My family is threatening to disown me if I get married to my fiance

[Sparagmos]

Thanks a lot for your support. I find that many Christians, my parents included, cherry pick the sin they will condone & the sin that they wont. Homosexuality & Transgender always seems to be at the top of the list, yet adultery, which from a biblical viewpoint is probably in the same category, is usually looked on as a much lesser sin by most christians. How many politicians who expouse 'family values' & claim to be christian are caught having affairs, yet they are still supported by Christians because they might be against SSM or something else that christians want passed into law.

Yes I agree. The church is changing on this issue, however. If you look at the church and civil rights, it generally follows along with the general consensus but at a slower pace.

 

[Theo Barnsley]

I understand that "agnostic" means you are not sure if there is God or not. I'll check an Internet source > it seems there are variations of the definition.

I once was told that an agnostic believes there is God but the person is not sure if God is personal with humans.

If you please to consider what is in the Bible, I think I can show that the God of Biblical Christianity is personal with each of His children.

For one example, in our basic calling as Christians, we are directed to obey how our Heavenly Father personally rules us in His own peace >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

This is very personal of God, to personally effect our character with His almighty peace and personally guide us in His own peace which has us functioning in His own all-loving love.

Also, we have Romans 5:5 >

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

So, God does personally share His own love with us > He does not only talk to us from a distance. But in our "hearts", God so personally and intimately shares with us; this is so very personal, right in our "hearts".

So, in case you are an agnostic who knows the Bible, this is what you are not sure about > if there really is our Heavenly Father who is so personal with every one of His children.

Also, Hebrews 12:4-11 guarantees how our Father personally corrects every person who is a child of God.

So . . . have your parents been making an ongoing point of making sure you know about this? > God loves you and so He desires to personally rule you in His own peace; God personally shares His own love in the Holy Spirit with us; and God personally corrects His children > so, as Hebrews 12:4-11 guarantees, we share with God in His own holiness and we enjoy and benefit from having His love's "peaceable fruit of righteousness" in us?

No human can love you like this, but humans with God can love you by telling you this, about God.

So, it is wise not to put too many emotional eggs into one basket of love with some one or a few humans.

Jesus says, clearly, "if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" in Matthew 5:46.

And you agree that humans can be very wrong, I think you are saying by not agreeing with your parents. Well, one of the main ways a human can be wrong is to mainly or even only love a certain person who he or she can use for that he or she wants.

There are people who love the ones they use for the pleasure they treasure. Their preference is not really sexual, since sex is an act for reproducing. And their activities are incapable of reproduction, but they provide very intense and nice feeling pleasure. So, their preference is not really for how to reproduce, but how to use another person to get the pleasure they prefer.

And plenty of heterosexuals, I am sure, have been functioning in love which is really for the pleasure they want to feel, not really loving each other in love which has us all-loving the way Jesus wants.

So, I don't know if your parents are genuinely all-loving or not and if they submit to how God personally rules us in His peace, all through each day, and if they have brought you up by being an example of this. And I do not know if they have brought you up with good example of how the Bible commands us to relate in love >

"without complaining and disputing" (in Philippians 2:13-16).

"with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love," (Ephesians 4:2)

"submitting to one another in the fear of God." (Ephesians 5:21)

"Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:31-32)

In case you are not sure about this, or you think this is not good enough for you, yes you are capable of fooling your own self and not even knowing it. And you need to forgive anyone who has not been doing what they can to help you know and love this way.

And I myself need plenty of correction about this; so I do not have much time to spend pointing my finger at you. The Bible says that if I am a child of God, I get judged "first".

I have offered you a few basics about how the Bible says to love, and therefore how God's love in us has us relating in love. God Himself does this in us, all He means by His word.

God bless you

By being agnostic, it does not mean that I have rejected the idea of any god existing at all, however I have seen no convincing proof that one does exist. If somebody can come up with some proof that is convincing, I would believe. However even if god can be proven, you still have to be able to prove that the god is the one of the religions that you expouse to, & not one ot the other religions.

Of course humans can be wrong, including me. But tht also means that other humans can be wrong, including you. You might be wrong about your religion, & I might be wrong about my agnosticism. We could BOTH be wrong. it could be some god that hasnt bothered to even communicate with anybody, or one of the other religions could be correct.

I am not going to ditch my girlfriend & live my life according to a religious belief that in all probability & according to the evidence that I have seen is wrong. If there IS a loving god, why would he expect that of people. If he does exist, he should make it 100% certain that every single person on the planet KNOWS he exists from irrefutable evidence, & not expect people to believe on faith.

IF the bible is to be believed, the God of the bible didnt expect Moses to believe on faith, he appeared to him & talked to him for 40 days. Similarly with other prominent figures in the bible. Yet WE are expected to believe & live our lives on faith alone, with no serious evidence for his existance.

 

[RDKirk]

All of us can be wrong. At times in history before the advent of science, practically the whole of humanity has been wrong about certain things. We used to believe that the earth was the centre of the universe, & that the sun revolved around the earth. That was from a biblical standpoint (the catholic church declared gallileo a heretic for promoting this idea).

Actually, not that simple. Practically everyone accepted the geocentric theory, and had for hundreds of years longer than the Church had been around. The Church had actually accepted the ancient Greek concepts without much question.

At the time of Galileo, the heliocentric theory actually had some major holes in it, and all other scientists disagreed with it. The Church sided with the majority.

And there wouldn't have been a major issue for Galileo had he not insulted the Pope personally. That is what got him into hot water, not his theory per se.

 

[RDKirk]

By being agnostic, it does not mean that I have rejected the idea of any god existing at all, however I have seen no convincing proof that one does exist. If somebody can come up with some proof that is convincing, I would believe. However even if god can be proven, you still have to be able to prove that the god is the one of the religions that you expouse to, & not one ot the other religions.

Of course humans can be wrong, including me. But tht also means that other humans can be wrong, including you. You might be wrong about your religion, & I might be wrong about my agnosticism. We could BOTH be wrong. it could be some god that hasnt bothered to even communicate with anybody, or one of the other religions could be correct.

I am not going to ditch my girlfriend & live my life according to a religious belief that in all probability & according to the evidence that I have seen is wrong. If there IS a loving god, why would he expect that of people. If he does exist, he should make it 100% certain that every single person on the planet KNOWS he exists from irrefutable evidence, & not expect people to believe on faith.

IF the bible is to be believed, the God of the bible didnt expect Moses to believe on faith, he appeared to him & talked to him for 40 days. Similarly with other prominent figures in the bible. Yet WE are expected to believe & live our lives on faith alone, with no serious evidence for his existance.

So after saying all that--knowing you had no intention to change your mind about what you believed, what you wanted, and what you were going to do--why did you come to discuss it with Christians?

 

[Albion]

Thanks a lot for your support. I find that many Christians, my parents included, cherry pick the sin they will condone & the sin that they wont. Homosexuality & Transgender always seems to be at the top of the list, yet adultery, which from a biblical viewpoint is probably in the same category, is usually looked on as a much lesser sin by most christians.

Actually, it is not. While I appreciate your point in general, the Bible clearly identifies certain exceptions in the adultery case but there doesn't appear to be a parallel when it comes to homosexual acts.

 

[RDKirk]

Actually, it is not. While I appreciate your point in general, the Bible clearly identifies certain exceptions in the adultery case but there doesn't appear to be a parallel when it comes to homosexual acts.

A few years ago I was having a discussion over lunch with my pastor and that issue came up. He was pained that there was a dichotomy over the homosexual issue that he put to me this way:

Let's say one of the brothers was having a problem with pornography. The pastor could call together other men and say, "Brother Smith is struggling with an addiction to pornography. He fell last weekend, and he'd like us to come together with him and give him prayer and support."

And all the men would be happy to get with Brother Smith and give him prayers and support.

Or it could be adultery--Brother Smith took a business trip last week and had a one-night stand.

Or it could even be spouse abuse--Brother Smith put his wife into the hospital.

It could be a host of things, and all the men would be happy to get with Brother Smith and give him prayers and support.

But not homosexuality. If the pastor said, "Brother Smith is struggling with homosexuality. He fell last weekend, and he'd like us to come together with him and give him prayer and support," the men of the church would balk and run away.

My pastor complained that homosexuality is the one sin that a person is expected to have overcome before getting saved. And certainly before joining a church. My pastor considered that a problem.

 

[Radagast]

.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I am not trying to force my family into believing anything. The fact is that my parents were perfectly comfortable with my fiance BEFORE they were informed she was transgender.

I also find their position extremely hypocritical. My eldest sister married quite young, & 6 years later their marriage ended. They jusr werent that compatible. 4 years later she married again.

I have read the bible before, & I seem to remember Jesus saying that if a divorced woman remarries, that they are committing adultery, & the husband she has married is also committing adultery (my memory is a bit hazy, but that is the gist of it).

I think you are having a really hard time understanding your parents point of view. They were fine with your fiancé when they thought he was a female. But he is a male. I apologize if you get offended if I am not using "preferred pronouns" but I think it is important for you to understand your parent's perspective. Yes, I know that it comes across as bigoted. But that is the truth. To your parents, they see the situation no differently than as if you came out of the closet as a gay male.

Second, the scripture you are referencing is Matthew 19:9.

"I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

According to scripture that are two examples for divorce. Although it is debatable as to whether or not these two things are all inclusive or not. These include if your spouse is an unbeliever and wants to get a divorce (1 Corinthians 7:15) and sexual immorality (Matthew 5:32, 19:9). The reason being is that unless one of these two situations apply, your sister is still spiritually bound to her first husband because of the covenant she made with him on their wedding day (Matthew 19:4-6). Thus, the reason why it is forbidden to marry a divorced woman is because every time she sleeps with her new husband she is committing adultery. This also applies to men, if you divorce your wife for any other reason other than for sexual immorality, you are still spiritually bound to her.

But this is not an issue about your sister. This is about you putting your parents in a situation where they must choose to uphold their Christian values or not.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

The dad will never have to see or hear about their sex life. And it’s none of his business.

Well, regardless, it is homosexual in any definition. Even in the secular world because "sex and gender are different because sex is between your legs and gender is between your ears". Thus, penis +penis=homosexual.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

So after saying all that--knowing you had no intention to change your mind about what you believed, what you wanted, and what you were going to do--why did you come to discuss it with Christians?

I mentioned that in my first post. There are only two options, either he was expecting us to help him convince his parents to compromise Christian values or to try to better understand their parent's point of view. I think his parents have come to terms with him being agnostic because that was his decision. However, now he is expecting his parents to conform to his decisions by compromising their Christian values.

 

[SinoBen]

By being agnostic, it does not mean that I have rejected the idea of any god existing at all, however I have seen no convincing proof that one does exist. If somebody can come up with some proof that is convincing, I would believe. However even if god can be proven, you still have to be able to prove that the god is the one of the religions that you expouse to, & not one ot the other religions.

....

I am not going to ditch my girlfriend & live my life according to a religious belief that in all probability & according to the evidence that I have seen is wrong. If there IS a loving god, why would he expect that of people. If he does exist, he should make it 100% certain that every single person on the planet KNOWS he exists from irrefutable evidence, & not expect people to believe on faith.

Kia Ora Theo, been reading your thread here and wow, what a difficult situation. When I read your first paragraph on this page though, I thought "at last a chance". I cannot imagine your situation but if you can find God and love God first, the second issue may be solved.

I think the first thing you should do is to ask/challenge your parents to pray and fast (if they have not done so) and for them to seek counsel from Christian leaders. If they are not nominal Christians this should be obvious steps. They should be challenged/made to do this before they "disown" you. Demand it!

OK so.... convincing proof.
Step 1. I am praying for you now
Step 2. Know that God loves you (why not some other God? I am sure you know where to look in the bible, no other God says so and he doesn't lie, I am not going to waste precious time going over other so called "gods" and what they supposedly said)
Step 3. Know who you are as seen by God (YHWH). You are his imager. You are unique. You are priceless. You have been bought at a price. [longer list cut short] The free gift of eternal life is made available for you. Note: Jesus Christ died for you and me, we human imagers, not angels or anything else.

Implications:
God made all of creation for us. The whole universe, just for us. The proof you seek can be found just outside... Take a step out and look up.

The heavens declare the glory of God,
and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.
Day to day pours out speech,
and night to night reveals knowledge.
There is no speech, nor are there words,
whose voice is not heard.
Their voice goes out through all the earth,
and their words to the end of the world.

ESV Ps 19:1–4.

Recommended watch Dr Hugh Ross

 

[PloverWing]

It is very expensive & very invasive, & I don't want her to have to go through that, especially if it could lead to any problems.

It sounds like you are a caring and supportive companion for her. I'm glad she has you in her life.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

A
But not homosexuality. If the pastor said, "Brother Smith is struggling with homosexuality. He fell last weekend, and he'd like us to come together with him and give him prayer and support," the men of the church would balk and run away.

My pastor complained that homosexuality is the one sin that a person is expected to have overcome before getting saved. And certainly before joining a church. My pastor considered that a problem.

I see your point of view and I agree that it is a common reaction. However, sin is weighed equally in the eyes of God and we are taught to love the sinner, not the sin. In reality, homosexuality is no different than any other sinful lifestyle such as porn, drugs, alcoholism. In the men's bible study that I attend, there is one individual who is a (TRIGGER WARNING) recovering homosexual. He is really working hard and praying to break free from his lifestyle. But just like any other addict, he has his ups and downs. The difference is that this individual is not living in willful and deliberate sin. He is working it out with God.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

By being agnostic, it does not mean that I have rejected the idea of any god existing at all, however I have seen no convincing proof that one does exist.

What would proof for the existence of God look like?

 

[JCFantasy23]

Also another thing I disagree with is Christian parents who disown their children because they don't follow Christ or because they marry the wrong person. Parents should be encouraging their children and should be happy for them no matter what. We may not AGREE with the particular sin that they are dealing with but we don't have to. Our jobs as parents is to just support it while voicing our opinions.

I agree with this. I'm not comfortable with ultimatums or showing love as conditional with threats when it comes from parents. Almost all of us make decisions our parents don't agree with, especially when we're this young.

OP, I do pray and hope you come back to God - however, a lot of Christians leave the faith, sometimes temporarily, and find their way back. I know you are wanting advice from Christians on their perspective, and we can't resist putting that part in there even though that wasn't your question. Hope you understand on that part.

As for what you are actually asking - your parents - hopefully they come to peace with your decision in order not to disobey you and cut you off. Threats like that rarely work and just create strife in my opinion.

 

[HTacianas]

No, I am marrying a woman, who happens to have male parts. Her genitals don't match her brain chemistry. Call it a deformity if you will, however, I am marrying her for who she is as a person, & how compatible we appear to be, not just for her genital parts.

Well let's compare and contrast your circumstances with the circumstances of someone else. Some time ago, under some circumstances, and for some reason, I once heard a Jewish girl complain that her mother had forbidden her from marrying her fiance because as her mother put it, "his hips are too wide" and that was not a trait she wanted to see in her grandchildren.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I accept her for who she is, I am marrying the person, not the genitals.

You're marrying both, and they are one in the same...male.

You asked, we delivered, and honestly, though you don't see a lot of these posts as "kind" remarks, I think you truly wanted to hear them, hope you use them to your advantage.

 

[SvN.7]

Although I agree with the majority of the replies and think you shouldn't go ahead with this marriage from a Christian point of view, I won't continue to echo what was previously said... However, I'm inclined to ask, do you intend on having children at some point? Not adopted children, but kids of your own?

I'm not sure if this was asked by others since I didn't read everything, but some couples do tend to question and regret their relationships because they changed their minds down the line about certain things, like having kids for example, or anything that might affect being in your position.

Have you thought about your future with this person thoroughly? What if at some point you decide to go back to being a Christian? Would you divorce this person? Or what if you change as a person and can no longer accept or tolerate your partner's "transition" or whatever, how would you deal with these issues?

These are the things I'd sit down and think through because you never know what tomorrow brings. It is true that love is blind and can make you do crazy things, but it is wiser to give it extra time and think everything through rather than rushing it and regretting it later.

I still personally think you shouldn't go ahead with this marriage though, but that is your choice to make.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Also another thing I disagree with is Christian parents who disown their children because they don't follow Christ or because they marry the wrong person. Parents should be encouraging their children and should be happy for them no matter what. We may not AGREE with the particular sin that they are dealing with but we don't have to. Our jobs as parents is to just support it while voicing our opinions.

I agree with your statement about disowning children. However, encouraging your child to live a sinful and self destructive lifestyle simply because "it makes them happy" is where I draw the line. That is simply poor parenting. Our job is not to "support" sinful lifestyles and decisions. That is flat out unbiblical. Rather, we are to "train our children in the way they should go" (Proverbs 22:6) and children ought to "obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. “Honor your father and mother”—which is the first commandment with a promise—“so that it may go well with you and that you may enjoy long life on the earth” (Ephesians 6:1-3). However, fathers are instructed not to "exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord" (Ephesians 6:4). Furthermore, how then do you reconcile Romans 1:32 which says that those who approve of "wicked acts" are just as guilty as the ones who practice them? (Romans 1:32)

 

[Kenny'sID]

I find that many Christians, my parents included, cherry pick the sin they will condone & the sin that they wont. Homosexuality & Transgender always seems to be at the top of the list, yet adultery, which from a biblical viewpoint is probably in the same category, is usually looked on as a much lesser sin by most christians.

I'd challenge you to show us any Christian that condones adultery or says it's a lessor sin? We aren't under that rule anymore, but in Old Testament times, death was the penalty for both. Any one that condones adultery or thinks it's a lesser sin, is not reading their bible. Those are just the facts, but then there is human nature, or things that were built into our nature..

Human nature as in that thing that makes us repulsed at sleeping with our sister or our mother, actually many are repulsed at just the thought of them having sex. That, I have no doubt, is a God given nature so it doesn't happen. So like it or not, people are going to have that on their minds when it comes to homosexuality, unless they have let the world beat it out of them.

What you are seeing is homosexuals, and other promoters of such, promoting homosexuality as ok, and non proponents putting them in their place. It's a lot like you are doing here...it's what you want to do, so you are pushing it as not that bad or even just fine. Whether you consider yourself a Homosexual or not, I assure you that happens often enough on these boards.

You'd be hard pressed to find anyone, Atheists, or Christians, promoting lying, theft, murder...if they did they'd get the same from both sides...disagreement and no one would be singling them or the sin out, they single themselves out by promoting it as ok.

Your comment there is a common one, it gives the "Poor me/you" impression to those who aren't paying attention to what's really going on, and some may even garner a bit of sympathy from such as your comment, but for anyone who is paying attention to just what's going on...no, it holds virtually no water at all.