My Journey to Universalism

[Der Alte]

...

Nor am I.
Hateful, forsooth! And racist as well, maybe?
Stipulated. And I believe if you'll look again, you'll find that I acknowledsge it Nope, I'm not a "really meaner". Our Lord said what He said.
Brace yourself for this, because I'm sure you'll recoil in horror at the very thought; He meant what He said. No "what He really meant" there, which may have served to confuse you. He said it because it's true, they no longer exist in the universe He created; they don't, they never did, they never will. Poof, gone. No word games there, no what He really meant, no "interpretation", no doublespeak. They never were, and as such they can't be remembered.
Very simple, really. For instance, do you remember the infamous trigonaschlockter? No? Perhaps because it never existed. Whether it was good or evil is of no importance, because it never was. If, in theory it had existed, and it offended God, then God could have snipped it out of the timeline, and therefore it would never have existed at all.
I know, that probably falls under your list of thing that "God Can't". but I think that list is bogus. God can; it's His creation, all of it. If He edits someone out of the cosmic org chart, then they never existed, end of.
Is that hateful? Maybe if you set a lot of store by the idea of store by ECT. I don't, because I see more Biblical evidence against it than for it. (This is where you whang the macro key about what the Jews thought, Dante's Inferno, and the EOC). Your lot have to redefine what the Bible says every sentence or so to make it look like God is the merciless fiend you preach, but I ain't buying that. Y'all disregard what our Lord Himself actually said about His Body and Blood (do I keep going back to that? You betcher boots I do, it's Exhibit A of how your bunch decides what your doctrine is and then hammers the Word to fit it.) I'd say you people are the hateful ones. You'll cheer when I'm chucked into the Eternal Furnace that you believe God has provided, but if I'm right I'll never know the lost ever existed, because they didn't. (And if the Unis are right, I'm still get to "neener neener" you.)

Evidently you do want to play games. Nothing of import here but a bombastic tirade. Here is the relevant section of the 4 page definition of ginosko from BDAG Greek Lexicon, translated "knew" in Matt 7:23 "I never knew you."

γινώσκω (in the form γιγνώσκω [s. below] since Homer; γιν. in Attic ins in Meisterhans3-Schw. index, from 325 b.c.; in pap fr. 277 b.c. [Mayser 165]; likew. LXX, pseudepigr., Philo, Joseph., apolog.) impf. ἐγίνωσκον; fut. γνώσομαι; 2 aor. ἔγνων, impv. γνῶθι, γνώτω, subj. 1 sg. γνῶ and 3 sg. γνῶ (γνοῖ Mk 5:43; 9:30; Lk 19:15; Hm 4, 1, 5; B-D-F §95, 2; W-S. §13, 22; Mlt-H. 83; Rob. 1214); 2 sg. γνώσῃς (TestAbr A 8 p. 86, 5 [Stone p. 20]); opt. 1 sg. γνῴην; 3 sg. γνοίη Job 23:3, 5; inf. γνῶναι, ptc. γνούς; pf. ἔγνωκα, 3 pl. ἔγνωκαν J 17:7 (W-S. §13, 15 n. 15); plpf. ἐγνώκειν. Pass.: 1 fut. γνωσθήσομαι; 1 aor. ἐγνώσθην; pf. ἔγνωσμαι. (On the spellings γινώσκειν and γιγνώσκειν s. W-S. §5, 31; B-D-F §34, 4; Mlt-H. 108.) This verb is variously nuanced in contexts relating to familiarity acquired through experience or association with pers. or thing.
* * *
⑦ to indicate that one does know, acknowledge, recognize as that which one is or claims to be τινά (Plut., Ages. 597 [3, 1]; Jos., Ant. 5, 112) οὐδέποτε ἔγνων ὑμᾶς I have never recognized you Mt 7:23; cp. J 1:10. ἐὰν γνωσθῇ πλέον τ. ἐπισκόπου if he receives more recognition than the supervisor (bishop) IPol 5:2. Of God as subject recognize someone as belonging to God, choose, almost=elect (Am 3:2; Hos 12:1; SibOr 5, 330) 1 Cor 8:3; Gal 4:9. In these pass. the γ. of God directed toward human beings is conceived of as the basis of and condition for their coming to know God; cp. the language of the Pythagoreans in HSchenkl, Wiener Studien 8, 1886 p. 265, no. 9 βούλει γνωσθῆναι θεοῖς· ἀγνοήθητι μάλιστα ἀνθρώποις; p. 277 no. 92 σοφὸς ἄνθρωπος κ. θεὸν σεβόμενος γινώσκεται ὑπὸ τ. θεοῦ; Porphyr., ad Marcellam 13 σοφὸς ἄνθρωπος γινώσκεται ὑπὸ θεοῦ; Herm. Wr. 1, 31 θεός, ὃς γνωσθῆναι βούλεται καὶ γινώσκεται τοῖς ἰδίοις; 10, 15 οὐ γὰρ ἀγνοεῖ τὸν ἄνθρωπον ὁ θεός, ἀλλὰ καὶ πάνυ γνωρίζει καὶ θέλει γνωρίζεσθαι. S. Rtzst., Mysterienrel.3 299f; Ltzm. on 1 Cor 8:3; RAC XI 446–659.—On the whole word: BSnell, D. Ausdrücke für die Begriffe des Wissens in d. vorplatonischen Philosophie 1924; EBaumann, ידע u. seine Derivate: ZAW 28, 1908, 22ff; 110ff; WBousset, Gnosis: Pauly-W. VII 1912, 1503ff; Rtzst., Mysterienrel.3 66–70; 284–308; PThomson, ‘Know’ in the NT: Exp. 9th ser. III, 1925, 379–82; AFridrichsen, Gnosis (Paul): ELehmann Festschr. 1927, 85–109; RPope, Faith and Knowledge in Pauline and Johannine Thought: ET 41, 1930, 421–27; RBultmann, TW I ’33, 688–715; HJonas, Gnosis u. spätantiker Geist I ’34; 2’55; EPrucker, Gnosis Theou ’37; JDupont, La Connaissance religieuse dans les Épîtres de Saint Paul, ’49; LBouyer, Gnosis: Le Sens orthodoxe de l’expression jusqu’aux pères Alexandrins: JTS n.s. 4, ’53, 188–203; WDavies, Knowledge in the Dead Sea Scrolls and Mt 11:25–30: HTR 46, ’53, 113–39; WSchmithals, D. Gnosis in Kor. ’55, 3’69; MMagnusson, Der Begriff ‘Verstehen’ (esp. in Paul), ’55; RCasey, Gnosis, Gnosticism and the NT: CDodd Festschr., ’56, 52–80; IdelaPotterie, οἶδα et γινώσκω (4th Gosp.), Biblica 40, ’59, 709–25; H-JSchoeps, Urgemeinde, Judenchristentum, Gnosis ’56; EKäsemann, Das Wandernde Gottesvolk (Hb)2, ’57; HJonas, The Gnostic Religion, ’58; JDupont, Gnosis, ’60; UWilckens, Weisheit u. Torheit (1 Cor 1 and 2) ’59; DGeorgi, Die Gegner des Pls im 2 Cor, ’64; DScholer, Nag Hammadi Bibliography, 1948–69, ’71.—B. 1209f. DELG s.v. γιγνώσκω. EDNT. M-M. TW. Sv.[1]

[1] William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 199–201.​

 

[BNR32FAN]

Nor am I.
Hateful, forsooth! And racist as well, maybe?
Stipulated. And I believe if you'll look again, you'll find that I acknowledsge it
Nope, I'm not a "really meaner". Our Lord said what He said.
Brace yourself for this, because I'm sure you'll recoil in horror at the very thought; He meant what He said. No "what He really meant" there, which may have served to confuse you. He said it because it's true, they no longer exist in the universe He created; they don't, they never did, they never will. Poof, gone. No word games there, no what He really meant, no "interpretation", no doublespeak. They never were, and as such they can't be remembered.

Very simple, really. For instance, do you remember the infamous trigonaschlockter? No? Perhaps because it never existed. Whether it was good or evil is of no importance, because it never was. If, in theory it had existed, and it offended God, then God could have snipped it out of the timeline, and therefore it would never have existed at all.

I know, that probably falls under your list of thing that "God Can't". but I think that list is bogus. God can; it's His creation, all of it. If He edits someone out of the cosmic org chart, then they never existed, end of.

Is that hateful? Maybe if you set a lot of store by the idea of store by ECT. I don't, because I see more Biblical evidence against it than for it. (This is where you whang the macro key about what the Jews thought, Dante's Inferno, and the EOC). Your lot have to redefine what the Bible says every sentence or so to make it look like God is the merciless fiend you preach, but I ain't buying that. Y'all disregard what our Lord Himself actually said about His Body and Blood (do I keep going back to that? You betcher boots I do, it's Exhibit A of how your bunch decides what your doctrine is and then hammers the Word to fit it.) I'd say you people are the hateful ones. You'll cheer when I'm chucked into the Eternal Furnace that you believe God has provided, but if I'm right I'll never know the lost ever existed, because they didn't. (And if the Unis are right, I'm still get to "neener neener" you.)

So Jesus will say to those who never existed “I never knew you”? That’s your explanation? Why would Jesus say anything at all to people who never existed, and what scriptural evidence can you provide to support this wild assumption? Furthermore how does anyone say anything to someone who never existed? They would be talking to nobody. That’s the most ridiculous theory I’ve ever heard of. And you said my explanation was amateur when I even backed it up with another example from scripture. So what about Matthew 1:25 did Joseph not know Mary until after Jesus was born?

 

[BNR32FAN]

As in sexual relations? Hmmmm...

AKA intimate relations like I said earlier.

 

[Jipsah]

Evidently you do want to play games. Nothing of import here but a bombastic tirade. Here is the relevant section of the 4 page definition of ginosko from BDAG Greek Lexicon, translated "knew" in Matt 7:23 "I never knew you."

γινώσκω (in the form γιγνώσκω [s. below] since Homer; γιν. in Attic ins in Meisterhans3-Schw. index, from 325 b.c.; in pap fr. 277 b.c. [Mayser 165]; likew. LXX, pseudepigr., Philo, Joseph., apolog.) impf. ἐγίνωσκον; fut. γνώσομαι; 2 aor. ἔγνων, impv. γνῶθι, γνώτω, subj. 1 sg. γνῶ and 3 sg. γνῶ (γνοῖ Mk 5:43; 9:30; Lk 19:15; Hm 4, 1, 5; B-D-F §95, 2; W-S. §13, 22; Mlt-H. 83; Rob. 1214); 2 sg. γνώσῃς (TestAbr A 8 p. 86, 5 [Stone p. 20]); opt. 1 sg. γνῴην; 3 sg. γνοίη Job 23:3, 5; inf. γνῶναι, ptc. γνούς; pf. ἔγνωκα, 3 pl. ἔγνωκαν J 17:7 (W-S. §13, 15 n. 15); plpf. ἐγνώκειν. Pass.: 1 fut. γνωσθήσομαι; 1 aor. ἐγνώσθην; pf. ἔγνωσμαι. (On the spellings γινώσκειν and γιγνώσκειν s. W-S. §5, 31; B-D-F §34, 4; Mlt-H. 108.) This verb is variously nuanced in contexts relating to familiarity acquired through experience or association with pers. or thing.
* * *
⑦ to indicate that one does know, acknowledge, recognize as that which one is or claims to be τινά (Plut., Ages. 597 [3, 1]; Jos., Ant. 5, 112) οὐδέποτε ἔγνων ὑμᾶς I have never recognized you Mt 7:23; cp. J 1:10. ἐὰν γνωσθῇ πλέον τ. ἐπισκόπου if he receives more recognition than the supervisor (bishop) IPol 5:2. Of God as subject recognize someone as belonging to God, choose, almost=elect (Am 3:2; Hos 12:1; SibOr 5, 330) 1 Cor 8:3; Gal 4:9. In these pass. the γ. of God directed toward human beings is conceived of as the basis of and condition for their coming to know God; cp. the language of the Pythagoreans in HSchenkl, Wiener Studien 8, 1886 p. 265, no. 9 βούλει γνωσθῆναι θεοῖς· ἀγνοήθητι μάλιστα ἀνθρώποις; p. 277 no. 92 σοφὸς ἄνθρωπος κ. θεὸν σεβόμενος γινώσκεται ὑπὸ τ. θεοῦ; Porphyr., ad Marcellam 13 σοφὸς ἄνθρωπος γινώσκεται ὑπὸ θεοῦ; Herm. Wr. 1, 31 θεός, ὃς γνωσθῆναι βούλεται καὶ γινώσκεται τοῖς ἰδίοις; 10, 15 οὐ γὰρ ἀγνοεῖ τὸν ἄνθρωπον ὁ θεός, ἀλλὰ καὶ πάνυ γνωρίζει καὶ θέλει γνωρίζεσθαι. S. Rtzst., Mysterienrel.3 299f; Ltzm. on 1 Cor 8:3; RAC XI 446–659.—On the whole word: BSnell, D. Ausdrücke für die Begriffe des Wissens in d. vorplatonischen Philosophie 1924; EBaumann, ידע u. seine Derivate: ZAW 28, 1908, 22ff; 110ff; WBousset, Gnosis: Pauly-W. VII 1912, 1503ff; Rtzst., Mysterienrel.3 66–70; 284–308; PThomson, ‘Know’ in the NT: Exp. 9th ser. III, 1925, 379–82; AFridrichsen, Gnosis (Paul): ELehmann Festschr. 1927, 85–109; RPope, Faith and Knowledge in Pauline and Johannine Thought: ET 41, 1930, 421–27; RBultmann, TW I ’33, 688–715; HJonas, Gnosis u. spätantiker Geist I ’34; 2’55; EPrucker, Gnosis Theou ’37; JDupont, La Connaissance religieuse dans les Épîtres de Saint Paul, ’49; LBouyer, Gnosis: Le Sens orthodoxe de l’expression jusqu’aux pères Alexandrins: JTS n.s. 4, ’53, 188–203; WDavies, Knowledge in the Dead Sea Scrolls and Mt 11:25–30: HTR 46, ’53, 113–39; WSchmithals, D. Gnosis in Kor. ’55, 3’69; MMagnusson, Der Begriff ‘Verstehen’ (esp. in Paul), ’55; RCasey, Gnosis, Gnosticism and the NT: CDodd Festschr., ’56, 52–80; IdelaPotterie, οἶδα et γινώσκω (4th Gosp.), Biblica 40, ’59, 709–25; H-JSchoeps, Urgemeinde, Judenchristentum, Gnosis ’56; EKäsemann, Das Wandernde Gottesvolk (Hb)2, ’57; HJonas, The Gnostic Religion, ’58; JDupont, Gnosis, ’60; UWilckens, Weisheit u. Torheit (1 Cor 1 and 2) ’59; DGeorgi, Die Gegner des Pls im 2 Cor, ’64; DScholer, Nag Hammadi Bibliography, 1948–69, ’71.—B. 1209f. DELG s.v. γιγνώσκω. EDNT. M-M. TW. Sv.[1]

[1] William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 199–201.​

Impressive. So in the end what does “know” “really mean”? Be sure to save all that to a macro key, too. You don’t want to have to type all that in for every post.

 

[Der Alte]

...

Impressive. So in the end what does “know” “really mean”?

I assumed that you could read and comprehend English.

⑦ to indicate that one does know, acknowledge, recognize as that which one is or claims to be τινά (Plut., Ages. 597 [3, 1]; Jos., Ant. 5, 112) οὐδέποτε ἔγνων ὑμᾶς I have never recognized you Mt 7:23; cp. J 1:10. ἐὰν γνωσθῇ πλέον τ. ἐπισκόπου if he receives more recognition than the supervisor (bishop) ​

The blue highlights indicate the sources the scholars consulted in determining the correct meaning. Some badly informed folks think the scholars were biased and just made-up meanings to support their biases. But such publications are peer reviewed it would be very difficult to slip such errors past the reviewers.

 

[FineLinen]

Obviously intended to be taken into consideration with the rest of scripture my friend.

Obviously!
The declarations of Yah in both testaments are a complete picture of His purposes in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Every knee bowing in union within His Name in worship.

 

[Der Alte]

...

Obviously!
The declarations of Yah in both testaments are a complete picture of His purposes in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Every knee bowing in union within His Name in worship.

"Every knee shall bow" occurs 3 times in the Bible. The word "worship" does not occur in any of the 3 vss.

Isa_45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Rom_14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Php_2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth.​

Many of those bowing knees will be when Jesus makes His enemies His footstool. It must be really important it is repeated 7 times in the Bible. And I'm sure those conquered enemies will not get up filled with warm fuzzies for Jesus.

Psalms 110:1
(1) A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Matthew 22:44
(44) The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Mark 12:36
(36) For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Luke 20:42-43
(42) And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
(43) Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Acts 2:34-35
(34) For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
(35) Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Hebrews 1:13
(13) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Hebrews 10:12-13
(12) But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
(13) From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.​

 

[FineLinen]

Then everyone who says to Christ Lord Lord will enter Heaven? Matthew 7:21-23

Believing into the Name of Jesus is the royal road that carries us by stages of glory into union within Him.

Discipleship in the Master is one of despising your own life!

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

As with most, perhaps all UR-ites, why have you deliberately altered 1 Cor 15:22 to make it say something it does NOT say?

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. ​

All men are inherently "in Adam" because they are physical descendants of Adam. They do not become "in Adam" when they die.
1 Cor 15:22 does NOT say "All will be made alive in Christ," "all men " are NOT in Christ, that requires a conscious choice by every person, while they are alive. Just as all men are not made "in Adam" by death. All men are NOT made alive in Christ at death.

amen

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Also, I've begun to reflect on how fate led me to this particular forum. It's interesting. I would originally only post on the Tentmaker site. That's one of the first places I began researching Universalism years ago. But suddenly one day, the forum shut down. Even to this day it's still not back up. Because of that, I began searching for other forums to post about Universalism, which is how I ended up here.

Of course, it's bad that the Tentmaker site forum is closed at the moment. There's a lot of useful information on there. It makes me glad I was able to partially back up the HTML with HTTrack Website Copier. But at the same time, maybe it was God's way of getting me out of my comfort zone. After all, there are still people out there who would benefit from learning about God's plan to save everyone.

So, I'm thankful that there's support for Universalism in other forums like this one too. For those who are against Universalism, it's also good to see their participation on these threads as well. In fact, I'm surprised by how much activity are on these threads. Much more active than the Tentmaker site. As a disclaimer, while I do read through every page of my threads on here, sometimes I'm not able to reply to absolutely everything.

It's interesting. Before I believed in Universalism, I would go out there and evangelize people who did not believe in Christianity. I still do that, but now, with Universalism, I feel I can send them a more complete message. It makes me wish I could have learned about Universalism earlier so back then; more people would have known the truth. But everyone will eventually learn the truth. And each person is on their own unique journey of discovery set out by the Lord. So, there's no need to worry.

I used to go soulwinning to people out of anxiety and panic, worrying about where their souls may go after they die. But with Universalism, I believe that I can spread these Christian beliefs without perturbation.

The bible is very clear that there is eternal torment for the wicked. They will have a conscious existence in the afterlife. The Bible alone is why I reject the heretical teaching known as universalism.

Mark 9:42-48
42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where

"'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'

Matthew 8:11-13
11 "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 13:41-43
41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Matthew 13:49-50
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 22:13-14
"Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Matthew 24:48-51
48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:29-30
29 "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.



2 Peter 2:1-9
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them — bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.


Jude 4-7, 12-13
4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home — these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

12 These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm — shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted — twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.



Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars — their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Revelation 19:20-21
20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Revelation 20:10
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Scripture uses these terms and phrases as synonyms:

Unquenchable fire
Fiery hell
Black darkness
Outer darkness
Furnace of fire
Fire and brimstone
The smoke of their torment
The lake of fire which burns with brimstone
Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched
The eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels

All of the above carry the same meaning and consequences for the wicked.

The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).

The punishment of the wicked in hell is as never ending as the bliss of the righteous in heaven. Jesus Himself indicates that punishment in hell is just as everlasting as life in heaven (Matthew 25:46). The wicked are forever subject to the fury and the wrath of God. Those in hell will acknowledge the perfect justice of God (Psalm 76:10). Those who are in hell will know that their punishment is just and that they alone are to blame (Deuteronomy 32:3-5). Yes, hell is real. Yes, hell is a place of torment and punishment that lasts forever and ever, with no end.

hope this helps !!!

 

[FineLinen]

The bible is very clear that there is eternal torment for the wicked. They will have a conscious existence in the afterlife. The Bible alone is why I reject the heretical teaching known as universalism.

Our Father ABBA is the beginning & ending of ta panta. What He has devised and cherishes is the whole of created life being consummated within the Lord Jesus Christ!

Ta panta = the all

Everything in the heavens the earth & the underworld.

 

[FineLinen]

Our Father ABBA is the beginning & ending of ta panta. What He has devised and cherishes is the whole of created life being consummated within the Lord Jesus Christ!

Ta panta = the all

Everything in the heavens the earth & the underworld.

• "He pre-destined us to be adopted by Himself as sons through Jesus Christ--such being His gracious will and pleasure-- to the praise of the splendour of His grace with which He has enriched us in the beloved One. It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. ~Weymouth Translation

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

• "He pre-destined us to be adopted by Himself as sons through Jesus Christ--such being His gracious will and pleasure-- to the praise of the splendour of His grace with which He has enriched us in the beloved One. It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. ~Weymouth Translation

the US in the passage are believers, not unbelievers.

hope this helps !!!

 

[FineLinen]

the US in the passage are believers, not unbelievers.

hope this helps !!!

The "whole creation" = ta panta.

It is not some (tis), but the whole enchilada of the pas, ta panta, & especially (malista).

 

[HSong]

The "whole creation" = ta panta.

It is not some (tis), but the whole enchilada of the pas, ta panta, & especially (malista).

This is true. God has stated that the whole creation has been going through the pains of childbirth. After this pain on Earth, we will all be transformed into a Christ-like image through faith in Him, Christ Jesus. Everyone will come to that belief, thus everyone will be saved.

Romans 8:21-22 NIV that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Obviously!
The declarations of Yah in both testaments are a complete picture of His purposes in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Every knee bowing in union within His Name in worship.

And yet He specifically stated that not everyone who says to Him Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of God. These people are false professors who honor Him with their lips but their heart is far from Him. So what that all will kneel that has nothing to do with salvation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Believing into the Name of Jesus is the royal road that carries us by stages of glory into union within Him.

Discipleship in the Master is one of despising your own life!

This is completely irrelevant to the context of that verse. These people are false professors not disciples. If they were disciples they wouldn’t have been denied entry into heaven.

 

[Hmm]

And yet He specifically stated that not everyone who says to Him Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of God. These people are false professors who honor Him with their lips but their heart is far from Him. So what that all will kneel that has nothing to do with salvation.

It looks like someone (not too far from here) doesn't know their Corinthians 12:3

Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking by the Spirit of God ever says “Let Jesus be cursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit.​

Tut, tut

 

[BNR32FAN]

It looks like someone (not too far from here) doesn't know their Corinthians 12:3

Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking by the Spirit of God ever says “Let Jesus be cursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit.​

Tut, tut

The Holy Spirit is not a guarantee of salvation.

“Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:30-32‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Paul continues this message in the next chapter.

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Hence Jesus’ message in Matthew 7:21-27

““Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’ “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:21-27‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

These people will proclaim Jesus as Lord but they did not hear His words and act on them. They are workers of iniquity which is why they will be condemned. They honor Him with their lips but their heart is far from them.

 

[Hmm]

The Holy Spirit is not a guarantee of salvation.

Ah yes, of course not. How silly of me! (maintaining eye contact and slowly walking backwards)