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Mystery Bablyon...

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by ladylove, Sep 6, 2002.

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  1. LastDazed

    LastDazed New Member

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    Interesting words from someone who demonstrates 100% trust in the Catholic Church to tell him which 66 books are indeed the only "inspired" writing that belong in the "Bible". 

    Sola scriptura is an oxymoron, for you are, by default, automatically trusting in an authority outside of scripture (The Historic Catholic Chuirch) to tell you what books are the ONLY books that belong in scripture, for scripture alone does not provide that information. 

     
     
  2. Patmosman_sga

    Patmosman_sga Member

    375
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    Protestant
    The Catholic Church recognizes several additional books in the Old Testament (what Protestants refer to as "The Apocrypha"). But that does not make it a cult. It is an open question as to whether the Catholics "added" those books or the Protestants "subtracted" them.

    But, of course, John's "warning" in Revelation 22:18 has nothing to do with the number of books in the canon. In fact, contextually speaking, it only refers to Revelation itself. The decision to "close the canon" was made centuries ago by an ecumenical council. Since Protestants (adherents of "Sola Scriptura") do not recognize the decisions of the ecumenical councils as authoritative, then they really have no moral, theological, legal or historical justification for objecting to any additions to or subtractions from the canon. Those of us who acknowledge the authority of the councils, however, have the full authority of the Church Universal behind us.
     
  3. Frank

    Frank New Member

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    And therein lies the problem... :)
     
  4. Pastor N.B.

    Pastor N.B. Member

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    Cults? Catholic's catechism is a sumery [or test] of religous doctrine.

    Truth? 1 Tim. 2:5 in my Douay version.. "FOR THERE IS ONE GOD, AND [ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN, himself man, CHRIST JESUS]."

    Yet, where in scripture does this other [additional] stuff come from? (other than Rev. 3:9 perhaps?)
    "Pope John Paul 11...on Tuesday told Roman Catholics to seek forgiveness through the church and not directly from God. In a major document on the need for confession of sin, the pontiff laid down guidlines for the world's nearly 800 million Roman Catholics on the purpose of confessing sins to priests...The requirement for confessing sin through priests is one of the fundamental principles of Roman Catholicism. --The Associated Press, Dec. 11, 1984

    My Master says: "I am the [way, the TRUTH,] and life: [NO MAN COMMETH TO THE FATHER, BUT BY ME." John14:6

    And again, for your ADDITIONAL WORKS that are void to the Truth of God! (catechism)
    "If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues .... And if any man shall take away from the Words of the book ... God shall take away his part [out of the book of life, and out of the Holy city]." Rev.'s last few verses.

    And confession to [any] priest???
    "Now we know that God heareth [NOT SINNERS]." (open & flagrant)

    "If [regard] iniquity in my heart, [the Lord wll not hear me]." Psalms 66:18
    Of course that means the one 'confessing' his sin to moral man huh?

    Notice forum: Isaiah 59:1-2,
    "BEHOLD, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; nor his ear heavy that it can not hear: BUT your iniquities [HAVE SEPERATED BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR GOD, AND YOUR SINS HAVE HID HIS FACE FROM YOU, THAT HE WILL NOT HEAR]." And you are telling us God is the liar from the beginning, huh?

    Another:
    "All dogmatic decrees of the Pope, made with or without his general council, are INFALLIBLE ... Once made, no pope or council can reverse them ... This is the Catholic principle, that the Church cannot err in faith." --The Catholic World, June 1871, pgs. 422-423.

    Notice Rev. 3:8's last part & verse 9 for this deception! Refering to Philadelphia in verse 7 Christ says: "... thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my Word, [and not denied my NAME] ...Behold, I will make them of the [synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, But do lie] ..." And forum, BE SURE that you know that I am not teaching that Rom. 2:28-29's Jews are a denomination of Roman Catholics. This is for an apostate [PURE VIRGIN DENOMINATION in teaching only]. Catholicism in long, Long, LONG GONE! See 1 John 2:4

    Again be sure to note: John 10:16 tells us a truth, that the Master does have HIS IGNORANT CHILDREN in these false Folds! And in Rev. 18:4 we see the SAME PRECIOUS TRUTH. YET... BE CERTAIN TO NOTE THAT THE DENOMINATION IS PAST/TENSE & to REMAIN YOKED TO THIS STUFF FINDS ONE AN 'PARTAKER' AND JUDGED ETERNALLY LOST!

    And then the LORDS BOTTOM LINE in Joshua 7:12's last part of the verse, it GOSPELIZES A TRUTH, "NEITHER WILL I BE WITH YOU ANY MORE, EXCEPT YOU DESTROY THE ACCURSED FROM AMONG YOU." So class, if Christ leaves, who takes over? (any denomination) Again Rev. 3:9 & Matt. 23:15--P/N/B/
     
  5. Wolseley

    Wolseley Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu

    +1,559
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    Well. It appears that we poor deluded Catholics will all burn in hell forever, believing the doctrine of demons as we do.

    I can go into these points with you, Pastor N.B., but this is the wrong forum for it. Cut and paste your above post in the One Bread, One Body forum, and we'll take it from there.

    I eagerly await your post.
     
  6. Blackwing

    Blackwing Music Man With Black Wings(duh...)<img src="http:/

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    Non-Denom
    Ok let us settle everybody ok? If you want to keep on talking aboput doctrine then discuss it at another forum, we are talking about endtimes here, not anything else
     
  7. ladylove

    ladylove Active Member

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    It may BE a possibility that because the current pope is an elderly man, that the future pope could be so innerly corrupt and fool everyone within the Catholic heirarchy, that this future pope could be THE false prophet.&nbsp; It is not out of the realm of possibilty, my Catholic friends.&nbsp; This is what many see as inevitable and how the anti-christ will gain ultimate world domination, but I have many Catholic lay friends who truly do have a personal relationship with Christ and their fruit shows it and would oppose such false worship.&nbsp; What the Pastor and many others believe is that it is the Catholic heirarchy that is inherrently apostate and corrupt, not the lay parishinors or even some of the priesthood.&nbsp; I think it is an intriguing possibility that our Catholic friends must entertain.

    BTW, did you know that the Catholic Church never excommunicated Adolf Hitler, who was Catholic?&nbsp; Interesting information that may have relevance in the 70th week...
     
  8. Wolseley

    Wolseley Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu

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    Holy Scripture tells us that the Church speaks with Christ's voice (Luke 10:16); that it is led by the Holy Spirit (John 14:26 and 16:13); that it is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15), and that Christ is always with it (Matthew 28:20). In order for the Church to be inherently apostate and corrupt means that the Holy Spirit is no longer leading it into all Christ's teachings, that it no longer speaks with Christ's voice, that Scripture is incorrect in calling the Church the pillar of truth, and that Christ has abandoned it after He said He wouldn't. In light of this, I am one Catholic who does not entertain the ideas above, because I am not arrogant enough to make Jesus Christ out to be a liar.
    BTW, did you know that the Catholic Church didn't need to excommunicate Hitler? Hitler was automatically excommunicated by virtue of the things he did---he never went to Mass, he denegrated the Church, he persecuted the clergy, he killed innocent civilians, he engaged in aggresive war, he was involved in mass murder, you name it. These things brought upon him a latae sententiae, or automatic, excommunication; only an excommunication that is issued by decree of the Vatican (ferendae sententiae) has to be in writing. Simply because an excommunication was not issued in writing does not mean it didn't exist. Canon law states that an excommunication can take place "by the very commission of the offense". A modern example would be a woman who willingly procures an abortion; by that very action, she is automatically excommunicated.
     
  9. ladylove

    ladylove Active Member

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    Okay, I understand this is a sensitive subject for Catholics and even gentle criticism is difficult. I never intended to call all Catholics apostate, but I do have great reservations with how the Catholic heirarchy leads. I gently challenged you to do the same, but it is rejected. It is your choice. I respect that.

    If excommunication can be done with out official blessing of the Vatican, I for one would view the Catholic church as well, I just won't say it. Best wishes.
     
  10. Wolseley

    Wolseley Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu

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    Completely, totally, utterly, and unequivocably.
    Thank you.
    You too.

    Benedicat vos omnipotens Deus; Pater, et Filio, et Spiritus Sanctus.
     
  11. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Maybe we need to pour a little oil on this fire. We're not lookin' to go out. We're lookin' to go up.
    ^
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    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
     
  12. Brain Damage

    Brain Damage Generally Medicated

    +56
    Christian
    I believe mystery babylon to be jerusalem , the reasons of which have already been given by armothe -

    Compare what Jesus says in Matthew 23:37

    <I>"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! </I>

    To what John says in Rev 18:21-24

    <I>"So shall Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence, and shall be found no more... 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of ALL who have been slain on earth."</I>&nbsp;

    Also, lets consider what Jerimiah says in 4:30

    <I>O desolate one [Jerusalem], what will you do? Although you dress in scarlet, Although you decorate [yourself with] ornaments of gold, Although you enlarge your eyes with paint, In vain you make yourself beautiful </I>

    And Ezekiel 16:37

    <I>therefore I am going to gather all your [Israel's] lovers, with whom you found pleasure, those you loved as well as those you hated.
    I will gather them against you from all around and will strip you in front of them, and they will see all your nakedness.</I>

    To Revelation 17:4-16

    <I>17:4
    And the woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality...
    17:16 And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked,
    and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire.&nbsp; </I>
     
  13. Shimon

    Shimon Shalom!

    247
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    "Mystery Babylon" is referred to as a "harlot." What is a harlot? A harlot is someone who was unfaithful to the marriage covenant. Throughout scripture, Israel was always referred to as a "harlot" because she was unfaithful to her marriage covenant -- The Torah. The Torah *IS* the Marriage Covenant of the Lamb. To disobey the Torah is to be unfaithful the Marriage Covenant and become an adulteress.

    Babylon is referred to as *Mystery* Babylon because Israel has no knowledge of its own identity. Gentile Christianity is the Nation of Israel. There is no "church" there is only the nation of Israel -- and Israel has been just as disobedient to the Marriage Covenant in the past 2000 years following Yeshua's death as it was in the previous 2000 years *before* His death.

    Constantine committed exactly the same transgression as Jereboam in leading Israel to sin. This is Constantine's Creed, an oath that was forced upon Jewish and Gentile believers:

    Shimon
     
  14. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Not another one, who thinks the church is Israel. You have been deceived my friend. So much so, that you speak the Jewish language, or are you Jewish by blood also?? I can prove you're wrong with the scriptures. There is definitely a difference between the church and Israel. Ask me how I know, and I'll tell you.
     
  15. Shimon

    Shimon Shalom!

    247
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    There is no "church," there is only the Nation of Israel.&nbsp; In fact, the word "church" is derived from the same root from we get the word "circus."

    Many have tried, all have failed.&nbsp; If you wish to discuss it, I'd be more than happy to do so.

    &nbsp;

    Shimon
     
  16. Pastor N.B.

    Pastor N.B. Member

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  17. Shimon

    Shimon Shalom!

    247
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    Pastor N.B. :

    The dialogue between me and RollinThunder has thus far been on matters concerning events of the past.&nbsp; This is the eschatology forum, which deals with events of the future.&nbsp; Am I to undestand correctly that you choose to refrain from dialogue&nbsp;with me on topics&nbsp;of future events because of my beliefs concerning events of the past?

    I interpreted RollinThunder's&nbsp;statements as a challenge, and I simply welcomed the challenge.

    &nbsp;

    Shimon
     
  18. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hello Shimon,
    Israel is restored back to the land NOT because they are righteous! Read Ezekiel 36 very carefully.

    Ezekiel 36:22 -&nbsp;"Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name’s sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went."

    32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.

    The reason God restored Israel is not because they are righteous! It's because of HIS OWN NAME'S SAKE! When you touch Israel you are touching the Apple of God's eye. Although Israel has been unfaithful, God will remain faithful to his promise.&nbsp;

    Zechariah 2:8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye. This covenant is a never ending, everlasting covenant.

    God is the same YESTERDAY, TODAY and FOREVER.
     
  19. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    This is why God hardened Israel:

    Romans 11:7-8 - "What then? What Israel sought so ernestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, (8)as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so they could not hear, to this very day."

    Romans 11:11 - "Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgretion, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious."

    And this is how and when God will save Israel unto Himself:

    Romans 11:25 - "I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of Gentiles has come in."

    So as we can plainly see, as long as God is still in the business of saving Gentiles, Israel will be temporarily blinded. This is also very good evidence of a pre-trib rapture in my opinion, because God is going to finish His work in the Gentiles before He restores Israel. Glory in the highest to the living God!!!!!!!
     
  20. Shimon

    Shimon Shalom!

    247
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    RollinThunder:

    So far, we seem to be pretty much in agreement.&nbsp; I agree with you that God restores Israel back for His Own Name's sake and not because Israel was righteous.&nbsp; And, of course, Israel *hasn't* yet been restored to the land -- she is still dispersed among the nations.

    Here again we are in agreement.&nbsp; Paul tells us that the hearts were hardened so that salvation would come unto the Gentiles.&nbsp; But notice what else he says:&nbsp; “to make Israel jealous.”

    “Israel” which includes both Jews and Israelites, were to be made jealous by seeing Gentiles observing Torah through a joyful and obedient spirit.&nbsp; They were supposed to see us obeying Torah, with joy and gladness because we’re given a “new heart” through the Holy Spirit who gives us the willingness and power to obey His Torah as it was meant to be obeyed.&nbsp; They were supposed to see the light shining in us and say “I want some of that!”&nbsp; But instead, we declared the Torah to be obsolete and done away with.&nbsp; That doesn’t provoke them to jealousy, it provokes them to disgust.

    I’ve known some Messianic Jews who will tell you that the most jealous and uncomfortable people in the world are Traditional Jews whose children accepted Yeshua as Messiah.&nbsp; Their parents see the light shining forth in their lives, they see them obeying Torah with more joy and gladness than they possess themselves, and they want that same joy.&nbsp; So they start attending their Traditional Jewish synagogue more regularly, searching for that same joy, not realizing that that isn’t where they’re going to find it.

    This is where we disagree.&nbsp; The translation you provided is not an entirely accurate translation.

    God promised Abraham that he would become the father of many nations – literally “a fullness of Goyim:”

    When Jacob blessed his newly adopted sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, he said that Ephraim would become a “multitude of nations – literally a “fullness of Goyim:”

    In both of these verses, the original Hebrew reads “a fullness of Goyim.”&nbsp; That’s exactly what has happened – Ephraim was scattered among the Gentiles and has become a “fullness of Goyim.”

    What Romans 11:25 is saying is that the hardening took place until the “fullness of Goyim” (i.e. "multitude of nations") come in.&nbsp; It is *NOT* saying that “as long as God is still in the business of saving Gentiles, Israel will be temporarily blinded.”

    Shimon
     
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