My family is threatening to disown me if I get married to my fiance

[trophy33]

Everyone is welcome at my church and that's our policy. We do not shame people that are transsexual by calling a person who presents herself as a woman, a man. That's just uncivil and unkind.

So, are the lutheran churches in the USA moving away from Luther? Because Luther would never agree with what you said.

 

[FireDragon76]

So, are the lutheran churches in the USA moving away from Luther? Because Luther would never agree with what you said.

Luther ain't our pope. Never has been, never will be. We honor him for getting the ball rolling and correcting the abuse of consciences in the Church, and for setting down the shape of Lutheranism, but each human being is the bearer of moral agency. The Church can help guide people, but it cannot have moral agency for individuals, nor is it just to attempt to do so.

Please keep in mind also that I am an Evangelical Lutheran . We are generally more inline with Anglicans or European state church Lutheranism. There are LCMS Lutherans on this forum that tend to be more fundamentalist or culturally conservative that do not agree with us, and have never really fellowshipped with us in our entire nation's history (in the US).

 

[trophy33]

Luther ain't our pope. Never has been, never will be. We honor him for getting the ball rolling and correcting the abuse of consciences in the Church, and for setting down the shape of Lutheranism, but each human being is the bearer of moral agency. The Church can help guide people, but it cannot have moral agency for individuals, nor is it just to attempt to do so.

Please keep in mind also that I am an Evangelical Lutheran . We are generally more inline with Anglicans or European state church Lutheranism. There are LCMS Lutherans on this forum that tend to be more fundamentalist or culturally conservative that do not agree with us, and have never really fellowshipped with us in our entire nation's history (in the US).

Still, it sounds strange to call yourself "lutheran" and disagree with Luther so much...

 

[trophy33]

The Church...cannot have moral agency for individuals, nor is it just to attempt to do so.

What do you mean by that? Or, probably a better question, how do you define church, then?

 

[FireDragon76]

Still, it sounds strange to call yourself "lutheran" and disagree with Luther so much...

I go to a Lutheran church because that is where God lead me to be. That is why I call myself Lutheran, because I am one according to my pastor and my community.

 

[FireDragon76]

What do you mean by that? Or, probably a better question, how do you define church, then?

Each individual human being must discern how they should live, what God is calling them to do. The Church can only help, it cannot control people.

In my case, God called me out of the Orthodox Church, because I do not believe their praxis or teachings about homosexuality are correct. I used to be a conservative Christian at one time, and was an Orthodox inquirer and catechumen for the better part of half a decade, but upon studying the issue of sexual ethics, theology, and philosophy, and actually meeting lots of gay people, my views changed. And it was difficult to be a good Orthodox Christian afterwards. Plus, my priest did not let me become chrismated as a result, merely for expressing my sincere concerns as we were instructed to do, he told me I lacked "enthusiasm". Also, my priest belittled any efforts I made to try to conform to the church. So in the end, like Luther, I realized I didn't have to put up with spiritual abuse, so I left for the Episcopal Church for a while before being lead to my current congregation in the ELCA.

I had a series of spiritual experiences, too. I had been struggling with cynicism and doubt, and was never sure of my vocation, until I felt the Holy Spirit on Pentecost and I knew it was a real church, my doubts were taken away. The pastor was praying a prayer, an ancient invitational prayer to the Holy Spirit, and I became aware of God's presence in the church, and instantly my doubts went away. It literally took a miracle for me to really believe this was a real church, because the Orthodox basically brainwashed me into believing they were the only real church.

 

[trophy33]

Each individual human being must discern how they should live, what God is calling them to do. The Church can only help, it cannot control people.

In my case, God called me out of the Orthodox Church, because I do not believe their praxis or teachings about homosexuality are correct. I used to be a conservative Christian at one time, and was an Orthodox inquirer and catechumen for the better part of half a decade, but upon studying the issue of sexual ethics, and actually meeting lots of gay people, my views changed. And it was difficult to be a good Orthodox Christian afterwards. Plus, my priest did not let me become chrismated as a result, merely for expressing my sincere concerns as we were instructed to do, he told me I lacked "enthusiasm". Also, my priest belittled any efforts I made to try to conform to the church. So in the end, like Luther, I realized I didn't have to put up with spiritual abuse, so I left for the Episcopal Church for a while before being lead to my current congregation in the ELCA.

I had a series of spiritual experiences, too. I had been struggling with cynicism and doubt, and was never sure of my vocation, until I felt the Holy Spirit on Pentecost and I knew it was a real church, my doubts were taken away. The pastor was praying a prayer, an ancient invitational prayer to the Holy Spirit, and I became aware of God's presence in the church, and instantly my doubts went away. It literally took a miracle for me to really believe this was a real church, because the Orthodox basically brainwashed me into believing they were the only real church.

What about Bible, can Bible control people and set moral standards of God for our lives?

I am from the Silesian Lutheran Church of Augsburg Confession (I am not a member, though) and we see homosexuality as sin.

 

[FireDragon76]

What about Bible, can Bible control people and set moral standards of God for our lives?

Biblical interpretation is not straightforward in my mind. There's a reason we send our pastors to seminary.

I am from the Silesian Lutheran Church of Augsburg Confession and we see homosexuality as sin.

You must follow your conscience, I'm not out to condemn you for doing so. Respecting the bound consciences of our brothers and sisters is foundational to being Lutheran.

Some people in our church continue to see homosexuality as a sin, according to their conscience, but our church policy condemns discrimination against gays or lesbians in housing or employment. No one in our denomination is free in that matter, as we believe that kind of discrimination is not a religious right. And all people deserve our love and respect, regardless of our views on sexual ethics.

My own pastor used to consider homosexuality a sin, but he still welcomed and respected me for taking a stand for my conscience. That is a sign of true integrity on his part, when you can disagree with someone but believe in their right to disagree.

 

[trophy33]

Biblical interpretation is not straightforward in my mind. There's a reason we send our pastors to seminary.

You must follow your conscience, I'm not out to condemn you for doing so. Respecting the bound consciences of our brothers and sisters is foundational to being Lutheran.

Some people in our church continue to see homosexuality as a sin, according to their conscience, but our church policy condemns discrimination against gays or lesbians in housing or employment. No one in our denomination is free in that matter, as we believe that kind of discrimination is not a religious right. And all people deserve our love and respect, regardless of our views on sexual ethics.

My own pastor used to consider homosexuality a sin, but he still welcomed and respected me for taking a stand for my conscience. That is a sign of true integrity on his part, when you can disagree with someone but believe in their right to disagree.

So, neither Bible nor church are moral authorities, for you, right? Just your own conscience.

How do you know that your conscience is giving you pure and right moral standards?

 

[FireDragon76]

So, neither Bible nor church are moral authorities, for you, right? Just your own conscience.

As @Archaeopteryx said on another discussion, this amounts to virtue signalling, not advancing the conversation.

Of course I consider the Bible an authority. But I believe love is the most important thing for a Christian. Especially love of strangers, outsiders, and those on the margins of society, as the Hebrew Prophets and Jesus demonstrated.

How do you know that your conscience is giving you pure and right moral standards?

We simply don't understand ethics in that manner. Ethics is worked out in the real world, not in the abstract.

 

[FireDragon76]

BTW, @myst33 ... David Wagschall has a blog called Under the Sun. It might be good reading if you want a North American Lutheran perspective. Like me, he is formerly Orthodox. He has a background in Byzantine Church history and used to be a professor at St. Vladimir's in New York. He's had a similar religious progression as my own, and he was very helpful in deconstructing the Christian tradition that I came from, understanding what makes it function and where it goes off course, and understanding the centrality of the Gospel of forgiveness and reconciliation in the Church's mission.

Under the Sun

Even after my experience at Pentecost, I still did not completely understand what being a Lutheran meant in detail. So intellectual study was also necessary for me, as well. And of course, Pastor gave me a full catechism (he answered alot of questions patiently for about a year before I joined), and made me read and study the Small Catechism and the Augsburg Confession. He even gave me a book by Martin Chemnitz on scholastic theology, which nearly made my head explode- definitely not light reading.

 

[trophy33]

BTW, @myst33 ... David Wagschall has a blog called Under the Sun. It might be good reading if you want a North American Lutheran perspective. Like me, he is formerly Orthodox. He has a background in Byzantine Church history and used to be a professor at St. Vladimir's in New York. He's had a similar religious progression as my own, and he was very helpful in deconstructing the Christian tradition that I came from, understanding what makes it function and where it goes off course, and understanding the centrality of the Gospel of forgiveness and reconciliation in the Church's mission.

Under the Sun

Even after my experience at Pentecost, I still did not completely understand what being a Lutheran meant in detail. So intellectual study was also necessary for me, as well. And of course, Pastor gave me a full catechism (he answered alot of questions patiently for about a year before I joined), and made me read and study the Small Catechism and the Augsburg Confession. He even gave me a book by Martin Chemnitz on scholastic theology, which nearly made my head explode- definitely not light reading.

I just found this on wiki:
"SECAC is a member of the World Council of Churches, the Conference of European Churches, and the Lutheran World Federation. In 2006 SECAC established a formal partnership with the Southeastern Pennsylvania Synod; this partnership was terminated in 2009 due to changes in the moral policy of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America.
Silesian Evangelical Church of the Augsburg Confession - Wikipedia

I did not know that there are such differences between lutherans.

On the other hand, I still stick to the Bible, I think that the text in the Bible (regarding homosexuality) is very clear.

 

[FireDragon76]

I just found this on wiki:
"SECAC is a member of the World Council of Churches, the Conference of European Churches, and the Lutheran World Federation. In 2006 SECAC established a formal partnership with the Southeastern Pennsylvania Synod; this partnership was terminated in 2009 due to changes in the moral policy of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America.
Silesian Evangelical Church of the Augsburg Confession - Wikipedia

I did not know that there are such differences between lutherans.

Yes, though they are not as bitter as in the Anglican world. I think because we have a different ecclessiology from Anglicans, less institutional.

 

[FireDragon76]

I just wanted to remind everyone that the topic of this thread is not about accepting transgender people. It is about condoning what is essentially a homosexual marriage and whether or not a Christian parent should accept the marriage or not.

Parents simply have no authority over grown children in this manner, debate about sexual ethics aside.

 

[FireDragon76]

Just to clear this up once & for all, so there can be no doubt, these are Jesus words quoted direct from the bible:
Mark 10:2-12
2. And some Pharisees came up to Him, testing Him, and began to question Him whether it was lawful for a man to divorce a wife. 3. And He answered and said to them, "What did Moses command you?" 4. And they said, "Moses permitted a man TO WRITE A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND HER AWAY."
5. But Jesus said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment. 6. But from the beginning of creation God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. 7. FOR THIS CAUSE A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, 8. AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; consequently they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."
10. And in the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. 11. And He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; 12. and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."

Jesus is clearly saying that RE-MARRIAGE after divorce IS adultery. He gave no caaveats after he said that.

However you want to deny this & try to say that it is 'lessser adultery', but can you quote the scripture that says that it is lesser adultery? Jesus said iti sadultery, full stop. He didnt give any caveat after he said those words & say it is lesser than any other form of adultery. You make this claim, merely because you dont like what Jesus says. However if you find any phrase that says that homosexuality is a sin, then you will be quick to jump on THAT, & point it out, & I bet that if I try to excuse it away, like YOU are trying to excuse away Jesus own words by claiming that they mean something else, then I am sure you will be very quick to jump on me & tell me that I cant excuse away Jesus own words in the bible.

Perhaps the reason you dont want to accept the words of Jesus is because you yourself have divorced & remarried, or one of your children, or some of your friends have.

Now that we can clearly see that Jesus condemns remarriage after divorce as adultery, I hope that you will stop trying to deny it.

I would also ask you one other thing. What does Jesus himself actually SAY about homosexuality. I am not talking about what Paul says, who may only be expressing his own opinion (even though you will try to claim that Paul was talking through God, again without evidence). I am asking you what Jesus himself said about it? Remarriage after divorce is obviously a big enough sin to be mentioned in all 3 synoptic gospels, & Jesus (who you claim is God) is the one who said it. There can be no higher authority than that! So tell me, what is the equivalence for condemnation of homosexuality by Jesus himself, since you are claiming that it is a much worse sin than re-marriage after divorce (adultery), & where does it say that it is a worse sin than adultery?

You should follow your own conscience. Expecting validation from people from a completely different worldview is foolish.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Parents simply have no authority over grown children in this manner, debate about sexual ethics aside.

Neither does the children have the authority to force their parents to accept an unbiblical marriage.