New Sabbatarian subforum?

[Jerushabelle]

It sounds like the modern day Messianic movement.

I know, it does. As I said, however, I have met Sabbatarians in many different denominations who worship privately on Friday at sundown. Some I know study the Torah. I think of it more as an intense desire to align more closely with Jesus and His activities when He was on earth. One group locally meets to study the Torah, worship, etc. and there are Lutherans, Catholics, Baptists, Messianics and one Methodist among them. Just watching them interact and care for each other as Christians should has filled me with joy. One man recently learned that he is of Jewish descent and a woman made the comment that we are all descended from Noah's sons. These are people who see themselves as God sees them and have learned that if we believe the Holy Scriptures, then we are all of one family and if we believe in Jesus/Yeshua then we are all of one Body. There is so much joy and wonder in that.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Sure, why not? Around here it appears that anything and everything goes whether it's right or wrong!

not necessarily .

 

[The Templar]

One user posts: "Sure, why not? Around here it appears that anything and everything goes whether it's right or wrong!"

Another responds: "not necessarily ."

Another member of this forum gave a good, I mean bad, example of what I believe Jerushabelle is trying to say. This member has "Witness, Mercy, Life Together." posted next to his avatar while posting this loving and considerate message:

"I for one would like to see Sabbatarian discussions confined to a subforum where they can be simply and efficiently ignored.

Who agrees with me?"

I wonder what this topic has to do with him?
Why does he feel the need to degrade his brothers and sisters in Christ this way?
Why must others join in?
There are many subjects I could point out and "bash" with, but is that what Yeshua wants from us?
When do we gather together to do the work The Lord has called us to?
If the forum leaders decide to open a forum for Sabbath observing Christians would you consider it less Christian than, say, a Lutheran forum?
The less unity and consideration we show for others in The Body of Christ the more we make Satan smile.
Let's all pray before we post, OK?

 

[ImperialJohn]

Provided the area also incorporates the other teachings related to Saturday Sabbath...

..I.E. Michael the archangel is Christ, soul - sleep & God could have killed Christ permanantely.
..My answer is also yes if the above can be combined.

Or simply create a section in U.T. for it.

The Sabbath is not U.T. though. I suspect that's where many so called Christians on these forums would like to put it as its inconvenient to them.

Worship G-d every day of the week sure, but remember that the Sabbath is a day of rest specificially chosen by G-d for Man. It is G-ds holy day. It is the fourth commandment of the Bible, not a minor commandment but a major commandment. It is a day for us to rest and do no work. A day to honour G-d and give thanks for his tremendous creation work and for sending his son Jesus for our salvation.

Remember the Sabbath is the last day of the week the seventh day (Western Friday Sunset to Saturday Sunset) and signifies the seventh millenium (the Last Great Day) when Christ will have returned to Earth in his second coming glory to rule directly for a thousand years as King of kings. It is by no means insignificant and is very much a part of G.T.

Right the way through your bible there is no change in the Sabbath from Genesis to Revelation. Bible Prophesy shows that in G-ds future kingdom we will all worship and bow down to him on the Sabbath day. Isaiah 66

God’s day of rest the Sabbath has never changed, it has always remained the same and occurred from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset.

I believe it is highly important that as a Christian I follow the bible, commandments, and teachings of Jesus. The fourth commandment of the bible is to remember the Sabbath day to sanctify it. Jesus and his disciples and the early church after the cross, kept the correct day of rest the Sabbath day from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset.

Mark 7:7-9 shows that many even go so far as to worship Christ, and all in vain because they do not obey God’s commandments especially the Sabbath but follow the traditions of men by which Satan has deceived the whole world.

If people wish to relegate a major part of being a follower of Christ to a subforum and remain in ignorance of Sabbath truth and what your Bibles say, then these truly are not Christian forums they are forums solely for Catholics and their offshoots and those intollerant of Bible truth and Sabbath keeping denominations.

I don't wish to relegate the Sabbath as kept by Jesus and his apostles to any subforum. Christian Forums have already been Forumised, Categorised and Sub-Forumed to death as it is.

If there should be any need for a Sabbath forum then it should be in Faith Groups as a major Sabbatarian forum (not a subforum) for the many denominations that keep the correct day of rest, the biblical Sabbath of G-d holy and sanctify it. E.g. Messianic Jews, SDA's, Church of G-d believers, Samarians, Messianic Gentiles etc etc.

Cheers,

John

 

[ImperialJohn]

I'm confused-would other forums (such as the Messianic forum) be eliminiated
and put into this new forum? Would it also include SDA?
I'm not sure I understand what a Sabbatarian is.

Sabbatarian is anyone who keeps the correct biblical Sabbath. Messianic Jews, Messianic Gentiles, SDA's, Church of God, Samarians, other Christians, and a number of other religions and denominations.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Sabbatarian is anyone who keeps the correct biblical Sabbath. Messianic Jews, Messianic Gentiles, SDA's, Church of God, Samarians, other Christians, and a number of other religions and denominations.

Interesting. So do you think non-Jewish gentiles should keep Saturday sabbat as they do
Just curious

http://www.christianforums.com/t7462687-20/#post54681091
sabbath for Jews and Gentiles

 

[ImperialJohn]

I think putting a theology forum with a congregational forum would defeat its purpose . i recall some sabbath discussions being referred from non-denom to General Theology because it's not something they want discussed there .

so allowing for that there has to be a place where one can discuss this theological topic in the theological area .

That's rather strange as there are plenty of non-denominationals as well as denominationals that keep the Biblical Sabbath.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

That's rather strange as there are plenty of non-denominationals as well as denominationals that keep the Biblical Sabbath.

So

 

[ImperialJohn]

yeah, this is supposed to be about Christian theology . not judaism .

Christian theology not Catholic and its offshoots, at least according to the title of this website "Christianforums" maybe not its statement of faith!

Christian Theology is Genesis to Revelation including the Sabbath and all of the food laws. Anything else is Unorthodox theology.

John

 

[ContraMundum]

There are many Sabbaths in the Bible. Sabbatarians seem to only care about the weekly one.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Christian theology not Catholic and its offshoots, at least according to the title of this website "Christianforums" maybe not its statement of faith!

Christian Theology is Genesis to Revelation including the Sabbath and all of the food laws. Anything else is Unorthodox theology.

John

This thread is about the Jewish Sabbath....not Christian Theology

http://www.christianforums.com/t7392923-31/#post52748967
How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled

 

[ImperialJohn]

OY! Yes, of course, let's move from multiple Jesus to multiple God!!

Do we forget that our God, the only God, was and is the God of the Jews and they are His chosen people? Do we forget that Jesus/Yeshua was a Jew who worshiped on the Sabbath according to God's command and told all to honor His Father as He honored His Father? Do we forget that on the night that He was betrayed, Jesus was in the upper room celebrating Passover (an odd thing for a Christian to do) and following His death, His resurrection took place on the Sabbath because the women went to the tomb on the first day of the week (being what we now call Sunday or the Lord's Day, as they could not during the Sabbath) and found it empty?

Also, for people who keep asking what a Sabbatarian is, it's a movement that attempts to reconstruct the earliest forms of Christianity. It's also called Primitive Apostolic Christianity since it is representative of the Christianity that the twelve Apostles practiced. Not every Sabbatarian believes in Apostolic succession considering it's very hard to prove prior to 300AD. This group of Christians arose from the desire to be more like Jesus and His disciples; to move more toward the roots of the Christian faith as a result of the lack of Spirit evident fruits in so many people affiliated with different denominations. I personally find nothing wrong with Sabbatarians. What can possibly be wrong with wanting to be more like Jesus, or Peter or Paul or any of those whom God favored? It's interesting that I have found Sabbatarians in almost every Christian denomination.

There are also some followers of Christ in the world who have never stopped keeping Sabbath since the time of Jesus and never needed to reconstruct it as they never abandoned it with the mainstream who moved away.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

There are also some followers of Christ in the world who have never stopped keeping Sabbath since the time of Jesus and never needed to reconstruct it as they never abandoned it with the mainstream who moved away.

May I ask what Denomination you are?
You sound a lot like the SDA's is the reason I ask.

Do you keep the Jewish Saturday sabbath? Just curious

http://www.christianforums.com/t6982465-107/#post44368491
Is Sunday worship the mark of the beast?

 

[ContraMundum]

Christian theology not Catholic and its offshoots, at least according to the title of this website "Christianforums" maybe not its statement of faith!

Christian Theology is Genesis to Revelation including the Sabbath and all of the food laws. Anything else is Unorthodox theology.

John

As a Jew who converted to Christianity, I can tell you with confidence that since Mt Sinai the unbroken belief of the Jews is that the Sabbath has always been considered a sign between God and the children of Israel (Ex 31:16,17), and for thousands of years- since before the Cross- no Jew has ever believed (and this would have included Jesus and His Apostles) that Gentiles need to keep the Sabbath. Thus, the Council mentioned in Acts 15 makes perfect sense and proves that the Apostles understood this distinction and carried it over with them. They affirmed the Biblical and Jewish belief that Gentiles don't need to keep the Sabbath (Acts 15:23-29)

Conversely, to take the "Sabbatarian" position makes the Jerusalem Council seem heretical and confused about the Mosaic Covenant. Why tell Gentiles not to keep a law that God said they should keep? Rather, they gave the correct understanding. In fact, Sabbatarians don't even know how to keep the Sabbath unless they follow oral tradition. They are way out of their depth.

I say the Jews- and the Apostles are correct. Sabbath keeping was never meant to be a sign between God and the Gentiles. You say both are wrong.

Now, I know the Sabbath is all that the Sabbatarians can discuss or will debate with any conviction, but I really don't want to debate you. I won't change my position, and I know your arguments and and bored to death with them already.

 

[ImperialJohn]

Interesting. So do you think non-Jewish gentiles should keep Saturday sabbat as they do
Just curious

I don't believe there is any such thing as "Saturday Sabbat". The Sabbath is the seventh day of the week, a unique day. It lasts from our western invented days of Friday sunset to Saturday sunset. So while the major part of Sabbath does fall on Saturday, Saturday is not the Sabbath nor Sunday. These are pagan days.

Messianic Gentiles do keep the Biblical Sabbath as do many other gentile followers of Christ.

Followers of Christ as per the Bible and Christs example as well as the apostles example should also keep Sabbath.

It is their own choice of their own free will though. I certainly am not going to tell anyone else what they must or must not do, it is a decision they have to make themselves.

There is however a great instruction book from G-d which they can use as a guide

Cheers,

John

 

[ImperialJohn]

There are many Sabbaths in the Bible. Sabbatarians seem to only care about the weekly one.

There is only one Sabbath Day, and that's the important day of the week for believers (friday sunset to saturday sunset). As per the fourth commandment kept by Jesus, his apostles and the early church after the cross.

John

 

[ImperialJohn]

This thread is about the Jewish Sabbath....not Christian Theology

When did the Sabbath become Jewish only?

It is not only the Jews who have kept the Biblical Sabbath. Many Christians have kept it since the cross. Many Christians have discovered biblical truth and started keeping the correct day again. Samarians have always kept Sabbath and they are not Jews. Greeks also worshipped on the Sabbath in synagogues and they were not Jewish but Gentile followers of Christ. So I believe you may be mistaken. This seems to be a discussion on the Sabbath and whether it should be relegated to a sub-forum and given less importance and significance.

I say read your Bible and form your own conclusion. There is no change in the Sabbath right the way through your Bible. It is the day G-d wants us to keep as a day of rest and to honour him on. It is not a chore or a burden but an amazing gift.

John

 

[ContraMundum]

There is only one Sabbath Day

That's not exactly true, is it? Think about it.

and that's the important day of the week for believers (friday sunset to saturday sunset). As per the fourth commandment kept by Jesus, his apostles

All Jews under the Mosiac Covenant, so to be expected.

and the early church after the cross.

Not universally true at all- early Christians preached against Sabbatarianism (see Collosians for a start). Sure, some kept the Sabbath (The Jewish ones or Gentile Judaizers), but it was never considered a sign of orthodoxy.

 

[ContraMundum]

When did the Sabbath become Jewish only?

At Mt Sinai.

Exo 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

 

[ImperialJohn]

As a Jew who converted to Christianity, I can tell you with confidence that since Mt Sinai the unbroken belief of the Jews is that the Sabbath has always been considered a sign between God and the children of Israel (Ex 31:16,17), and for thousands of years- since before the Cross- no Jew has ever believed (and this would have included Jesus and His Apostles) that Gentiles need to keep the Sabbath.

You are now speaking for Jesus and his apostles?

Jesus said the following:

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 5 (ESV)

Here Jesus is quite specifically saying that he has not come to do away with the law or the prophets and that the law shall stand until this present Earth and Universe disappear and “all” has been accomplished. “All” is a pretty big word and there can be no mistake about what the Messiah meant with this plain statement of fact. Heaven and Earth are still here!

I believe it does matter which day, that it is highly important and significant that I keep the Sabbath Day holy (Friday sunset to Saturday sunset), the fourth commandment of the bible as kept and commanded by Jesus, from ancient times, for all times to come, until Heaven and Earth disappear.

The Heavens and the Earth are still here people. All has not yet been acomplished.

The Children of Israel are both Jew and Gentile.

While I agree with you that many orthodox Jews as well as mainstream Christians would strongly disagree that Gentiles should keep Sabbath that does not mean they are correct.

"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Matthew 24

The Bible confirms that even the very elect, those who bear Christ's name "Christians" would be deceived.

"As his custom was, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures" Acts 17:2

Paul one of the Apostles is continuing to go into the Synagogue on the Sabbath and preach about G-d and about the Scriptures. There doesn't appear to be any break in the Sabbath in the Bible! The Sabbath continues on and on throughout the pages of your Bible without any major change occurring.

"Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks." Acts 18:4

The interesting thing about this is that there are some Greeks on the scene here. Paul was in Greece at this time and there may have been Jewish synagogues in Greece, but why were these Greeks going to a Jewish synagogue? Why were they not in a church or something else worshipping G-d, worshipping Christ? It seems like the Greeks are following the Jewish lead here in the keeping of the Sabbath day and going and worshipping G-d on that same day!

The Early Christian Church continued to keep the Biblical Sabbath. But slowly over time when you get into the later part of the first century of Christianity you find some Christians moving away from the Sabbath to a Sunday observance. Some of the reasoning behind it had to do with the destruction of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem when the Romans came down hard on them. Many of the Christians who were also observing the Sabbath and holy days were also being persecuted because they worshipped in a similar manner to the Jews of that time. And some of them began to move away from the Sabbath because they were not crazy about being persecuted. Did G-d ever ask you to move away from this Sabbath day? Did Jesus ever say to move away from his Sabbath day? No! Absolutely not. Men said lets move away from the Sabbath and go to Sunday.

Throughout history there have been Christians who have continued to keep the correct day the Sabbath day and there continues to be today.

Below I am quoting to you from Isaiah 66. You might not be convinced by me quoting from the Old Testament but you must realise that when the Apostles and writers of the New Testament were quoting the scriptures the only thing they were quoting from was the Old Testament.

"As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure. From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the LORD." Isaiah 66

Understand the context here, the context of that is the End Times! This is the Kingdom of G-d being set up, and he says that people are going to worship him on his Sabbath Day! What Sabbath is that? It's the Biblical Sabbath of Friday sunset to Saturday sunset; there is absolutely no doubt about it. You see this at the beginning of your bible, you see it with Moses, you see it with Jesus, you see it with the Apostles, the early first century church, and we also see it in the future Kingdom! The Sabbath matters it is the specific day that G-d wants us to observe his rest. So why not do it?

"There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience." Hebrews 4:9-11 (New Testament!)

So once again it goes back to G-d’s rest after creation. It is a memorial of that rest. It is a memorial every week for us to remember G-d and what he has done for us. The awesome creation that he has created. Here in the New Testament scripture clearly shows that the Sabbath is for all who believe in G-d and that we should make every effort to keep Sabbath so that "no one" will fall by following example of disobedience "by not keeping Sabbath" and the commandments of G-d.

A final question, why did G-d take six days to do his creation work and then rest on the seventh when he could have created everything in the blink of an eye? Throughout the Bible there are a lot of things with double meanings. Something that is literal and applies at that time is also a foreshadowing of a future event to take place or has a double meaning. Abraham with his son Isaac was a foreshadowing of what would happen on the cross. I believe that G-d took the six days and rested on the seventh for a specific reason. It was to signify the time we have on this Earth. The Six days represent six thousands years we are cut off from G-d with the seventh representing the millennial reign of Christ and the thousand years of peace when there will be no suffering.

Cheers,

John