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Featured New Heaven and Earth Discussion

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Tsquared, Jun 19, 2017.

  1. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    There will be a new law, which comes out of Zion, and the mortals of every nation will all be held responsible to obey that law. There will be a new temple built in Jerusalem. Israel will be divided along ALL new borders, to each of the 12 tribes. Please show Scripture for your "atonement" question for discussion.
     
  2. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    How does that answer my question about physical circumcision and animal sacrifice?

    Well, its from the scriptures YOU referenced in Ezekiel 40-44:

    If we are to believe your interpretation of these scriptures, the shedding of the blood of bulls and goats will be required for Atonement of Sins and acceptance by Jesus in the "Millennium":

    Ezekiel 40:39

    In the porch of the gate were two tables on each side, on which to slaughter the burnt offering, the sin offering and the guilt offering.


    Ezekiel 42:13

    the priests who are near to the LORD shall eat the most holy things. There they shall lay the most holy things, the grain offering, the sin offering and the guilt offering;


    Ezekiel 43:20

    'You shall take some of its blood and put it on its four horns and on the four corners of the ledge and on the border round about; thus you shall cleanse it and make atonement for it.


    Ezekiel 43:21

    'You shall also take the bull for the sin offering


    Ezekiel 43:22

    'On the second day you shall offer a male goat without blemish for a sin offering


    Ezekiel 43:27

    'When they have completed the days, it shall be that on the eighth day and onward, the priests shall offer your burnt offerings on the altar, and your peace offerings; AND I WILL ACCEPT YOU.



    As far as I can tell, in your version of the Millennial Kingdom, Jesus "once for all", Sacrificing atonement on the Cross becomes Null and Void, entirely powerless and ineffectual to atone for any ones sin.

    That power gets transferred BACK to The Blood of Bulls and Goats in what you call "a new law, which comes out of Zion, and the mortals of every nation will all be held responsible to obey that law.."

    Am I right?

    And you believe that New law also re institutes the requirement of Physical Circumcision, yes?

    Ezekiel 44:9

    'Thus says the Lord GOD, "No foreigner uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh of all the foreigners who are among the sons of Israel, shall enter My sanctuary
     
  3. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Since I didn't quote these verses, it's obvious YOU see the meaning of these verses!!

    How is it you are calling this MY interpretation???
     
  4. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Not following you here. Besides the law of Christ, what is this new law that mortals must follow that you speak of?

    Additionally, what purpose would a 3rd temple serve? God does not live in a building made by human hands. The temple was destroyed and Christ was raised in 3 days. We worship in spirit and truth.
     
  5. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Sure you did... in your post #59 HERE when you said:
    "The 1,000 year reign of Jesus is the time period being defined in verses 18-23, and Isa 2, and Eze 40 - 44, and Zech 14, and many others."

    You claim above that the Millennium is defined in Ezekiel 40-44 do you not?

    I just posted several scriptures from Ezekiel 40-44 that specify conditions that YOU BELIEVE take place in the 1000 year reign of Christ, Namely Animal sacrifice for Atonement of Sins and Acceptance By Jesus as well as a requirement of Physical Circumcision.

    Are you backing away from that claim now, or do you stand by it?
     
  6. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

    What purpose did the first temple serve, since God didn't live in it either .... or the 2nd temple, since that condition was also true then??

    Yes, both temples were destroyed. Yes Jehovah/YHVH God raised Jesus from hell 3 days after Jesus died. Yes, the true believers worship in mind/spirit and truth ...... do you think these random points erase the prophecies????
     
  7. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Obviously, you selected verses that clearly contradict YOUR interpretation.
    This is my point.
    This isn't MY interpretation of these verses .... I merely cited the REFERENCES .. I didn't interpret the texts.

    Are you denying those verses, or are you willing to admit your INTERPRETATION of the 1,000 year reign is in error?
     
  8. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Joh 4:21  Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 
    Joh 4:22  You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 
    Joh 4:23  But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 
    Joh 4:24  God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." 



    2Pe 3:10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 




    Heb 11:16  But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them. 



    Heb 12:18  For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, 
    Heb 12:19  and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. 
    Heb 12:20  (For they could not endure what was commanded: "AND IF SO MUCH AS A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT SHALL BE STONED OR SHOT WITH AN ARROW." 
    Heb 12:21  And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I AM EXCEEDINGLY AFRAID AND TREMBLING.") 
    Heb 12:22  But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 
    Heb 12:23  to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 
    Heb 12:24  to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. 


    I am not planning a trip to the earthly Jerusalem, on this sin-cursed world.

    I am looking for the same thing Peter was looking for in 2 Peter chapter 3.

    .
     
  9. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    These verses do not contradict my interpretation.

    You said they "Define the 1000 year reign of Jesus"

    Do they or do they not?

    You said they "Define the 1000 year reign of Jesus"

    Do they or do they not?

    I'm not denying the verses. I'm asking you to support your claim that they "define the millennium"

    Can you?

    I gave you several to choose from.
    Do they "Define the 1000 year reign of Jesus" as you claimed, or do they not?

    If my interpretation can be shown to be in error, I'll happily admit such.

    Will you likewise?
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
  10. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Exactly.
    When Jesus died on the cross, the Mosaic Law was finished.
    Jerusalem was no longer the center of God's worship.
    BUT, the church age is only temporary too!
    When Jesus returns to this planet, and conquers EVERY nation, he is going to set up a Theocracy, with Jerusalem AGAIN as the center of worship for his God.
    These verses are discussing events AFTER the 1,000 year reign, and the judgment. Note, Rev 20 is the 1,000 year reign, ending with the Lake of Fire Judgment. Rev 21 and 22 is the NhNe .. and the holy city New Jerusalem.

    Yes, Jesus mediated a New Testament, a BETTER covenant .... which came into effect on the day of Pentecost.
    But, this current age, also called "the time of the Gentiles", is coming to an end, when Jesus returns in holy vengeance.
    (Rev 19)
    The 1,000 year reign happens at the END of "the heaven and earth which are now"... 2 Peter 3:7
     
  11. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Wonderful! Sorry, I thought you were denying the 1,000 year reign of Jesus!
    So, apparently we agree?
    Of course they do.
    Sure.
    Should this be a separate thread?


    Of course!
     
  12. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    I deny no such thing... But I suspect I take a different view of it than you do..
    I'm sure there is much we can find agreement on.

    Then lets go back to questions to you in my post #62...

    Do You believe Human Beings will be required to render Blood Animal Sacrifices directly to Jesus for Atonement of their Sins and acceptance by Him in the Millennium?

    Do you believe Human Beings will be required to be Physically Circumcised in the Millennium?
     
  13. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    The Everlasting Gospel age is temporary?

    Ephesians 3:21
    21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
     
  14. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    There is no "Everlasting Gospel age". There is an Everlasting Gospel, which is true for all ages.
    Let's include MORE of the context;
    Eph 3:14-21 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might by His spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. 20 Now unto Him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21 Unto Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

    So, we can see that Paul is acknowledging glory to God, Christ's father, throughout all time. How were you thinking this applies to our discussion?
     
  15. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Yes.
    No.
    Jesus is the High Priest forever, after the order of Melchisedec.
    Jesus is High Priest for Jehovah/YHVH God.

    Not sure, the prophecies mention the "uncircumcised" to describe the Gentile nations but that may be a figurative/historical title.
     
  16. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    What do you say is the purpose or function of the everlasting Gospel?

    Does it ever cease to function in and for its purpose?

    The text says "Glory unto him in the church throughout all ages." Does it not?
     
  17. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    For what purpose?
    The text says they are for "atonement and acceptance".
    Do you agree with the text?

    Is not the function of a priest to intercede on behalf of sinners?

    Does Christ ever cease in that function?

    Again, the text literally says "No one Uncircumcised in heart AND uncircumcised in flesh may enter the sanctuary"

    But maybe you aren't really a literalist and your view requires spiritualization and allegorization of the text for it to fit your paradigm?

    I guess that's possible.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
  18. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Absolutely not.

    The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

    The New Covenant is "everlasting" in the verse below.
    Therefore, it does not come to an end before the Second Coming of Christ.


    Heb 13:20  Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 

    .
     
  19. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    The gospel is "the good news", it never stops being good news.
    What does Jesus mean when he says;
    Matt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Where are the 12 tribes of Israel NOW, and where will they be after Jesus returns?

    You don't think any of the church will live in other ages?? You think they will stop glorifying Jesus' father??
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2017
  20. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Of course I agree with the text.
    Do you agree with the text?

    That's only one of a priests functions. They also act as mediator, do you think Christ will ever stop being a mediator? Do you believe Jesus IS a High Priest? What does that mean to you?
    Good point... and point taken. It certainly looks like circumcission will be a requirement for entering that new temple.
    Tell me, has the division of the land of Israel EVER matched Eze 45?
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2017
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