Mystery Bablyon...

[ladylove]

Originally posted by Pericles
You are a preterist??

Hardly.  The Mods were not directing their posts at me.  Apparently, you do not read my posts carefully, otherwise, you would know where I stand.  It just goes to show why you had to asked the question.

 

[Patmosman_sga]

I think his comment was meant in jest.

 

[ladylove]

Patmo,

I appreciate your efforts, but judging from past history with this poster, it was not. But thank you anyway.

 

[Brian45]

Originally posted by Wildfire
Is it Jerusalem?

Does it fit the description given to us by John:

A city 'that reigns over all the kings of the earth?"

A city, "where merchants are waxed rich by her abundance?"

A city, "that beheld great riches, where merchants would buy gold, silver, pearls, delicte things, silk, ivory, fine linen, sheep, horses, slaves, etc...?"

A city, "that beheld the voice of harpers, and musicians, and pipers?"

A city, "whose merchants were the great men of the earth"

A city, "where those great men were decieved by her sorceries?"

It doesn't fit with todays Jerusalem; Israel is a poor, violent country.

If anything, (and I hate to say it) this passage is describing America.

Wildfire

 

Wildfire , the prophecies you mention are yet to happen , we don't know what changes there will be in the middle east or Jerusalem .

Many eschatoligists believe jerusalem may become an international city under the protection of the UN or Europe in the hope of creating peace in the middle east .

The ramifications of this are mind blowing .        

 

[ladylove]

It truly is the mystery that I yet have to settle in my own mind. Ah, the power and mystery of God!!!

Time will tell as the world events unfold...

 

[Brian45]

Originally posted by ladylove
I just dunno...I understand it is a religious system and obviously an economic one as well that the "World" will come under, but WHAT?

The three largest faiths in the world, Christianity, Judism and Islam. Which one of the three or none? A new religion that becomes powerful and its evil influence so deluding that the "whole" world must subscribe or die? I just dunno. This is the mystery piece of the puzzle for me.

 

Many eschatoligists believe that Babylon is a religious system ,  yet in reading the book of revelations I fail to see this , I don't see a religious system at all  , and I can't figure out why other people do .

Can anyone point me to where in revelations I should believe it is a religious system  .

 

 

[Patmosman_sga]

Originally posted by Brian45
 

Many eschatoligists believe that Babylon is a religious system ,  yet in reading the book of revelations I fail to see this , I don't see a religious system at all  , and I can't figure out why other people do .

Can anyone point me to where in revelations I should believe it is a religious system  .

 

The operative word is "corrupt," not "religious." Babylon is a corrupt system that is opposed to God's purposes, whether that system be religious (eg. Jerusalem), political (eg. Rome) or any perverse combination of both (and there have been any number of those throughout history).

 

[Frank]

Originally posted by Patmosman_sga
The operative word is "corrupt," not "religious." Babylon is a corrupt system that is opposed to God's purposes, whether that system be religious (eg. Jerusalem), political (eg. Rome) or any perverse combination of both (and there have been any number of those throughout history).

Corruption is also described as "Sodom" and "Egypt" in Revelation:

"And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified" Rec. 11:8

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that John was talking about Jerusalem as a city.  Calling the jewish system of worship, and the city itself Sodom, Egypt and Babylon was to call the jews what they hated the most...slavery in Egypt, depravity in Sodom, destruction of the first temple by Babylon and captivity.

 

[Brian45]

Originally posted by Patmosman_sga
The operative word is "corrupt," not "religious." Babylon is a corrupt system that is opposed to God's purposes, whether that system be religious (eg. Jerusalem), political (eg. Rome) or any perverse combination of both (and there have been any number of those throughout history).

 

I believe the Babylon in question is the one yet to appear , not the historical Babylon  .

 

[ladylove]

Brian,

Mystery Bablyon is some type of religious system that the anti-Christ will use initially to gain world wide dominance as evidenced by the idols (Rev. 13:14) that will be made in honor of his astonishing achievements in the world. These idols are always connected in the Bible as false worship and will be used by indwelling demons to maintain worldwide compliance with the anti-christ's demand for personal worship. That is how it relates to a "religious" system and consequently an economic one as well as the mark equates buying and selling power that this sytem will have as evidenced by the immense wealth it will amass. I hope this answers your question.

 

[Frank]

Originally posted by Brian45
 

I believe the Babylon in question is the one yet to appear , not the historical Babylon  .

How do you know that?  There was a Babylon around at the time when Peter wrote his letters, so what makes your position more valid than Peter's?

"She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you greetings, and so does my son, Mark"

It looks to me like Peter was in Babylon at the time when he wrote his first letter...so what Babylon is this?  Why would a Babylon thousands of years later be more relevant to John when he wrote Revelation, than the Babylon that was around at the time of writing the book? 

 

[ladylove]

Frank,

You misunderstand what Peter is saying, he referenced Rome as "Bablyon" so as not to rouse the ire of Roman officials at the time he wrote his epistle. It was a used as a common reference among early Christians at the time for safety reasons. It doesn't sound like you have studied alot of early church history. But now you know.

 

[Frank]

Originally posted by ladylove
Frank,

You misunderstand what Peter is saying, he referenced Rome as "Bablyon" so as not to rouse the ire of Roman officials at the time he wrote his epistle. It was a used as a common reference among early Christians at the time for safety reasons. It doesn't sound like you have studied alot of early church history. But now you know.

So Peter was in Rome when he wrote this letter?  And why is the Babylon in Revelation different than the Babylon in 1 Peter again?

 

[ladylove]

Babylon is a common reference used biblically of false religious worship that draws away from the true worship that God seeks of His people. It has been used throughout since the time of the Jewish exile as that connotation. Therefore, when the Apostle John uses it in Revelation, it refers to the last great attempt at drawing people away from the true worship of God thru Jesus Christ, this is especially true of the Jews. Since it is the Jews who play the starring role in Revelation, not the church.

 

Are you a Christian?  If so, why do you not know these things?

 

 

[Frank]

Originally posted by ladylove
Babylon is a common reference used biblically of false religious worship that draws away from the true worship that God seeks of His people. It has been used throughout since the time of the Jewish exile as that connotation. Therefore, when the Apostle John uses it in Revelation, it refers to the last great attempt at drawing people away from the true worship of God thru Jesus Christ, this is especially true of the Jews. Since it is the Jews who play the starring role in Revelation, not the church.

 

Are you a Christian?  If so, why do you not know these things?

 

So the Babylon in Revelation is not the Babylon that Peter was talking about?  Also, where does the Bible say that Peter was in Rome?

 

[armothe]

The Bible itself never places Peter at "Rome".

However, the early church fathers did share a common belief that Peter had been in Rome at some time.

-A

 

[Frank]

Originally posted by armothe
The Bible itself never places Peter at "Rome".

However, the early church fathers did share a common belief that Peter had been in Rome at some time.

-A

There is no evidence that Peter was ever in Rome...  Peter was an elder in the church in Jerusalem and it is believed that he never even left Palestine

 

[armothe]

Originally posted by Frank
There is no evidence that Peter was ever in Rome...  Peter was an elder in the church in Jerusalem and it is believed that he never even left Palestine

I'm not attesting to evidence...just the fact that it was a widely held belief of the early church fathers.

Clement of Alexandria, Papias, Irenaeus, Origin, Arnobius, Tertullian, Lactantius of Africa, Hegesippus, and even Eusebius hinted at Peter being in Rome.
The myth of Simon Magus vs. Peter in Rome even inspired this 15th century Fresco: http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/art/l/lippi/flippino/brancacc/crucdisp.jpg
(the setting is Rome, but we know that the altercation with Simon Magus happened in Samaria)

-A

 

[Brian45]

Originally posted by ladylove
Brian,

Mystery Bablyon is some type of religious system that the anti-Christ will use initially to gain world wide dominance as evidenced by the idols (Rev. 13:14) that will be made in honor of his astonishing achievements in the world. These idols are always connected in the Bible as false worship and will be used by indwelling demons to maintain worldwide compliance with the anti-christ's demand for personal worship. That is how it relates to a "religious" system and consequently an economic one as well as the mark equates buying and selling power that this sytem will have as evidenced by the immense wealth it will amass. I hope this answers your question.

 

Revelation 13
<SUP>14</SUP>And he deceives those<SUP>[1]</SUP> who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived.


&nbsp;

And what were the signs&nbsp; ?

 

[ladylove]

Well, if you read the verse prior to verse 14 that one of the signs is to make fire come down from heavn to earth in the presence of men.