sun shines and warms the earth, we could describe the cause of that warmth in two senses. As to the ultimate cause, we would say it is God who causes the sun to shine, in that His decree governs the fact that it should happen. Yet in the more "immediate" sense of thinking about sunshine, we would refer to the sun itself as the agent which properly performs the action of warming the earth. God Himself is not the agent of things. Rather, He works through means to bring about His purposes.

The decree of God is the ultimate cause of all created things, and in that sense all created things are made necessary, because God's decree is immutable. The things themselves are contingent in their mode of production (i.e. they are not intrinsically necessary in the way that 2 + 2 = 4 is), yet as they relate to their ultimate cause they are made extrinsically necessary. When we speak of the sun warming the earth in the sense of the agency which properly performs the action, we speak of contingency. But when we speak of the sun warming the earth in the sense of the ultimate cause of sunshine, we speak of necessity - not an intrinsic necessity, but an extrinsic necessity of consequence, following from God's decree. Again, God Himself is not the agent. God is not performing the act of shining upon the earth. And therefore He does not bear direct responsibility for it. The sun performs this act. And yet it does so by necessity of consequence, following the decree.

So when we look at John 6:44 (or 1 John 2:23 or any other text dealing with choice), we are right to see contingency insofar as we are considering the proximate cause (i.e. the agent properly performing the act of choosing), but this contingency isn't really what we're discussing, because its existence does not pose any contradiction to the hypothesis that contingent choices are also necessary in another respect. The bigger question in our discussion has to do with whether or not an individual's choice to come (or not come) is made extrinsically necessary by God's immutable decree. Do those who contingently choose to exercise their ability to come to Christ do so by necessity of consequence of God's decree? An affirmative answer would explain the identity in class membership between the "him" drawn and the "him" raised. And I contend we have examples in Scripture of this harmonious relationship between ultimate necessity and proximate contingency even as it relates to human choices.

The most elaborate example is with Pharaoh and the hardening of his heart. On the one hand, Pharaoh was judged for hardening his heart and not letting the Israelites go. That is a contingent decision on his part, and he is thus held responsible for it. Yet we also see in the Exodus narrative that God had an eternal purpose in this hardening. It was not merely a response to a contingent choice. Before Moses ever confronted Pharaoh, God promised in Ex. 4:21 that he would harden Pharaoh's heart, "so that" he would not let the people go. Then six times in the narrative - Ex. 7:13, 22, 8:15, 19, 9:12, 35 - we have the repeated statement that Pharaoh's heart was hardened, "just as the Lord had said," referencing the fulfillment of promise. Then in Ex. 11:9 Pharaoh's contingent refusal to listen is directly connected again with a purpose clause, thus referencing God's eternal purpose in glorifying Himself as the underlying, ultimate cause behind the actions of the whole narrative:

"Then the LORD said to Moses, 'Pharaoh will not listen to you, that my wonders may be multiplied in the land of Egypt.'"

Here we are told why Pharaoh would not listen. It is because God had a purpose in his disobedience. There is necessity to Pharaoh's disobedience for the fulfillment of God's purpose. And yet at the same time we see the contingency of that disobedience with respect to the proximate cause which falls out under God's decree. Thus, when we say that the decree of God extrinsically necessitates that Pharaoh would not listen, that's not to say that God is "doing the choosing for him." God is not the agent of the action, and therefore does not bear moral responsibility. Since the effect flows directly from the proximate cause and not the ultimate, the responsibility falls on the individual who properly performs the act. Pharaoh, after all, was merely following his heart's desire. His choices were entirely willful. Yet in terms of the ultimate cause of those choices, the disposition of Pharaoh's heart which governs the direction in which he would willfully act is a consequence of the divine decree.

Men choose willingly according to their heart's desire, its disposition, be it disposed toward the flesh or the Spirit (cf. Rom. 8:1-11). If the drawing of the Father affects the heart of man in such a way that the disposition of that heart is changed, we have both the necessity of the choice to come with respect to its ultimate cause (John 6:37a, 39), as well as the contingency and liberty of the choice with respect to its proximate cause (John 6:37b, 40). The individual willingly chooses in one sense what the decree of God necessitates in another. And the identity of class membership in verse 44 between the "him" drawn and the "him" raised fits this perfectly, without taking away the liberty of choice (our ability to wrap our minds around "what this looks like" is not a requisite to our acknowledgement of the existence of these categories in Scripture, much like our acceptance of Scripture's teachings on the Trinity and hypostatic union). The ultimate cause governs the necessity of the purposed outcome (that all those drawn by the Father out of their sin-loving inability will infallibly turn to Christ and be raised, to the end that Christ's purpose in coming to earth will be perfectly fulfilled; John 6:37a, 38, 39, 44), and yet in terms of how proximate causes fall out under this decree (i.e. in terms of the means God works through to accomplish His purposes), these individuals willingly choose according to this renewed desire of their hearts.

A few other quick examples of the relationship between proximate contingency and ultimate necessity:

"And now do not be distressed or angry with yourselves because you sold me here, for God sent me before you to preserve life." - Genesis 45:5

"The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will." - Proverbs 21:1

"And they kept the Feast of Unleavened Bread seven days with joy, for the LORD had made them joyful and had turned the heart of the king of Assyria to them, so that he aided them in the work of the house of God, the God of Israel." - Ezra 6:22

Very briefly (I didn't intend for this to turn into another essay!): How can we say that the decree of God necessitates that some come and others do not, if Scripture is filled (and indeed it is) with commands and pleas for all men to repent and turn in faith? Would such a decree make God's revealed will for men disingenuous? For starters, I'd point to Acts 2:23 in answering this:

"This Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men."

The death of Christ follows from the purpose established in God's decree. At the same time, the consequent death of Christ flows directly from the sinful choices of men, and thus they are regarded as guilty, even though their actions carry out the eternal decree. Again, this verse serves as demonstration of the harmony that exists between ultimate necessity and proximate contingency without doing away with personal liberty and responsibility. But it also makes another point: the decree of God can at times appear to be in conflict with his precepts (e.g. thou shalt not kill). Of course, there can be no true conflict implied within God's will. Rather, we must conclude that there are different respects or senses to God's will as it pertains to His decree (hidden will) and to His precepts (revealed will).

The latter reflects the moral character of God and how men ought to therefore imitate it; the former speaks to God's ultimate purposes for creation, which, as we've seen in the examples above, can involve the ultimate necessity of disobedient acts to accomplish His purposes (i.e. the use of means), without Himself denying His precepts (see Isaiah 10:5-13, where God purposes to use the disobedience of the Assyrians to punish Israel, and then turns right around and punishes Assyria for the very sinfulness which carried out the decree; in other words, God doesn't punish Assyria for doing what it was He Himself purposed, but rather for their sinfulness, even though that sinfulness was necessary to the fulfillment of the purpose). This brings harmony to God's universal commands and pleas for repentance and faith, with Scripture's more determinative statements about God's purpose to redeem some and not others.
 
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GDL

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I'll offer a quick answer to your question concerning 1 John 2:23, then, if you don't mind, I wanted to offer some clarification on my prior reply (in hindsight I could have explained things better).
All that work & I messed up. I meant to ask about 1John3:23. Since God has commanded belief in Jesus Christ, if we believe, have we not also been obedient to God?

Now I'll read the rest of what you so graciously wrote.

My apology for my error. I do value your time.
 
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GDL

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You seem to be wanting to suggest that if a thing is contingent it cannot in any sense be necessary.
As I'm reading through this in first pass (normally takes me a few and then some at times), this caught my eye. I'm going to have to try to digest more of the contingency vs. necessity, but I am not in any way suggesting the above. I see the drawing as necessity. I see the use of ability as contingency - maybe the ability will be used and maybe it will not be used. But you could be speaking a different language than I am, and I need to learn it. I'll try to work on it as I can.

Interestingly my mistake re: the 1John verses brings us to something that may apply to what I'm suggesting re: John6:44. Confession of Christ being necessity, does ability from drawing in J6:44 say confession will happen or does happen (but not necessarily in all cases)? I'd tie the confession at minimum to Rom10:9-10.
 
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GDL

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John 12:32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Not disputed. Good reference. The rest of your referenced verses need some work to be pertinent to the discussion. Look for a concordance that provides all the references for the Greek word being translated as "draw" in John6:44 and 12:32. This might be a good use of time for just about anybody. How would you compare John12:32 to John6:44? Is there conflict between them? Please read post #80 again.
 
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Peacemaker1

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No person's understanding of Scripture is perfect, and therefore every person's understanding of Scripture is subject to constructive criticism. There is a time and place for dispute. To disagree with this is to neglect the wisdom of the above statements.
Perverse lips are a breach of the Spirit, they have to be put away, it is foolish.

Men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

If any man rises and teaches perverse things, and consents not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, the doctrine which is according to godliness; he is proud, knowing nothing, doting about questions and strifes of words, with envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth.





Proverbs 4:24Put away from thee a froward mouth, and perverse lips put far from thee.

Proverbs 15:4A wholesome tongue is a tree of life: but perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit.

Proverbs 19:1Better is the poor that walketh in his integrity, than he that is perverse in his lips, and is a fool.

Acts 20:30Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

1 Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
 
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Peacemaker1

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Not disputed. Good reference.
the rich man is wise in their own conceit, and all dispute is, is not consenting to the doctrine of our Lord Jesus Christ, without the strife, envy and debate, railings and evil surmisings they try desperately to justify themselves in.


Proverbs 18:11The rich man's wealth is his strong city, and as an high wall in his own conceit.

Proverbs 26:12Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.

Proverbs 28:11The rich man is wise in his own conceit; but the poor that hath understanding searcheth him out.


Romans 1:29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

1 Corinthians 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
 
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Peacemaker1

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editing is required alright.

the antichrist spirit denies Christ has come in the flesh, and the Spirit of truth testified that Christ came to die for our sins to save us by Christs death on the cross, Christ draws us to Him by being in the lowest parts of the earth, to be then seen as risen to the highest heavens to fill all things, and we to be all things joined together with Him up in heaven in one believing with Him.
 
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Peacemaker1

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All that work & I messed up. I meant to ask about 1John3:23. Since God has commanded belief in Jesus Christ, if we believe, have we not also been obedient to God?
Jesus Christ is the Son obedient to the Father, by the death of the cross, not the belief of nothing, as people alone show their idea of belief.


Philippians 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Revelation 2:10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
 
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Peacemaker1

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Interestingly my mistake re: the 1John verses brings us to something that may apply to what I'm suggesting re: John6:44. Confession of Christ being necessity, does ability from drawing in J6:44 say confession will happen or does happen (but not necessarily in all cases)? I'd tie the confession at minimum to Rom10:9-10.


ability to be draw and to confess is done by Jesus Christ dying and rising again, before thatwas done by Christ, no ability to be drawn to God was done.

but the preaching of the cross is the power of God only to those who believe, it is foolishness to those who perish as the greeks seeking wisdom still on these foolish talking forums, and stumbling blocks to the jews seeking signs, and both from their own manifested complete lack of faith.



1 Corinthians 1:18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
 
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Peacemaker1

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as it is the time for many false prophets coming in Christs name, false teachers among us, will they be wise to be silent, or think they are wise to speak on. Jesus Christ died to draw us to God, the antichrist wants to dispute and subtilly deny Him, many follow their perniscious/ subtil ways, but not in any sense whatsoever.


Matthew 7:15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matthew 24:11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

2 Peter 2:1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
 
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Peacemaker1

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1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
 
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Peacemaker1

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John12:32 to John6:44? Is there conflict between them?
....draw him: and I will raise him up, f I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.



here is the best advice for your many words and questioning so far in this thread, to be agreed and acted upon, or not suitable or very appropriate for right now


James 1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
 
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GDL

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Thanks for your input.
i do not want to give any of my time to disputers
Completely understand. Ignoring usually works well. I think there's even an option to put others on ignore status and not see their posts.
 
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Dan2255

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I can’t express words in Greek or any other. But this I do know. God has drawn all men through the preaching of the Gospel. The Holy Spirit brings the words to life in a person who hears the gospel. Christ said the harvest is great but the laborers are few.
Matthew 9
37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few; 38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.
1 Corinthians 1
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

It is through the preaching of Christ men are drawn by the Father.
 
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GDL

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I can’t express words in Greek or any other. But this I do know. God has drawn all men through the preaching of the Gospel. The Holy Spirit brings the words to life in a person who hears the gospel. Christ said the harvest is great but the laborers are few.
Matthew 9
37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few; 38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.
1 Corinthians 1
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

It is through the preaching of Christ men are drawn by the Father.
No need for Greek or Hebrew unless one desires to keep digging and the Spirit leads to do so. No need for anyone to slight another who is or is not so led. It can be beneficial to be taught by a person so led. It can also be beneficial to understand the reasoning of the Text.

What you present is in line with John6. God is drawing men to come to/believe in Jesus - God is teaching and those who hear and learn come to/believe in Jesus. How is a man to hear apart from a proclaiming/preaching? How is a man to believe in whom He has not heard?
 
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Dikaioumenoi

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All that work & I messed up. I meant to ask about 1John3:23. Since God has commanded belief in Jesus Christ, if we believe, have we not also been obedient to God?
Hahaha, no worries. Well I think my response still works as an answer. There's not much to offer in terms of a logical analysis, since the command is really just made up of two propositions joined by "and." P ^ Q. But concerning God's command that men obey Him, and how this command relates to the matters of contingent choice, the extrinsic necessity of choice, and the relationship between God's decree and His precepts, my prior reply addresses all these things.

As I'm reading through this in first pass (normally takes me a few and then some at times), this caught my eye. I'm going to have to try to digest more of the contingency vs. necessity, but I am not in any way suggesting the above. I see the drawing as necessity. I see the use of ability as contingency
I mean with respect to the same action. The use of ability is both contingent and necessary, in different respects. So I do think that your "ability implies contingency" argument takes for granted that "if a thing is contingent it cannot in any sense [also] be necessary."

Use of the ability is contingent in its mode of production, but [extrinsically] necessary as to the certainty of its occurrence. The constitution of the proximate cause gives it contingency; the decree of the ultimate cause gives it necessity. So those who choose to exercise this ability do so both contingently and necessarily, in which case there is nothing inherent in the language of ability that contradicts the hypothesis (argued for by the equivalent "hims") that God has predetermined that all those enabled to come will certainly do so. This was my issue with your suggestion that ability implies contingency. It's not that ability doesn't imply contingency, but that the contingency inherent in ability is only with respect to proximate causes. Merely pointing out this contingency is not therefore a response to the argument that has been presented, because the bigger issue that argument is concerned with is whether or not this contingency is compatible with the hypothesis that the choice to come to Christ is made extrinsically necessary by God's decree. My argument is that the two exist in harmony, and that John 6 (among other texts) is actually spelling this out for us:

Ultimate necessity: John 6:37a, 39, 44b
  • All that the Father gives me will come to me
  • I should lose nothing of all that he has given me
  • The Father draws him, and I will raise him up
Proximate contingency: John 6:37b, 40, 44a
  • Whoever comes to me I will never cast out
  • Everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life
  • No one can come to me (the contrary of which is having the ability to come)
There exists a mysterious harmony between the contingency of choice, as it pertains to the agent properly performing the act of choosing, and the necessity of the choices made, as they pertain to the ultimate cause which makes them certain.

Even omniscience entails this. Does God infallibly know what we will choose to do before we choose to do it? If so, then even though our choices are contingent with respect to their proximate cause, it is certain that they will occur as God foresees them. Otherwise His foreknowledge cannot be said to be infallible.
 
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GDL

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Hahaha, no worries. Well I think my response still works as an answer. There's not much to offer in terms of a logical analysis, since the command is really just made up of two propositions joined by "and." P ^ Q. But concerning God's command that men obey Him, and how this command relates to the matters of contingent choice, the extrinsic necessity of choice, and the relationship between God's decree and His precepts, my prior reply addresses all these things.
Glad you have a good sense of humor! Dumb mistake on my part.

I'm working through your previous posts and will consider what you say here. One clarification, though: My question concerns not that God commands that men obey Him, but more specifically that God commands belief. So, when one believes what God commands they believe, are not men also obeying God (even though they may not know of His command to believe)? Isn't the belief obedience? Whatever the case, how would logic reason this?
 
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Dikaioumenoi

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Glad you have a good sense of humor! Dumb mistake on my part.

I'm working through your previous posts and will consider what you say here. One clarification, though: My question concerns not that God commands that men obey Him, but more specifically that God commands belief. So, when one believes what God commands they believe, are not men also obeying God (even though they may not know of His command to believe)? Isn't the belief obedience? Whatever the case, how would logic reason this?
I would agree that belief is obedience, yes. Though I'm not sure I fully understand what you're asking.
 
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Peacemaker1

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What you present is in line with John6. God is drawing men to come to/believe in Jesus - God is teaching and those who hear and learn come to/believe in Jesus. How is a man to hear apart from a proclaiming/preaching? How is a man to believe in whom He has not heard?
Jesus draws all men to Him, that is fulfilled, my new thread speaks about how t
he preaching was done, by whom, who receives it, who does not.


John 12:32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
 
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