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Mystery Bablyon...

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by ladylove, Sep 6, 2002.

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  1. ladylove

    ladylove Active Member

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    I think I am comfortable with my view of prophecy EXCEPT for exactly who and what "Mystery Bablyon" is.   I really don't think the false prophet is the Pope (a widely held belief in protestantism), or the RCC.  I know to many wonderful Catholic Christians who are truly spirit-filled.  But then I have also heard it theorized that it is Islam and the economic power that they will have due to the influence of oil over the West.  I just am not sure that I agree with any of it at this point in my study.  Any one out there have any ideas or can convince me that it is the RCC church or Islam?  Give it your best shot...I'm listening and open to discussion. 
     
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  2. armothe

    armothe Living in HIS kingdom...

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    US-Constitution
    I think there is a similar post by Brian45 a few notches down.
    http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21406
    Anyways...

    Compare what Jesus says in Matthew 23:37

    "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you!

    To what John says in Rev 18:21-24

    "So shall Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence, and shall be found no more... 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of ALL who have been slain on earth." 

    Also, lets consider what Jerimiah says in 4:30

    O desolate one [Jerusalem], what will you do? Although you dress in scarlet, Although you decorate [yourself with] ornaments of gold, Although you enlarge your eyes with paint, In vain you make yourself beautiful

    And Ezekiel 16:37

    therefore I am going to gather all your [Israel's] lovers, with whom you found pleasure, those you loved as well as those you hated.
    I will gather them against you from all around and will strip you in front of them, and they will see all your nakedness.

    To Revelation 17:4-16

    17:4
    And the woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality...
    17:16 And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked,
    and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire. 


    I can only conclude that there is a very strong comparison between the Mystery: Babylon and 1st Century Jerusalem.

    -A
     
  3. ladylove

    ladylove Active Member

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    Any one else, please?
     
  4. Patmosman_sga

    Patmosman_sga Member

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    Protestant
    "Mystery Babylon" in Revelation can only be one of two cities: Rome or Jerusalem. Traditionally, Rome has been the favored interpretation. However, a number of recent interpreters have made a very strong case for Jerusalem (see, for example, N.T. Wright, Jesus and the Victory of God).

    Understanding the particular genre of Revelation, "Babylon" does not have to be "either/or," but "both/and." The characteristics of "Mystery Babylon" in Revelation apply, within a strictly first century Jewish context, to Jerusalem. But, from a wider Greco-Roman first century context, they can also apply equally to Rome. From the standpoint of ongoing history, "Babylon" can be seen incarnate in any number of civilizations which once boasted invincibility, only to crash and burn: Napoleon's France, Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union and--soon to join them--the Muslim Middle East.
     
  5. ladylove

    ladylove Active Member

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    Okay, one more time, any one else please?
     
  6. armothe

    armothe Living in HIS kingdom...

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    I've never heard Napoleon's France, Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, and Muslim Middle East called (or even referenced to) Babylon before - especially by an apostle of Christ.

    -A
     
  7. Pericles

    Pericles Christian

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    When Revelation was written, there was no religion of Islam.  Babylon is not a religion or a country...it's clearly and OBVIOUSLY a city, and more exactly, the city of Jerusalem.  It is even called by name by Peter in 1 Peter 5:3

    <SPAN lang=en-us>"She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you greetings, and </SPAN><I><SPAN lang=en-us>so does </SPAN></I><SPAN lang=en-us>my son, </SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us>Mark."</SPAN>

    <SPAN lang=en-us></SPAN>Peter was an elder in the church of Jerusalem, and he is sending greetings on behalf of the church.&nbsp; The christians of the first century called Jerusalem by the name Babylon because of the great wickedness of the first century jews, and because of the heavy persecution by the jews.
     
  8. Wildfire

    Wildfire Member

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    To try and understand who or what Babylon is, let's see what John wrote about this city in the book of Revelation.

    I will shew thee the judgement of the great whore (leader) that sitteth upon many waters. (people/nations of the earth)

    With whom the kings of the earth have commited fornication.

    And the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

    (Notice, the whore is carrying the beast, which may indicate a type of partnership or cooperation)

    And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

    ***********************************************************

    Now, in the vision John watches as babylon is fallen. (ch 18)

    And is become the habitation of devils.
    And the hold of every unclean spirit.
    And the cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

    And the MERCHANTS of the earth are waxed RICH through the abundance of her delicacies.

    *How much she glorified herself.
    *And lived deliciously.
    *For she saith in her heart, I sit a QUEEN, and I am NO WIDOW, and shall see NO SORROW.

    And the MERCHANTS of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise anymore.

    And the MERCHANDISE is listed:

    gold, silver, precious stones, pearls, fine linen, silk, scarlet, vessels of ivory, precious wood, brass, iron, marble, cinnamon, odours, ointments, wine, oil, flour, wheat, beasts, sheep, horses, chariots, slaves and the souls of men.

    And the fruits that thy soul LUSTED AFTER are departed from thee.

    All the things dainty and goodly are departed from thee.

    Thou shall find them no more.

    For in one hour so GREAT RICHES is come to nought.

    And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships and sailors, as many as trade by sea, stood afar off.

    And CRIED when they saw the smoke of her burning.

    Saying, WHAT CITY IS LIKE UINTO THIS GREAT CITY!

    And the merchants of these things (listed above) WHICH WERE MADE RICH BY HER, shall stand afar off for the FEAR OF HER TORMENT, weeping and wailing,

    Alas, alas that great city wherein WERE MADE RICH ALL THAT HAD SHIPS IN THE SEA BY REASON OF HER COSTLINESS! for in one hour she is made desolate.

    God warns, come out of her my people.
    That ye be not the partakers in her sins.
    That ye may not recieve of her plagues.

    And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with VIOLENCE shall that great city, babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

    The voice of harpers. Musicians. Pipers. Trumpeters shall be heard no more at all in thee.
    No craftsman (whatsoever craft he may be) shall be found no more in thee.

    And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee.

    And the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee.

    FOR THE MERCHANTS WERE GREAT MEN OF THE EARTH: FOR BY THEY SORCERIES WERE ALL NATIONS DECIEVED.

    ************************************************************

    Does this bring any one particular place to mind; on this earth, at this very moment?

    Is Babylon yet a future place, or does it exist now, even to us who can read this and perhaps understand?

    Notice how Gods timing of events, differs to us. One hour to us, is a longer period of time to the Father, since we are told that (a thousand years is as one day to the Lord, as one days is as one thousand years)

    (come out of her- God warns! There is still time, but how much?)

    So to determine how long the destruction of Babylon would take, we would have to figure out the math, according to the above example given:

    {24/1000 X x/60 or 24 (hours)/1000 (years) X x/60 (minutes)= 24x60=1440/ 1000=1.44}?


    (rusty on Algebra, is this correct folks? thanks)

    Wildfire
     
  9. ladylove

    ladylove Active Member

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    I just dunno...I understand it is a religious system and obviously an economic one as well that the "World" will come under, but WHAT?

    The three largest faiths in the world, Christianity, Judism and Islam. Which one of the three or none? A new religion that becomes powerful and its evil influence so deluding that the "whole" world must subscribe or die? I just dunno. This is the mystery piece of the puzzle for me. :scratch:
     
  10. Wildfire

    Wildfire Member

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    The woman (or babylon) is sitting UPON the scarlet covered beast, which is full of the names of blasphemy.

    The beast (or satan) has come out of the bottomless pit. He WAS an angel of God, but he is not, yet he IS. (remember the lying signs and wonders?)

    And because of Babylons wealth/riches, the beast is carrying her.

    But not for long.

    The seven heads are seven mountains. (great nations)
    The ten horns are ten kings who recieve limited power with the beast.
    And the ten horns (or smaller kingdoms) shall hate the whore (Babylon) so they shall make her desolate and naked, and burn her with fire.

    Interesting indeed.

    Wildfire
     
  11. Patmosman_sga

    Patmosman_sga Member

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    I meant it only in the sense of typology. As Jerusalem and Rome were to the first century, so these other entities were to other periods of history. If you want to adhere strictly to historical and literal context, then Jerusalem and Rome are the only appropriate candidates. But the spirit of "Babylon" has been incarnate in many civilizations before, during and after the first century.
     
  12. Patmosman_sga

    Patmosman_sga Member

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    That's because you won't accept any explanation that takes seriously the first century historical context involving Jerusalem and Rome.
     
  13. Pericles

    Pericles Christian

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    What actually helps us narrow it down exactly to Jerusalem is the fact that Revelation gives us more details about this "great city".&nbsp; For example, in Revelation 11:8 we read:

    "And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which is mystically (symbolically) called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified".

    It doesn't take a brain surgeon to know the actual name of this city...come one now :)&nbsp; While I do agree with you that it is "probable" that Babylon could be the city of Rome, it is not "possible" because of the other overwhelming evidence that points to Jerusalem.&nbsp; We know that Christ wasn't crucified in Rome...so the only possible option left is Jerusalem.
     
  14. ladylove

    ladylove Active Member

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    You promote heresy from what I know.&nbsp; Therefore, anything you state is suspect and not credible.&nbsp; Especially, when it relates to prophecy.&nbsp; A wolf among sheep and false teaching...the discerning know...

    &nbsp;
     
  15. Patmosman_sga

    Patmosman_sga Member

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    Protestant
    N.T. Wright has said the suggestion "that the great and wicked city is not Rome but Jerusalem" has aroused "anger in some circles." He asks a very pertinent question in light of this all too common reaction: "What is at stake here, and for whom?"

    Indeed, it would be interesting to know precisely why such an interpretation throws so many people (usually dispensationalists) into a hissy fit. Just who--or what--have they really placed their faith in?
     
  16. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    I will post part of an article I wrote that might be helpful. I was dealing with the rapture theroy.
     
  17. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    Surely Revelation teaches the rapture theory right?


    Answer: NO. Revelation is a very interesting book, full of apocalyptic and symbolic language. There are probably more books written on Revelation than any other book in the bible. One of the first things we have to determine is when Revelation was written. The two most popular views is that it was written around 68AD or 96AD. If Revelation was written in 68AD, you will hold the view that the book is written about the destruction of Jerusalem. On the other hand if you think it was written in 96AD, you would hold the view that the book was written about the fall of the Roman Empire. In either case, almost everything in Revelation has already taken place. Revelation can be a very deep study. We are just going to scratch the surface in this study. I intend to show two things: 1. Revelation is written to the Christians warning them about the destruction of Jerusalem. 2. I will show that Rev. 20,which is a popular chapter used to try and prove the rapture theory, doesn’t teach the rapture theory at all.

    It is very important when you study Revelation that you use the rest of the bible to interpret it. People love to take parts of the symbolic language used in Revelation and make it literal and then in the same paragraph turn around and make symbolic again. They do this to so they can try a make their theory work. I believe that the Christians back then didn’t have any problems understanding the symbolic language found in Rev. The most important thing you should know about Rev. is that Christ will be victorious in the end.



    Revelation is written to the Christians warning them about the destruction of Jerusalem.



    Rev.1:1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place.

    Rev.22:6Then he said to me, “These words are faithful and true.” And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place.



    You will notice in the very first verse and in the last chapter it states that all the things that John is fixing to talk about is going to take place shortly. Surely we can safely say that shortly means that the things written in Rev. would happen very soon.



    Rev1:3Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.



    Here is another timed statement. The verse tells us that the time is near. Now compare this verse with what we read in Matt 24:



    33“So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! 34“Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.



    We know from this verse that near was at least limited to a generation. This is one reason that I believe the book was written in 68AD. In order for Rev. to be referring to the fall of the Roman Empire, it would require “shortly” and “near” to mean almost 400 years.



    Rev1:9I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ



    Notice that he was in tribulation, just like Matt 24:9 states. 9“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. Just as a side note did you also see that John says the he is in the kingdom. This is another good verse to show that the kingdom was already established.



    Rev6:9When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.



    Here we have these saints that have been killed and they want to know how long it will be before Jesus will avenge their spilled blood. Now notice they are told to rest a little while longer. This tells me that it won’t be much longer before he does avenge their deaths. The rest of this study will mainly be showing who killed these servants. I intend to show that Jerusalem is the one responsible for these deaths. Lets examine the following verses.



    Matthew 23:29“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30“and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’ 31“Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32“Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. 33“Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34“Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35“that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36“Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

    37“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38“See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39“for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”



    You should probably read all of Matt. 23. In this chapter Jesus is really coming down hard on the Pharisees and scribes. I think this section of scripture plainly states that not only did their fathers kill the righteous, but they to were going to kill the righteous. Jesus tells them that they are going to pay for all the righteous blood they have shed from Able to Zechariah. We have another time frame mentioned in verse 36. Jesus is going to avenge all those righteous people within their generation. Verse 37 tells us that Jerusalem is the one who kills the profits and the Christians that are sent to her. I believe that this establishes that Jerusalem is the city that is responsible for the death of saints.



    Luke 13:33“Nevertheless I must journey today, tomorrow, and the day following; for it cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem.



    Here Jesus tells once again that the prophets are killed in Jerusalem and not outside of Jerusalem.



    Rev.16:4Then the third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood. 5And I heard the angel of the waters saying:

    “You are righteous, O Lord,

    The One who is and who was and who is to be,

    Because You have judged these things.

    6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets,

    And You have given them blood to drink.

    For it is their just due.”

    7And I heard another from the altar saying, “Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments.”



    In this chapter, the angles are pouring out the bowls of the wrath of God. Verse 6 tells us who these bowls of wrath are being poured on. We see that it is Jerusalem, because we have already established that they shed the blood of the saints and prophets.



    Rev.18:20“Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you holy apostles and prophets, for God has avenged you on her!”

    21Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “Thus with violence the great city Babylon shall be thrown down, and shall not be found anymore. 22“The sound of harpists, musicians, flutists, and trumpeters shall not be heard in you anymore. No craftsman of any craft shall be found in you anymore, and the sound of a millstone shall not be heard in you anymore. 23“The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived. 24“And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.”



    Here Jerusalem is being called the great city Babylon. We know this because of verse 24. It says that blood of the prophets and saints were found in this great city Babylon. We know that this has to be talking about Jerusalem. In verse 21 it states that this city, when it is destroyed wont be found again. This is so true, because we still don’t know for sure where Jerusalem was located for sure. The Roman Empire did a very good job of wiping their cities existence from the face of the earth.



    Rev.11:1Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2“But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. 3“And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. 5And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. 6These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.

    7When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. 8And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.



    The first part of this verse is talking about measuring the temple of God, which is referring to the temple in Jerusalem. The Gentiles were not allowed to enter the temple inner courtyard. They had to worship on the outside of the temple. This is one reason why I know this is passage is talking about the temple in Jerusalem. I want you to pay close attention to verse 8. It states that these two witnesses dead bodies would lie in the street of the great city spiritually called Sodom and Egypt. We know that this is talking about Jerusalem by reading the last words of the verse. It says, that Jesus was crucified there and we all know that Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem. This is one of the main reasons I think that the book of Rev. is written about the destruction of Jerusalem and not the fall of the Roman Empire. You see the Roman Empire did not fall until around 476AD. We know that the Roman Empire destroyed Jerusalem in 70AD. We have to conclude that this great city that was spiritually called Sodom and Egypt has to be Jerusalem, because that’s where Jesus was crucified. It would be very difficult for these two witnesses to be laying in the street of Jerusalem when there wasn’t much left after 70AD. The Romans were represented by Pilate in Jerusalem. The Jews brought Jesus to be tried by him, but he wouldn’t have anything to do with it. The Jews were the ones who wanted Jesus to be crucified and they even went as far as to say they would be responsible for his blood being shed. Read the following passage.



    Matthew 27:22Pilate said to them, “What then shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?” They all said to him, “Let Him be crucified!” 23Then the governor said, “Why, what evil has He done?” But they cried out all the more, saying, “Let Him be crucified!” 24When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, “I am innocent of the blood of this just Person. You see to it.” 25And all the people answered and said, “His blood be on us and on our children.”



    The Romans allowed it to happen, but when you get right down to it, it was the Jews that crucified Jesus.



    We just barley scratched the surface of Rev., but I hope that you have been able to see that Rev. was written as warning of things that were going to be happening to them back then and not some future event. I believe that I presented strong evidence that Rev is written about the destruction of Jerusalem and not the fall of the Roman Empire. We have one last thing that we are going to briefly look at.



    Revelation 20


    Here another popular chapter that the rapture teaching people like to use.



    Rev. 20:1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

    4And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.



    The rapture teacher would have you believe that this teaches the 1000-year reign of Christ on the earth. I want you to notice who it says will reign with Christ for a 1000 years. It says the beheaded will reign with him. That leaves out the righteouses that are living on the earth right now. The only way they can justify this is to say that the beheaded symbolically represent all the righteous and in the same sentence make the 1000 years literal. This is another great example of how you can make Rev. teach just about anything if make one part of a verse literal and another part symbolic. You will not find Jerusalem mentioned anywhere in chapter 20. The whole idea for this 1000 year reign is centered on Jesus reigning in Jerusalem. You won’t find the second coming mentioned in the chapter either. Nor will you find Jesus being on the earth. Rev. 20 simply doesn’t teach the rapture theory.
     
  18. Patmosman_sga

    Patmosman_sga Member

    375
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    Protestant
    Then you obviously don't know much. Your position can be summed up in that old cliche: "My mind's made up. Don't confuse me with the facts."

    Yet, you invite further confusion by soliciting responses to your question which do not take historical context seriously and reject a priori any responses which do.
     
  19. Wildfire

    Wildfire Member

    454
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    Is it Jerusalem?

    Does it fit the description given to us by John:

    A city 'that reigns over all the kings of the earth?"

    A city, "where merchants are waxed rich by her abundance?"

    A city, "that beheld great riches, where merchants would buy gold, silver, pearls, delicte things, silk, ivory, fine linen, sheep, horses, slaves, etc...?"

    A city, "that beheld the voice of harpers, and musicians, and pipers?"

    A city, "whose merchants were the great men of the earth"

    A city, "where those great men were decieved by her sorceries?"

    It doesn't fit with todays Jerusalem; Israel is a poor, violent country.

    If anything, (and I hate to say it) this passage is describing America.

    Wildfire
     
  20. Patmosman_sga

    Patmosman_sga Member

    375
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    Protestant
    Good insights. I would only add that Revelation provides the model for the liturgy the Church has followed for 2,000 years. Thus, it continues to come to life in our midst every time we gather for worship.
     
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