My questions

[Goodbook]

The lady flatmate would yell at her children and then confide in me she wished she never had them :-(

 

[Goodbook]

They were great children though when i was livng with them but obviously will have to make their own way in life since their parents dont care to stay together or love each other.

Another friend i know, her mum and dad argued all the time. They didnt love each other. Her brother died in a hit and run. Shes making her own way in life as her dads got dementia and her mums run off with a lover.

 

[Goodbook]

Our Father God does not do this to his own children he helps us, gives us everything and disciplines us for our good. He doesnt ever abandon us even when we go through trials.

 

[All4Christ]

Unfortunatley the curse of the bastard is real. Because parents who unwed and fornicate their sin does actually mark the children. Thats why in the bible to refrain from fornication you marry first.

Its not other people judging its the fact that the children are conceived in sin and lust, not love, and often are unwanted. If one parent is saved the the children can be made clean and holy and ideally both parents should be saved to raise godly children.

jesus loved all children thats why he will adopt those whos parents are unsaved because they have more problems than those from saved parents. When children sense they are unwanted and rejected often they will rebel.

Calling them illegitimate and especially b*stard is perpetuating the problem. Unfortunately people do judge them and often define them by that. Don't call them since you know that Jesus loves them all. He never condemned the children for the sins of their parents. While they may suffer some consequences, it doesn't mean that we have to treat them a certain way or call them a certain name.

 

[Dave-W]

Because she married a cheating man? Is this to punish her for making a stupid decision?

What about the man that marries a cheating wife. Same thing? Wait till the cheating wife dies? I dont think that happens. Thats why ppl divorce, so they can be free to marry other ppl.

I understand that. But many Christians (catholic, orthodox and most evangelicals) sincerely believe that no civil divorce can end a marriage. Ever. So the person that wants to continue to follow the Lord are forced into lifelong celibacy whether they have that charismatic gift or not. Otherwise, if they get married they are committing adultery.

 

[Dave-W]

For christians that marry each other, and if one cheats youd think the offending party would repent and the other forgive.

that is what SHOULD happen, but sometimes the emotional and covenantal injury is so great that forgiveness can take years.

And - forgiveness is NOT the same thing as restoration.

 

[Dave-W]

There are no illegitimate children.

That is unbiblical. Illegitimate children are specifically called out in the OT.

Deuteronomy 23:2 No one of illegitimate birth shall enter the assembly of the Lord; none of his descendants, even to the tenth generation, shall enter the assembly of the Lord.

Hebrews 12:8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

 

[Dave-W]

Calling them illegitimate and especially b*stard is perpetuating the problem. Unfortunately people do judge them and often define them by that. Don't call them since you know that Jesus loves them all. He never condemned the children for the sins of their parents. While they may suffer some consequences, it doesn't mean that we have to treat them a certain way or call them a certain name.

Sounds like so much "PC" garbage to me. "Don't call them names because it may make them feel bad."
Boo hoo.

 

[Dave-W]

By no means should they bear a mark upon them because their parents did not marry before having the child.

Then why did God say what He did in Deut 23.2? "Cannot enter the assembly of the Lord for 10 generations."

 

[All4Christ]

Sounds like so much "PC" garbage to me. "Don't call them names because it may make them feel bad."
Boo hoo.

Believe me, I don't fall under the politically correct category (though I do try to be considerate). That said, I have family members (adopted) who were children of unwed parents. Yes, they were impacted by Christians treating them like they were worth less than others because they were "illegitimate". Names do effect people as they single people out for that.

My cousin was a daughter of a liaison with her father and an alcoholic who was not married to him. She was raped by her father and was treated horribly by her mother. Yet Christians treated her like she was a worse person because of that. Can you really justify anything that might contribute to that behavior? Words do have an impact, and the children do not bear the responsibility. As Christians, we are called to love all, especially children. Jesus himself said that children do not bear the sin of the parents. Would you disagree?

 

[All4Christ]

That is unbiblical. Illegitimate children are specifically called out in the OT.

Deuteronomy 23:2 No one of illegitimate birth shall enter the assembly of the Lord; none of his descendants, even to the tenth generation, shall enter the assembly of the Lord.

Hebrews 12:8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

Are you aware of the cultural understanding of illegitimate birth in the Old Testament? (EDITED: Mamzer - Wikipedia) They couldn't enter the Covenant between God and Israel (Assembly of the Lord). That's not the same thing we are discussing.

Likewise, the second verse is referring to those who aren't really following God. The Lord chastens and corrects every child of God.

We are called to be children of God first and foremost. We are not saved because of what we were at birth, but rather what we are in Christ.

With that said, what purpose does it serve for us to identify children as "illegitimate"?

 

[Dave-W]

As Christians, we are called to love all, especially children. Jesus himself said that children do not bear the sin of the parents. Would you disagree?

What I know is that God makes a special case of illegitimate (Heb momzer) in scripture. I also know that when a covenant is updated/renewed/replaced, anything not specifically adjusted or superseded in the new is carried over as-is from the old. Since Deut 23.2 is not specifically addressed in the New Covenant; I have to take it that it is still in force. And that affects me personally because at about age 40, my mom told me that I was the product of a date rape.

I had always wondered why I could never get a straight answer on the wedding date of my parents from either of them.

 

[Dave-W]

Are you aware of the cultural understanding of illegitimate birth in the Old Testament? It was anyone whose mother was not Jewish.

Not so. It was a product of someone who "played the harlot," i.e. a loose morals Jewish girl.

Jesus Himself was accused of being a momzer. (John 8) How was Mary NOT Jewish?

 

[All4Christ]

What I know is that God makes a special case of illegitimate (Heb momzer) in scripture. I also know that when a covenant is updated/renewed/replaced, anything not specifically adjusted or superseded in the new is carried over as-is from the old. Since Deut 23.2 is not specifically addressed in the New Covenant; I have to take it that it is still in force. And that affects me personally because at about age 40, my mom told me that I was the product of a date rape.

I had always wondered why I could never get a straight answer on the wedding date of my parents from either of them.

Do you believe you cannot enter a covenant with God - the Assembly of God? Do you believe up through ten generations from now, your descendents cannot enter the Assembly of God?

Mamzer isn't strictly equivalent with the English usage of illegitimate. If your mother was not married at the time of her rape, then you (Biblically) would not be considered to be a mamzer. Mamzer - Wikipedia

 

[All4Christ]

Not so. It was a product of someone who "played the harlot," i.e. a loose morals Jewish girl.

Jesus Himself was accused of being a momzer. (John 8) How was Mary NOT Jewish?

I spoke incorrectly on that, but I maintain that mamzer doesn't mean the same as the English term illegitimate child. A child of an adultery was considered to be mamzer. That said, I still have my same question. Do you believe you can't be Christian because of your parentage? I believe that was superseded in the New Testament, in particular where Jesus says a child is not responsible for the sins of his parents (remember the blind man, who was said to be punished by blindness because of his parents' sins).

 

[All4Christ]

Then why did God say what He did in Deut 23.2? "Cannot enter the assembly of the Lord for 10 generations."

What about Ezekiel 18 and Jeremiah 31? It seems that Deuteronomy 23 addresses the covenant with Israel while Ezekiel 18 and Jeremiah 31 are referencing sin and whether it is or is not transferred to children. Jeremiah 31 even says that it is a new covenant where the saying ‘The parents eat sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge’ is no longer true.

So my question remains: What do you consider to be the modern day application of not being able to enter the assembly of the Lord for 10 generations? Is it saying that the children bear the sins of their parents? Or is it for that specific place and time, considering the other passages listed?

 

[Dave-W]

Mamzer isn't strictly equivalent with the English usage of illegitimate. If your mother was not married at the time of her rape, then you (Biblically) would not be considered to be a mamzer. Mamzer - Wikipedia

That is a more modern understanding of the word, NOT how it was used in the first century and before.

 

[Dave-W]

So my question remains: What do you consider to be the modern day application of not being able to enter the assembly of the Lord for 10 generations?

I am not sure how that works under the New Covenant.

I do know that if I understood that 20 some years earlier I would not have married or had offspring.

 

[Dave-W]

A child of an adultery was considered to be mamzer.

So I am a momzer by your definition.
My dad was still married to his first wife at the time of the incident. (my mom did not know he had been married before)

That said, I still have my same question. Do you believe you can't be Christian because of your parentage? I believe that was superseded in the New Testament,

I guess that boils down to what you mean by "Christian."

Since there is no specific language superseding this specific statement, I do not see it as superseded.

 

[All4Christ]

So I am a momzer by your definition.
My dad was still married to his first wife at the time of the incident. (my mom did not know he had been married before)


I guess that boils down to what you mean by "Christian."

Since there is no specific language superseding this specific statement, I do not see it as superseded.

Ok. Based on the Old Covenant understanding and the modern understanding of Judaism, you could fall under that. That said, many Biblical scholars definitions of mamzer and modern day definition don't cover the modern day definition of illegitimate. Do you have evidence otherwise for the Old Testament definition?

It also doesn't cover additional scripture that I believe superseded that. I believe it is prophesied that it would be superseded even in the Old Testament based on the other scripture passages I listed. Scripture says that God desires the salvation of us all. Ezekiel says there will be a new covenant where children do not bear the sin of their parents. Jesus said that the disability of the blind man was not due to sin of the parents. Paul said the image of our humanity is restored to the image of God when we are regenerated through second birth. There is a vast amount of scripture supporting this no longer being the case. While it is not a word for word refutation, it certainly is refuted.

ETA: If Jesus forgives adulterers who repent, how much more so will he forgive the children of adulterers?