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Featured New Heaven and Earth Discussion

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Tsquared, Jun 19, 2017.

  1. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    What does that matter?

    1 Kings 19:18 (cf. Romans 11:4)
    Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.”

    What percentage of Israel do you think these 7000 represented?
    Whatever percentage it was, it was all that was needed, no?

    No, they are remnant believing Israel who stayed put and faithfully followed Israel's Messiah.

    The Vast Majority in 1 Kings Bowed to Baal, but Israel FULLY continued through the Tiny Remnant of 7000, no?

    As always, the continuation of Israel in times of Apostasy is carried on through the FAITHFUL REMNANT only.
    The rest are Destroyed and have NO INHERITANCE.

    TRUE Israel is carried on not through the lineages of the wicked sons but rather through the OBEDIENT FEW (called the "remnant"), such as was true in Moses' Day (Acts 7:37-38), Isaiah's day (Romans 9:27-29) Elijah's day (Romans 11:3-5). and Paul's Day (Romans 11:5)

    I'm not spinning anything... I'm using scripture to interpret scripture.

    Why don't you take the "fulness" verses I cited and show me why they do not mean what I contend?

    Lets try an replace "fulness" in those verses with your spin of "full number" and see how it works out:

    John 1:16
    And of his full number have all we received, and grace for grace.

    Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their full number?

    Romans 15:29 And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the full number of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.

    Ephesians 1:23 Which is his body, the full number of him that filleth all in all.

    This is the way you interpret these verses??


    Times of the Gentiles does not = Fulness of the Gentiles.
    No scripture teaches what you are claiming.

    In the Parallel verse in Revelation, we see that the "Time of Gentile trampling" was ordained to last exactly 42 months after it began:


    Revelation 11:2
    But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2017
  2. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Ummm..... you do realize I didn't write the Scriptures, right?
    When I quote a Scripture to you .... that's not MY idea, that's what the Scripture actually states. If you don't LIKE that, it's the Scriptures you're arguing with, not me.


    It is absolutely true, that Jesus died once for all..... even for those who sinned before his death, and who sacrificed animals for atonement. Their sacrifices were not abomination ... unless they were insincere. Their sacrifices were required by Jehovah's commandments.
    In the New Testament age, the church age, we are NOT required to do animal sacrifices.
    In the 1,000 year reign of Jesus, it will NOT be blasphemy to again do animal sacrifices, as a reminder of Christ's death.
    Your attempted logic fails.

    Jesus stated all the laws are BASED on those two ..... NOT that there is no OTHER law.

    Wrong. Those sacrifices will be in honor of Christ's sacrifice.
    No, ignoring the restoration of Israel is "not knowing" God's plan. The Church age is temporary, and will end with Jesus' 2nd coming. At THAT point Jesus will establish his God's kingdom on this earth, for which Jesus taught mankind to pray; "thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven".
    Luke 19:12
    He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
    Luke 20:9 Then began he to speak to the people this parable; A certain man planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a long time.

    Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

    1) Yes.
    2) The Deliverer has not come out of Zion yet to take away ISRAELS sins, (see Eze 20:30-44)
    3) Exactly. Christ is ruling in the hearts of the believers now. He has NOT returned in glory, to sit on the throne of his glory yet. WHEN he does, he will make all the righteous kings and priests, and they will ALL reign ON THE EARTH;
     
  3. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Paul does NOT state "God will save everyone". Paul very clearly states;
    1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
    Phil 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
     
  4. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Paul, like Jesus and the rest of Scriptures, calls death sleep.
    1 Corinthians 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

    1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

    1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
     
  5. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    It matters because your attempting to make the small number of Jews converted during the 3 1/2 year period that the gospel went to them, CONTRADICT Christ's words;
    Matt 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

    You are not correct.
    You're denial isn't persuasive. It's just denial.


    Your INTERPRETATION of this text doesn't match reality. History, and the daily news will PROVE; Jerusalem has been "trodden underfoot" of the Gentiles from 70AD through today.
     
  6. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    You have not provided scripture showing that specifically animal sacrifices will resume in the future. Please provide scripture showing that they will resume and that their purpose is to honor Christ's sacrifice.

    Yes, you are correct, they were commanded to sacrifice as a shadow of future things. Their sacrifices were not an abomination because Christ had not died yet. Again, you have not provided scripture showing that animal sacrifices will resume in the future and what purpose these sacrifices will serve.

    Agree
    Hebrews 10:19 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.
    Please provide scripture showing animal sacrifices will be used to honor Christ's sacrifice. Otherwise, "your attempted logic fails" and this discussion is pointless. Again, go and learn friend, God desires mercy not sacrifice.

    No one said "ignoring the restoration of Israel is "not knowing" God's plan.

    1) You haven't provided scripture to support this.
    2) So Christ's 1st sacrifice was not enough? He will have to die again for just Israel's sins?
    3) So Christ is not yet ruling?
     
  7. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    this does not answer the question. I asked what you think.
     
  8. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    When do you say this happened?
    When was the Kingdom taken from them and Given to another nation?


    Talk is cheap.
    Show me the scripture that proves this.

    Yet you still can not produce even one scripture that teaches what you claim. :scratch:
    Apparently you have stacks of Newspapers and History Books you are eager to point to, but when it comes to scripture... a vacuum.
    I'm not much for Newspaper eisegesis.

    Can you stick to scripture?

    I Didn't write Revelation 11:2
    Your argument is with it's author.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2017
  9. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    So you are saying Paul is contradicting Himself?
     
  10. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    I am very curious to see the scriptures @Dartman believes teach this as well.

    So far, the scriptures he has pointed to in Ezekiel 40-44 teach NOT that the sacrifices are memorial and in Honor of Christ's past sacrifice... it clearly states they are proprietary offerings to atone for sin and gain acceptance by God.

    But, I don't think @Dartman is much of a literalist. For from what I've seen he is quick to allegorize and spiritualize scriptures that do not fit his paradigm.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2017
  11. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    On one level... I believe that the Jewish people will soon literally fulfill the
    prophecies of Ezekiel chapter 40 - 48 by building a literal Third TEmple complex.

    The years 2030 and 2070 are both logical times for this to occur by.

    The coming down of the New Jerusalem.... could be one thousand years later... around 3030.....
    three days..... three thousand years from the death burial and resurrection of Messiah Yeshua Jesus.

    I believe that the massive New Jerusalem indentation at the bottom so that it will fit perfectly over the Ezekiel chapter 40 - 48 complex.
     
  12. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    No sir, Paul is contradicting your claims, as the Scriptures I provided show. It's really simple, the people that were the 1st century church are all sleeping/resting in the grave/dust/hell... waiting to be resurrected back to life;
    John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2017
  13. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    On the day of Pentecost the Church age began. Salvation was no longer "of the Jews"... as Jesus stated in
    John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

    Salvation was in belief in Jesus, whom Jehovah/YHVH had made Christ, Lord, Priest and Prince.

    Acts 2:36-40 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

    This didn't prevent any of the Jewish race from accepting Jesus, and a few did. But, Salvation was now through accepting Jesus of Nazareth as Christ and Lord, repenting, and being baptized in his name.
     
  14. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    There are many;
    Jer 33:14-18
    14 Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will perform that good word which I have spoken concerning the house of Israel and concerning the house of Judah.
    15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause a Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. 16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely; and this is (the name) whereby she shall be called: Jehovah our righteousness. 17 For thus saith Jehovah: David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; 18 neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt-offerings, and to burn meal-offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.


    As Ezekiel is receiving a vision about the future temple, Jehovah explains the setting;
    Ezek 39:25-29 Therefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Now will I bring back the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for my holy name.
    26 And they shall bear their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they shall dwell securely in their land, and none shall make them afraid;
    27 when I have brought them back from the peoples, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations.
    28 And they shall know that I am Jehovah their God, in that I caused them to go into captivity among the nations, and have gathered them unto their own land; and I will leave none of them any more there;
    29 neither will I hide my face any more from them; for I have poured out my Spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord Jehovah.


    In the context of the description of that future temple, are NUMEROUS references to sacrifices, and burnt-offerings;

    Ezek 40:39 And in the porch of the gate were two tables on this side, and two tables on that side, to slay thereon the burnt-offering and the sin-offering and the trespass-offering.

    Ezekiel 42:13 the priests who are near to the LORD shall eat the most holy things. There they shall lay the most holy things, the grain offering, the sin offering and the guilt offering;

    Ezekiel 43:20 'You shall take some of its blood and put it on its four horns and on the four corners of the ledge and on the border round about; thus you shall cleanse it and make atonement for it.

    Ezekiel 43:21 'You shall also take the bull for the sin offering

    Ezekiel 43:22 'On the second day you shall offer a male goat without blemish for a sin offering

    Ezekiel 43:27 'When they have completed the days, it shall be that on the eighth day and onward, the priests shall offer your burnt offerings on the altar, and your peace offerings; AND I WILL ACCEPT YOU.


    Zech 14:12-21 And this shall be the plague wherewith Jehovah will smite all the peoples that have warred against Jerusalem: their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their sockets, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. 13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from Jehovah shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbor, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbor.
    14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the nations round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance. 15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in those camps, as that plague. 16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso of (all) the families of the earth goeth not up unto Jerusalem to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts, upon them there shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, neither (shall it be) upon them; there shall be the plague wherewith Jehovah will smite the nations that go not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations that go not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLY UNTO JEHOVAH; and the pots in Jehovah's house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holy unto Jehovah of hosts; and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and boil therein: and in that day there shall be no more a Canaanite in the house of Jehovah of hosts.


    None of this has EVER come to pass yet! This law is a GLOBAL law, commanding ALL nations. And, yes, there are sacrifices dedicated to Jehovah's holiness. It is Jehovah's glory that Jesus, as Jehovah's "high priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek", is serving.
     
  15. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    I assume we can agree that this is Christ.

    Christ accomplished this


    Hebrews 9:11-12
    11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent(not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) 12 he entered once for all into the Holy Place, not taking the blood of goats and calves but his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption

    God brought them out of the Babylonian exile as promised.

    Again, you have not shown that animal sacrifices will be used to honor Christ's sacrifice. These verses only mention animal sacrifice for sin offerings. With Christ's sacrifice, there is no need for animal sacrifices. "For it is impossible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins."

    I'm pretty sure Loving God above all else and love your neighbor as yourself is a global law.
     
  16. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Yea, I don't mind learning from people with different perspectives and views on the lesser important issues, but I don't like when the cornerstone is messed with. Christ sacrifice was perfect and there is no need for future animal sacrifices. Saying there is belittles the work of the cross.
     
  17. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Wow.
    That's something.
     
  18. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    So you are saying this verse was fulfilled at Pentecost?:

    Matthew 21:41
    41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

    At what point during Pentecost were the scribes and Pharisees (those wicked men) "destroyed miserably"?

    Or are you claiming that is metaphorical?

    I agree with that 100%
     
  19. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Such a position would be unrecognizable by the apostles.
     
  20. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    This corrects the error in your question. You claimed Paul stated "God will save everyone".
     
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