My family is threatening to disown me if I get married to my fiance

[Theo Barnsley]

Up until the early 1950s scientists thought the universe was eternal and uncaused. Science has now excepted the fact that it had a definite beginning. Something the Bible claimed thousands of years ago. Is that a good start? You want evidence for the existence of God. Look around you and ask yourself "why does something exist as opposed to nothing?"

So because the bible got ONE thing right in the creation acount, then that proves the accuracy of the whole thing?

 

[Theo Barnsley]

Here in the above lies your problem, you set out to disprove that God exists. And at a time where more and more science, people much smarter than you or I have run the numbers and their own computers come to the exact opposite conclusion, that in fact there is a kind of order in the world and universe that points to the notion that actually there not only likely is God but there has to be one ! The same instruments you speak of slowly show the existence of an all knowing force behind it all, and in the bible that force named Himself GOD.

You say we can't prove there is God even though we see the proof and live the change in our hearts. But worse than that, the science you want to tout in no can prove there is no God. You can't prove there is no God ! The very quantum math computers used to prove there is none came up with a calculation that the chance of no God is .0000001 ( excuse the error if I missed a 0).

I never made the claim that there is NO God. I have already said that God cannot be proven one way or the other. There is no proof for & no proof against. I did say that even if God can be proven, that still dosnt prove that he is the same God that is in the christian bible. Even if God can be proven, you still have to prove that the bible is true, & that jesus was god who walked on earth.

Can you site the source of your information, somewhere that is from a proper scientific source, & not just something that you read from another christian website that has no scientific basis behind it? If there IS such research, & it is genuine research, I would like to know about it. But just making a claim of something dosnt make it true unless it is backed up with actual scientific evidence, who's claims can be tested, & verified by other scientists. That is how true science works. Anybody can put out a hypothesis or a theory, but that hyposesis or theory has to be tested over & over to see if it stands up to scrutiny, & matches the predictions that it makes.

 

[Theo Barnsley]

Are you really going to try to disprove religion by proving your fiancé is a man who is fooled into thinking he is a girl? I think you probably should reevaluate your plan of attack. I don't see it going far.

Now you are verballing me. i was replying to somebody else who made that sugestion, NOT myself. I am not trying to disprove anything. The person I replied to made the comment that he himself suffers from delusional thoughts. I suggest that you read the whole message before you jump to false conclusions.

I didnt come here to 'disprove' religion. But I have been asked the question by you yourself, what would proof consist of, & I have given my answer. You now have the opportunity to prove ME wrong if you want to or think you can.

 

[Theo Barnsley]

OK, I see how it is. Are you suggesting that we are merely ignorant bigots because we believe the Bible over someone's "self identification"?

Again you are putting words into my mouth. I never made that claim. Maybe you think that because you see it in yourself. There may be some people who have a genuine interest in other people.

Before 3 years ago I never knew any transgender or homosexual people. I had none as friends, & really had no interest in knowing any as friends. Then a chance meeting with the girl who was to become my fiance changed that, I now I realise that they are just like everybody else, & some of them are very nice, thoughtful & caring people.

Before I had no interest with being friends with any of them, & now I am happy to have them as friends. None of them come across as demonic people who just wasnt to sin against god, which is the impression that i think that SOME christians have.

If people got to know some transgender persons or homosexual persons & really understand them, they might think better of them. It wasnt that long ago when Jewish people were despised by many christians, because they were blamed for killing Jesus. They were despised so much, that throughtoutthe last 2000 years many many millions have been killed & tortured, for no other crime than being a jew.

Thankfully that attitide has now changed somewhat, however it still persists in some areas.

Black people were also despised by many, who saw them as less than human, & not fit for anything other than to be slaves to white persons. Again, in most areas, this attitude has now changed, although in some areas it may still persist.

Likewise with homosexuals. they too have been despised & murdered for centuries, mainly because of religious teachings. However in many countries, they are now being accepted as normal people, which they of course are. However there are STILL countries, where being openly gay can lead to imprisonment, beating, torture, or even death.

Slowly, very slowly, the world is becoming a more accepting & better place. However in the most part this progression is being hampered by religion (not JUST christian religion, but other religion as well) which often exploits our differences, & uses the religion as an excuse to discriminate or even promote hate against others.

 

[Dave G.]

I never made the claim that there is NO God. I have already said that God cannot be proven one way or the other. There is no proof for & no proof against. I did say that even if God can be proven, that still dosnt prove that he is the same God that is in the christian bible. Even if God can be proven, you still have to prove that the bible is true, & that jesus was god who walked on earth.

Can you site the source of your information, somewhere that is from a proper scientific source, & not just something that you read from another christian website that has no scientific basis behind it? If there IS such research, & it is genuine research, I would like to know about it. But just making a claim of something dosnt make it true unless it is backed up with actual scientific evidence, who's claims can be tested, & verified by other scientists. That is how true science works. Anybody can put out a hypothesis or a theory, but that hyposesis or theory has to be tested over & over to see if it stands up to scrutiny, & matches the predictions that it makes.

Chuck Missler who recently passed away but was involved with some of these folks ( especially in the area of quantum) quoted the sources, his videos are still up and running I believe. Ravi Zacharias also states quotes from people of the science world and atheists as well. All you need to do is a little research on the matters I spoke of though. If it's actually important to you you will find the answers. But I suspect you have been more interested in disproving God and the bible that proving them. You seem eager to believe non existence. Why not let science prove existence, why not if to error do it to that side rather than the path you have chosen ?

Evidence ? All you have to do is look around and if you can look with your own eyes and come to the conclusion that all you see on earth and in heaven just created itself, then well it will take God Himself to show you otherwise. He just might ! By chance you aren't working on a science or engineering degree are you ? These are people who tend to struggle most with that leap of faith in a real living God is why I ask. Chuck I believe came from an engineering background but went on to become Dr in theology and a strong believer, he would tear up in speaking about Jesus Christ sometimes. And why not, non of us deserves to be saved but He died for us that we might live and if you were the only person He still would have died for you, to rise again and forever overcome Satan and you with Him.

God is in everything, that includes science.

 

[Theo Barnsley]

But I suspect you have been more interested in disproving God and the bible that proving them. You seem eager to believe non existence. Why not let science prove existence, why not if to error do it to that side rather than the path you have chosen ?

Evidence ? All you have to do is look around and if you can look with your own eyes and come to the conclusion that all you see on earth and in heaven just created itself, then well it will take God Himself to show you otherwise. He just might ! By chance you aren't working on a science or engineering degree are you ? These are people who tend to struggle most with that leap of faith in a real living God is why I ask. Chuck I believe came from an engineering background but went on to become Dr in theology and a strong believer, he would tear up in speaking about Jesus Christ sometimes. And why not, non of us deserves to be saved but He died for us that we might live and if you were the only person He still would have died for you, to rise again and forever overcome Satan and you with Him.

God is in everything, that includes science.

It is not a matter of being interested in disproving God. I have listened to both sides of the argument, & also through bible study, the evidence just dosnt stack up to me. I am not talking about God per se, I am talking about the Christian god. The main thing that has convinced me that it isnt true is through reading the bible itself, & not being able to reconcile the many inconsistencies.

I am prepared to accept that there may have been a prime mover in the big bang, that could be referred to as a God of some sort. However I am not prepared to believe, based on the evidence that I have seen, that any god that may exist is the god that is described in either the old or new testament. That would take some fairly convincing evidence that nobody has been able to produce.

There are about 1.5 billion muslims in the world. Their reason for believing THEIR religion is probably just as valid in their mind for you believing in YOUR religion. I am sure you can both provide arguments equally as convincing (or unconvincing depending on your viewpoint) as to why YOUR god is the one true god. But inevitably at least one (or I suspect both) of you is going to be wrong.

 

[Dave G.]

Theo, as to transgender, it isn't that they are demonic or even possessed but rather deceived, though some could be.. They don't know who they are, meanwhile a person with certain apparatus are males, the other are females. Biblically, you a male, don't marry a person with the same equipment you have. But you have left Christ and also subject to the deception thinking otherwise. You're engaged to a man. Nobody ever said he isn't a nice man or doesn't act like a woman but he is a man, if he has full male parts.

 

[Dave G.]

It is not a matter of being interested in disproving God. I have listened to both sides of the argument, & also through bible study, the evidence just dosnt stack up to me. I am not talking about God per se, I am talking about the Christian god. The main thing that has convinced me that it isnt true is through reading the bible itself, & not being able to reconcile the many inconsistencies.

I am prepared to accept that there may have been a prime mover in the big bang, that could be referred to as a God of some sort. However I am not prepared to believe, based on the evidence that I have seen, that any god that may exist is the god that is described in either the old or new testament. That would take some fairly convincing evidence that nobody has been able to produce.

There are about 1.5 billion muslims in the world. Their reason for believing THEIR religion is probably just as valid in their mind for you believing in YOUR religion. I am sure you can both provide arguments equally as convincing (or unconvincing depending on your viewpoint) as to why YOUR god is the one true god. But inevitably at least one (or I suspect both) of you is going to be wrong.

Muslims don't have a savior who was predicted thousands of years in advance to come and did come, died on a cross and rose again for the salvation of your soul, the forgiveness of your sins. In fact no one but us Christians have that. Isaiah prophesied 700 years before the coming of Christ what that was going to look like and it came to pass. The term born again is real, it really takes place in our hearts, there is a change that takes place in our lives when we ask Jesus in. We become a new person, we look the same to some degree of course ( there is a new light about us though), our governing body is different. This is why we can't just show you, the fruit is in us. How can I say this and not have it be that I was just influenced by the bible itself ? I was raised Catholic in a time where Catholics were encouraged to not read the bible. The bible was gobbledygook to me. I only knew Catholic traditions, masses and rituals and some of their teaching, I did not know scripture at all. I was leery of Jesus, believed in God the Father who in my young mind was like the CEO of everything. In my young adulthood I ran off the rails, did some things I shouldn't have, got in with people I maybe shouldn't have and got full of anxiety. Beside myself at 29 years old I turned to Jesus Christ and gave him my life upstairs in my bedroom of this house I still live in now. My life completely changed, things happened to me, old interests left and new ones came. Things I had cherished were sold off as worthless to me now.I gained Spirit life, everything that took place in me I came to find out later through bible study is described in the bible. I had no clue this was in there, I didn't know what I had done in coming to Christ because I had had no bible life prior. Theo, He saved me, He saved my life and it's eternal. He can do the same for you. Muslims can't do this for you, only you can come to Christ just as you are.

My prayer for you is that God, the one we know to be true as Christians will just place a little inclination in you to seek Him, Seek The Son of the living God. Things have taken place in my life that go beyond any earthly explanation is actually the best I can offer you. You have to live it yourself. I know the Christ story is unbelievable, I to this day have to take a double take every now and then myself, it defies common sense it really does. But it's as true as me typing this right now.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I am just trying to get the perspective of other christians to try to understand how my parents think.

See, that's where you and I are just a tad bit different. I, for instance, would never go to an atheist website to ask for advice. Then again, I'm hard pressed to ask even Christians on a Christian website for advice as well ...

Also if some people are able to understand more about transgender persons, then that may be a positive as well, because I think that most people who are against them probably dont know any trangender people (or maybe some do but dont know that they do).

Well, that's just the thing. Presenting your dilemma in the shape of a family problem over which you're posturing for advice when you really want to instill 'awareness' in your interlocutors comes across to me as being a little bit dubious in nature. But, I realize you have your personal causes and your situations to deal with.

I realise that there are those who will NEVER change their minds about some things, but some may if they have more information.

Sure. Some of us Christians will probably always see LGBTQ+ at least as forms of mental disequilibrium for which those affected will need care and assistance.

Of course, on the other hand, whatever the true nature of these sexual outlooks may be, it seems to me that your parents would be wrong to flat-out disown you for your relationship choices ... especially if your parents are supposedly 'Christian.'

 

[Albion]

My pastor complained that homosexuality is the one sin that a person is expected to have overcome before getting saved. And certainly before joining a church. My pastor considered that a problem.

I cannot agree that this ^ is true of every church; but in any case, it isn't the point I was making (in case it seemed to you that it was).

 

[Albion]

So because the bible identifies certain exceptions, then even if those exceptions do NOT apply, you appear willing to give them the benefit of the doubt?

I didn't say that. I merely pointed out that the two are not treated identically in Scripture as I understood you to be saying.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

So because the bible got ONE thing right in the creation acount, then that proves the accuracy of the whole thing?

No, but it is a start. Perhaps you should instead ask yourself what else scientists are wrong about?

 

[Kenny'sID]

Again, you seem to want to change the scripture according to your won beliefs, other than what it actually said in the bible.
Adultery WAS a capital punishment in the Old Testament. Jesus clearly said that remarriage after divorce is ADULTERY.

No, my friend, you keep bouncing back and forth here, one minute you are talking about adultery as in divorce and remarriage, (exactly what I was talking about/replying to) and now you have jumped back to the punishable by death, straight up adultery.

he never said that it was a less sinful adultery. He just said it is adultery. Adultery IS a capital punishment int the Old Testament. However you seem to want to add your own interpretation, just because it suits you to do so. Jesus wasnt just talking about divorce being a sin, he was talking about remarriage AFTER divorce. You seem to want to equate the divorce with the sin of REMARRIAGE after divorce, which is what causes the adultery.

You aren't paying attention, STOP and listen. Divorce and remarriage was NEVER a a damnable sin as strait up adultery was, even in the OT. The law allowed it. Then later in the NT Jesus only said that was not the way it was meant to be because God intended for us to be together always. You say Jesus never said it was a lessor sin but where did he once call divorce and remarriage damnable? He himself said it was allowed because of the hardness of their hearts, and never once said it was any different then over today where it is still allowed for us to divorce and remarry. IT'S A LESSER ADULTERY, always has been, and as far as I know, always will be. It was allowed by the old law and Christ didn't change that.

If you don't get it this time, oh, well, but don't accuse me of changing the bible. Everything I just said is in line with what the bible says, you are the one calling divorce and remarriage a damnable sin...why? If the law of Moses allowed it, how could it be damnable? There wasn't even a penalty for it like fornication or standard adultery back then, as a matter of fact, it wasn't even considered adultery, Christ coined it adultery in the NT but once again, never said the punishment for it was any more than back then, as in there was none (it's actually it's own punishment)... I realize your view works for you, but it's just not reality. No one is singling HS's out, as much as you'd like that to be the case.

YOU call it splitting hairs, because you want to try to minimise the sin of adultery compared to homosexuality. Where in the bible does it say that that is the case?

I minimize nothing, you maximized it wrongly, you said Jesus spoke of adultery as a damnable sin, and the sin he was referring to was not. In the beginning of this I said to show me a christian who says adultery is acceptable, and then, knowing you could not do that, you switched gears to the divorce and remarry adultery that is in reality still allowed yet you are still claiming it's damnable when it never was that and still isn't

 

[RDKirk]

Actually, it is not. While I appreciate your point in general, the Bible clearly identifies certain exceptions in the adultery case but there doesn't appear to be a parallel when it comes to homosexual acts.

There are no "exceptions" to adultery that would not be applicable to homosexuality under the same circumstances.

(There aren't actually any exceptions to adultery--it's always a sin.)

 

[Albion]

There are no "exceptions" to adultery that would not be applicable to homosexuality under the same circumstances.

If you word it that way, it can be made to seem so. What I was referring to, however, and in the context of the post to which I was responding, is the fact that some divorces and remarriages are considered--by the Bible--to be adulterous, BUT others are not. It depends on the circumstances. However, there is no such "depends on the circumstances" when it comes to homosexual acts.

 

[RDKirk]

If you word it that way, it can be made to seem so. What I was referring to, however, and in the context of the post to which I was responding, is the fact that some divorces and remarriages are considered--by the Bible--to be adulterous, BUT others are not. It depends on the circumstances. However, there is no such "depends on the circumstances" when it comes to homosexual acts.

No, they're all adulterous and they're all a matter of sin. But when a person has been "caused" by another person to sin, Christ points the guilt to the one who caused it.

That would be no different for homosexuality. If a person was placed into a situation by someone else in which homosexuality was "caused" (such as a young boy being trafficked in the sex trade), Christ would still point the guilt at the person who caused the sin.

 

[Albion]

No, they're all adulterous and they're all a matter of sin.

Hmm. It's interesting that you should think so when the Bible is so explicit.

 

[RDKirk]

Hmm. It's interesting that you should think so when the Bible is so explicit.

You're going to have to show me a biblical case of adultery where sin was not involved.

 

[Sparagmos]

A parents perspective, because I am one 4 times over and because I had two parents and am Christian and so were they. I'm reasonably sure I can speak for how your parents feel about this. They are watching their son take measures that will deliver him to hell and this grieves them. It's not the transgender issue alone, that is the icing on the cake. You rejected Christ, which is against their up bringing of you. Spiritually they have lost their son. You grieve them, you grieve God, then you expect them to condone your actions, actions that are beyond biblical acceptable truth . You're a dead man spiritually. Your only hope is Jesus Christ and you reject that hope. Your parents probably cry themselves to sleep at night. How much crap do you think you can throw in their faces and they still bear it. A parent never and I mean never gives up hope but that doesn't mean they submit to your actions. Meanwhile deep down inside they are agonizing for your soul, because like God, they love you.. When you walked away from Jesus Christ rejecting the offer of eternal life all of heaven groaned, Why ? Because one soul is worth more than all the world. It saddens everyone there, it saddens your parents and it saddens any true Christian as well. We don't like seeing Satan getting a foot hold and the opportunity to destroy another life, he is arch enemy number one and hates us all. True Christians live in this world where he rules but we are not of this world. You are selfish, in that selfishness you want what You want even if it means rejecting the God of the universe and taking up with the enemy SATAN. You just don't realize all that because well, you want what you want. You have free will, God will let you go. And your parents as practicing Christians know this.

And by the way, if you ever come back to Christ and you could, all of heaven will rejoice, as will your parents and as will every true Christian who hears of it. You need to read the story of the prodigal son. He wanted what he wanted too and his father let him have it, but when it didn't work and the son returned he was met with open arms and a huge party was thrown for his return.

Yes but unlike the prodigal son, this man’s parents are disowning him. And note that his parents didn’t disown him when he left their faith, causing him, as you say, to go to hell. They disowned him for getting engaged to a transgender person. So I guess that is worse than not being a Christian?

 

[com7fy8]

Some religions will say that there is no science to prove that anybody is born transgender.

Have you read 1 Thessalonians 2:4-12?

Who we are has nothing, really, to do with what body we are in. Male and female can be about what a certain culture considers male or female to be.

What matters is if and how we can relate and be peaceful and quiet, not allowing wrong people to have power to decide how we are and what we do. In God's love we have the temperament to stay "without complaining and disputing" (Philippians 2:13-16).