My Journey to Universalism

[Der Alte]

...

Our Father who is in essence LOVE, torments not. He loves us with an exceedingly great love flowing out of Himself. What He does is change & transform the lost children of Adam1, every one.
Salvation is not an exclusive club for the few who make wise decisions regarding Him! He is the Saviour of ALL mankind with special emphasis on those who trust in Him (the malista).

Steve: If we understand what it means to be in Christ, we are on our way to knowing what the confession of every being in every dimension of Father's world means.
The wee word "at" is IN[ in koine.
Every knee, every tongue, every dimension worshipping the Prince-Leader.

Evidently these passages are missing from UR Bibles.

Jeremiah 13:11-14
(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
(12) Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Every bottle shall be filled with wine: and they shall say unto thee, Do we not certainly know that every bottle shall be filled with wine?
(13) Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them,[many] I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

 

[HSong]

Here's a story I posted on Tentmaker about a trip to a restaurant with my family in the Summer of 2022. For those who've already seen it, I've added a more recent event below it.

Salisbury House

My dad had a gift card for the restaurant Salisbury House today, so my family and I went there, mom, dad, sister and myself as part of our summer holidays. They had a Tuesday discount of 50% off select menu items.

While eating, we came on the topic of how wonderful God’s creation is. From bees pollinating flowers to the planets rotating around the sun to preserve Earth’s exact orbit, everything is so perfectly alligned.

We then talked about how perfect Heaven must be. Even though all of humanity is cursed and bound by sin, there are still beautiful things in it. So if God is willing to preserve these systems, just for us, how much more willing will He be to save all of humanity through His son, Jesus Christ?

However, while we’re both Christian, my mother has different beliefs. While I believe in faith-alone salvation, she believes in works salvation. While I believe in Universal Salvation, she believes in a limited salvation.

John 4:42 Jesus is "the Christ, the Savior of the world."

Philippians 3:9 …Not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ

During our conversation, she said “the gate to Heaven is narrow”, but God is perfectly good, His goodness is not narrow. The perfect paradise He created out of His love for us is not narrow, it is not short of perfection.

Psalm 18:30 The way of God is perfect.

Col. 1: 27, 28 God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the gentiles, which is Christ in you the hope of glory. Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus."

She said that “Heaven will be mostly filled with children”, yet God has said that He will save not only all the children, but all the people on Earth, regardless of age.

Isaiah 54:13 "All your children shall be taught by the Lord, and great shall be the peace of your children"

Luke 2:10 But the angel said to them, Do not be afraid. I bring you good news that will cause great joy for all the people.

Yet, as said in Col 1:27, the universal salvation of everyone remains a mystery to some people. Everyone will learn the truth in due time, some earlier than others due to grace. I only wish she understands it as soon as possible, as I’ve felt how painful it is to falsely believe that people go to hell to suffer eternal concious torment. But each person is on their own journey to discover it.

I have told her the truth to benefit her, but she does not believe it. So I hope anyone reading this post can find some benefit to it.


To add on to that, on Sept 21 2022, I was reading through an old highschool yearbook that I found laying around the house and saw a girl with the quote "2 Timothy 1:7"

2 Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind

Before I learned about Christian Universalism, I used suffered from intense scrupulosity, religious fear, about what would happen after death. I would pray over and over, begging for relief. But, after learning what the truth was all along, that God will save everyone, puts my mind at ease. I'm incredibly grateful to the Lord for revealing to me the truth. Which is my motivation to going online and sharing it with others. So that their minds may be at ease too, just like how mine was put to ease.
What I also find interesting is that, ever since I started posting about Christian Universalism online, I've been seeing more Christ-related things in my life. I definitely appreciate the Lord's blessing in giving me these topics to discuss with you all. Sometimes it can be hard to find material to write about.

 

[John Owen]

This was originally posted on the Tentmaker site, but I will repost it here so you all know my background and how I came to discover Universalism, the belief that everyone will go to Heaven through Jesus Christ, that God will save all people. From Atheism to Man Made Religions to Eternal Torment to Annihilationism to Universalism

I was born into a Christian household. We were in an extremely fundamentalist legalistic church, but we escaped. After going to a few churches, we settled on a regular one that we now still go to.

Even though I attended church, at that time I did not truly know about God. I would read atheism blogs and study Nihilism by Friedrich Nietzsche. Eventually, I realized these were lies. There is no way that life is meaningless. We must have a purpose. I then started researching other religions Buddhism, Hinduism even Zoroastrianism. The problem with all of them is they required special works. Meditating for a long time, doing specific good deeds, mandatory pilgrimages. It was all man made, fake.

Then I looked back at Christianity. I was never told how to be saved, so I searched online looking for answers. I came across the extremely fundamentalist site Jesus-is-savior.com by Eternal Torment believer David J. Stewart. I don't go to that site anymore, I do not recommend any fellow Universalist to go there, but it's there where I learned a lot about the Bible and how to be saved.

These were the steps of my prayer. I saw myself as a sinner, believed with faith alone that the only way to Heaven was to accept Christ's free gift of salvation. He died on the cross, was resurrected three days later and His blood, by grace, saves me. Afterwards, I felt this wonderful feeling, my head got lighter and I felt a huge wave of relief. That was the moment when I was born again.

However, that was not the end of my journey. Looking more on that site, I could not believe that a loving God would send people to be tormented forever. Looking back at the exChristian sites I was at before, a big reason people rejected Christianity is they thought God would be torturing people in Hell.

Then, I found Annihilationism through rethinkinghell.com, the belief that, instead of torturing people forever, God would simply keep them dead forever. (Similarly, I do not recommend any fellow Universalists go to this site). While better than Eternal Torment, it was not good enough. It felt like a waste. Why would God create people with so much potential, just to destroy them? Logically, God is good, God loves us and would want all of us to be saved, is what I began to think.

Then I found the Tentmaker site, the truth, Christian Universalism, that God will save everyone through Jesus Christ, He will bring everyone to Heaven for happiness because He wills it. And when reading through the site the first time, I felt a similar relief to when I was first saved. Except, even now, when looking through here and all the Bible verses that prove this as the truth, that feeling of happiness stays there.

All this time, I would go on sites by man-made authors, telling me what to believe. I never actually really read the Bible without someone else's interpretation. So I read through it, all the hundreds of verses supporting Universal Reconciliation and it was true. This whole time, the truth was right in front of me, plainly written. I believed myself to by smart and wise to search online, always looking for a man made answer or tradition, but all I needed was to believe like a child, the simple truth, that God loves everyone and will save everyone.

Right now, my Christian parents both still believe in Eternal Torment. Even though they escaped fundamentalism, like I did, they could not escape from man-made views. And even when I tell them about Universalism, they do not believe it. They are both saved, at least. But I also feel relief knowing, eventually, they will understand the truth like I do. All people will in Heaven.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

Ephesians 1:10 As a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

Psalm 30:5 For his anger is but for a moment, and his favor is for a lifetime. Weeping may tarry for the night, but joy comes with the morning.

1 Corinthians 15:22-28 All will be made alive in Christ, but each in his own turn and ultimately Christ will subdue all his enemies, eliminate death and God will be all in all.

This is sad.

 

[Saint Steven]

This is sad.

How so?

 

[John Owen]

How so?

Annihilationism is a false belief.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Annihilationism is a false belief.

Yes it is - if some/most of humanity is permanently reduced to ashes, how can God ever become All in all?

 

[Hmm]

Annihilationism is a false belief.

Annihilationism is like having Christ making a plea bargain on our behalf for a lighter sentence whereas He's actually obtained a complete acquittal!

Although it often seems to act as a kind of halfway house on the journey from Infernalism to Universalism so perhaps it serves some purpose.

 

[Der Alte]

This is sad.

Yes, it is. Someone takes 4 disparate vss. one OT, 3 NT, slams them all together and presents them as if they formed one continuous narrative. Doing that anybody can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to. For example, Psalm 14:1 and 53:1 say there is no God. No fair looking at the context.

 

[Saint Steven]

Annihilationism is a false belief.

Yes, I don't subscribe to Annihilationism either. However...
If a "true" belief is determined by biblical support, then all three views of the final judgement are true, though contradictory to one another.
Ask an Annihilationist for their biblical support and they will give it to you.
- Damnationism
- Annihilationism
- Universalism (UR)
Here's a really great, and amazingly unbiased, talk about the three, with supporting biblical "proof" for all three views.

Hell - Three Christian Views Lecture by Steve Gregg

 

[Der Alte]

...Wrong thread.

 

[HSong]

Yes, I don't subscribe to Annihilationism either.

As a disclaimer, out of those 3 views I only believe in Christian Universalism. But...
Similarly to ECT, there was also a time where I subscribed to Annihilationism, which came after I left ECT.

For ECT, it was something I didn't think much of. I went to church, and they would talk about it, I would read discussions online that would mention it frequently even, but I never thought there could be anything else. At the time, it was all I believed in. And I believed in it for a while, even after I was saved, from an evangelical sense.

However, I was discussing to a very close family member of mine how to be saved (faith-alone), but they were persistent in their own beliefs of works salvation. They genuinely believed that you had to do more good works than evil works and that would somehow cover it. Only the blood of Jesus Christ can cover our sins!

But, I love this person very much. And it made me sad, thinking of ECT, where, even though I was saved, how could I be happy if they were still suffering? So I searched online and eventually came across Annihilationism. When I found it, I was shocked. I would pace back in forth in a hallway, praising God for His kindness and being so thankful that, even though my family member would be lost, at least they wouldn't be hurt as much.

Looking back on it now, even with that answer, I still felt sadness thinking that that family member who I cared for would be gone. While it was at least an upgrade, it still wasn't reaching the perfection that God has. I started thinking and thought "God wouldn't do this if He loves us". Even now, I still think of how much of a waste it would be. These souls spent time on Earth, they made connections with people, God enacted His will on their lives the same as He did with all His children.

So eventually, I found Universalism in a most unexpected way. It was actually on a blog post where someone was criticizing both it and Annihilationism. So even though that person was against Universalism, and last time I checked on them, they still are, it was through that post that I discovered the concept and eventually came to believe it.

So as a Universalist, I believe it's important for every Christian to at least be aware of each of these 3 beliefs, even if they only agree with one. Obviously, I'm now in favor towards Christian Universalism, but there was a time where I genuinely believed in the other 2 too, simply because I wasn't aware of what else was out there.

 

[Saint Steven]

As a disclaimer, out of those 3 views I only believe in Christian Universalism. But...
Similarly to ECT, there was also a time where I subscribed to Annihilationism, which came after I left ECT.

Yes, compared to ECT, Annihilationism seems more merciful.

But we both know that God can do better than that. Anyone that has turned over the stone that ECT lives under has seen terrible things crawl out. Pretty creepy!

 

[Saint Steven]

... So as a Universalist, I believe it's important for every Christian to at least be aware of each of these 3 beliefs, even if they only agree with one. Obviously, I'm now in favor towards Christian Universalism, but there was a time where I genuinely believed in the other 2 too, simply because I wasn't aware of what else was out there.

I have a lot of respect for those who at least understand all three views of the final judgment. I give them credit for doing the work to understand them, even if they choose not to personally accept UR.

As you well know, they could very well change their minds later. But they can't choose UR if they don't understand it. Many are so frightened by UR that they refuse to even learn to understand it. As if they might "lose" their salvation.

 

[Der Alte]

As a disclaimer, out of those 3 views I only believe in Christian Universalism. But...
Similarly to ECT, there was also a time where I subscribed to Annihilationism, which came after I left ECT.
For ECT, it was something I didn't think much of. I went to church, and they would talk about it, I would read discussions online that would mention it frequently even, but I never thought there could be anything else. At the time, it was all I believed in. And I believed in it for a while, even after I was saved, from an evangelical sense.
However, I was discussing to a very close family member of mine how to be saved (faith-alone), but they were persistent in their own beliefs of works salvation. They genuinely believed that you had to do more good works than evil works and that would somehow cover it. Only the blood of Jesus Christ can cover our sins!
But, I love this person very much. And it made me sad, thinking of ECT, where, even though I was saved, how could I be happy if they were still suffering? So I searched online and eventually came across Annihilationism. When I found it, I was shocked. I would pace back in forth in a hallway, praising God for His kindness and being so thankful that, even though my family member would be lost, at least they wouldn't be hurt as much.
Looking back on it now, even with that answer, I still felt sadness thinking that that family member who I cared for would be gone. While it was at least an upgrade, it still wasn't reaching the perfection that God has. I started thinking and thought "God wouldn't do this if He loves us". Even now, I still think of how much of a waste it would be. These souls spent time on Earth, they made connections with people, God enacted His will on their lives the same as He did with all His children.
So eventually, I found Universalism in a most unexpected way. It was actually on a blog post where someone was criticizing both it and Annihilationism. So even though that person was against Universalism, and last time I checked on them, they still are, it was through that post that I discovered the concept and eventually came to believe it.
So as a Universalist, I believe it's important for every Christian to at least be aware of each of these 3 beliefs, even if they only agree with one. Obviously, I'm now in favor towards Christian Universalism, but there was a time where I genuinely believed in the other 2 too, simply because I wasn't aware of what else was out there.[

@Saint Steven
I went to Sunday school the first time when FDR was POTUS. The only thing I remember is the red kool aid was really good. Although I went to church, Sunday School, sporadically thru my childhood I did not become a Christian until my mid 20s, when LBJ was POTUS, in U.S. Army flight school, next stop Viet Nam. Unlike many here I did not have a trainload of false teachings to unlearn. This passage spoken by Jesus, Himself, settles Universal Reconciliation for me.

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

 

[HSong]

As you well know, they could very well change their minds later. But they can't choose UR if they don't understand it. Many are so frightened by UR that they refuse to even learn to understand it. As if they might "lose" their salvation.

I can understand that fear. The fear of something you believe in being heretical.

It's why I think another belief, Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS), otherwise called the Doctrine of Eternal Security is important. It's what I believe in too. When a person is truly saved, by having faith alone in Jesus Christ, then through God's grace their salvation is guaranteed. Nothing can stop God from saving that person. You can believe this and still believe in ECT or Annihilationism too. I say this because, even though I had those 3 different beliefs at one point, I still believed in OSAS through and through. Though, now I believe in it from a Universal Salvation perspective.

John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

From my own personal Universalism-believing perspective, it adds an extra branch to that. That is, the guarantee that God will save everyone. That is, nothing can stop God from convincing the whole world to trust fully in faith to our Christ, Jesus.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Der Alte]

I can understand that fear. The fear of something you believe in being heretical.
It's why I think another belief, Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS), otherwise called the Doctrine of Eternal Security is important. It's what I believe in too. When a person is truly saved, by having faith alone in Jesus Christ, then through God's grace their salvation is guaranteed. Nothing can stop God from saving that person. You can believe this and still believe in ECT or Annihilationism too. I say this because, even though I had those 3 different beliefs at one point, I still believed in OSAS through and through. Though, now I believe in it from a Universal Salvation perspective.
John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
From my own personal Universalism-believing perspective, it adds an extra branch to that. That is, the guarantee that God will save everyone. That is, nothing can stop God from convincing the whole world to trust fully in faith to our Christ, Jesus.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You quoted and commented on John 10:28. Excellent verse, now let's look at it "in context."

John 10:24-31
(24) The Jewish leaders surrounded him and asked, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
(25) Jesus replied, “I told you and you do not believe. The deeds I do in my Father’s name testify about me.
(26) But you [Jewish leaders] refuse to believe because you are not my sheep.
(27) My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
(28) I give them [Jesus' sheep] eternal life, and they [Jesus' sheep] will never perish; no one will snatch them [Jesus' sheep] from my hand.
(29) My Father, who has given them [Jesus' sheep] to me, is greater than all, and no one can snatch them [Jesus' sheep] from my Father’s hand.
(30) The Father and I are one.”
(31) The Jewish leaders picked up rocks again to stone him to death.​

You failed to note that there are two groups here. "My sheep" and "not my sheep."
When Jesus said, "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; no one will snatch them from my hand." He was not talking about all mankind but only His sheep.
If Jesus was telling, not only His sheep but the Jewish leaders, as well, that "I give you eternal life, and you will never perish; no one will snatch you from my hand." Why would the Jewish leaders try to stone Jesus?

 

[Saint Steven]

It's why I think another belief, Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS), otherwise called the Doctrine of Eternal Security is important. It's what I believe in too.

Good to know. I'm a fan as well.

We cannot by an act of our own will, undo what only God can do in the first place.

 

[Der Alte]

@Saint Steven Please see my post #94 and #96
Post #94 Link": My Journey to Universalism

Post #96 Link: My Journey to Universalism