Must Confession be Catholic?

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Is the bold, italic, and underlining of the word only in my below quote not emphasized enough?

Another Straw Man.

The Catholic Church does not teach what you wrote. Baptism forgives sins. The Penitential Rite at Mass forgives sins, reception of the Eucharist forgives sins, and a personal act of contrition that arises from a love of God forgives sins. Confession is the only ordinary means for Catholics to receive absolution of mortal sins, and even then exceptions would apply where confession would be impossible. God is not bound by the Sacraments.

The Catholic Church teaches that Protestants such as yourself can be saved, so even simple 4 year old logic should be enough to tell you that the Catholic Church does not teach what you wrote.

And you were raised Catholic and should have been taught the above things. So you are being disingenuous (again).

Wow, you really danced around that one. Did you really misunderstand his point, or are you deliberately misconstruing it?

@Goatee gave some verses stating that we should confess our sins one to another.

@Phil 1:21 pointed out that it was one to another, not one to a priest. The verses did not indicate that the priest was the only one we could confess our sins to.

They did a little back-and-forth dance, and ended with a facetious agreement. The argument was never concluded. Goatee never showed how the scripture told us to confess to priests, rather than laity. That was the point. Your counter-argument, PeaceB, completely ignored the point of the interchange and went off on a tangent about the purpose of confession and what kind of forgiveness it was capable of bringing.

Now, I've never heard of Catholics going into confessional booths to confess to other laity, and I've never seen scripture saying that confession must necessarily be to a priest and never to laity, so in my mind it looks like Phil 1:21 won that one, unless there are any further points to be made.

Nice little debate there. Those mono et mono debates can get tiresome on these forums, but this one was interesting.

 

[Tree of Life]

Repayment? no. Atonement, more like. If a kid bats a ball through a window, you can never unbreak the window. You can make reparition, though. It's an attempt to make right what is wrong. Jesus told us "“If your brother* sins [against you], go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church." I know this sounds backward, but in the first instance, you're allowing the one who sinned against you to repent. That's confession. In modern day, it's voluntary.

By the way, you don't have to only go during set hours. You can tap the priest on the shoulder almost any time, or make an appointment.

This sounds to me like repayment. To pay to repair the broken window is exactly that - repayment. Forgiveness is what is offered to us through Christ and it's the opposite of repayment. In forgiveness Jesus pays for our sins and there is no payment required from us.

 

[Root of Jesse]

This sounds to me like repayment. To pay to repair the broken window is exactly that - repayment. Forgiveness is what is offered to us through Christ and it's the opposite of repayment. In forgiveness Jesus pays for our sins and there is no payment required from us.

To actually fix it is atonement.
Here's the difference.
"Mr. Jones, I broke your window. I'm sorry."
"That's ok, Billy, I forgive you. I know it was an accident. I still need to get this window fixed."
"Mr. Jones, my dad and I will fix it, and I know he will expect me to pay him back for it."
"That sounds really good, Billy."
Fixing the window and actually having to make amends for it is penance.
Christ paid for our sins, BTW. He does expect something from us, though.

 

[Tree of Life]

To actually fix it is atonement.
Here's the difference.
"Mr. Jones, I broke your window. I'm sorry."
"That's ok, Billy, I forgive you. I know it was an accident. I still need to get this window fixed."
"Mr. Jones, my dad and I will fix it, and I know he will expect me to pay him back for it."
"That sounds really good, Billy."
Fixing the window and actually having to make amends for it is penance.
Christ paid for our sins, BTW. He does expect something from us, though.

Perhaps here's the departure. I think this is a radically unbiblical notion of forgiveness.

If Billy has to make amends for the window and pay for its repair then he has not actually been forgiven. Sin always creates a debt, as is seen in your window example. In the case of this debt there is always a breach in relationship that requires reconciliation. There are only two ways to achieve reconciliation. One is if the offender pays to satisfy the debt. This is simple justice and the relationship is thereby restored. The other is for the offended to forgive the debt and pay for the damages himself. In this case, the offender is not required to repay at all because forgiveness has occurred. Forgiveness is always costly for the one who is giving it.

Your notion of "forgiveness" which still requires a repayment is not forgiveness at all, but simple justice.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Perhaps here's the departure. I think this is a radically unbiblical notion of forgiveness.

If Billy has to make amends for the window and pay for its repair then he has not actually been forgiven. Sin always creates a debt, as is seen in your window example. In the case of this debt there is always a breach in relationship that requires reconciliation. There are only two ways to achieve reconciliation. One is if the offender pays to satisfy the debt. This is simple justice and the relationship is thereby restored. The other is for the offended to forgive the debt and pay for the damages himself. In this case, the offender is not required to repay at all because forgiveness has occurred. Forgiveness is always costly for the one who is giving it.

Your notion of "forgiveness" which still requires a repayment is not forgiveness at all, but simple justice.

That's just wrong. Sin does create debt. "Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors." Every sin must be atoned, one way or another. Forgiveness for sin is a different matter. Forgiveness doesn't mean forgetting.
Forgiveness is the intentional and voluntary process by which a victim undergoes a change in feelings and attitude regarding an offense.

 

[Tree of Life]

That's just wrong. Sin does create debt. "Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors." Every sin must be atoned, one way or another. Forgiveness for sin is a different matter. Forgiveness doesn't mean forgetting.
Forgiveness is the intentional and voluntary process by which a victim undergoes a change in feelings and attitude regarding an offense.

I said that sin creates a debt, so we agree there. I agree that every sin must be atoned for in order to put the world to rights. And I'm ok with the notion that forgiving doesn't necessarily mean forgetting.

But forgiveness is not a different matter from atonement. And forgiveness may involve a change in feelings, but it's much more than that. It's very concrete. That's why we pray for forgiveness for our debts and we are told to forgive our debtors. Consider also the example of the unforgiving servant in Matthew 18:21-35. The King forgave him his large debt. This doesn't just mean that the king changed his attitude toward the servant, yet still required him to slowly repay the debt and make amends. The king canceled his debt! The King absorbed the cost of the debt himself. That's what it means to forgive.

Your notion of forgiveness is highly unbiblical and denies the essence of the gospel. For Christians, there is no need to atone for our sins with God because Jesus has made all atonement. There is nothing that we need to atone for or repay. This does not mean that when we harm our fellow man that we should not seek to make restitution. Restitution for harms to fellow men can be very appropriate. But, of course, if we harm our neighbor and they forgive us then this means that they do not expect nor require any restitution.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

Heb 10:14 for by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified(set apart, made holy). There is no further payment required for the perfection of the saints set apart at salvation. By grace are we saved through faith and that not of ourselves, it is a gift of God. Rom 4:1-8 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: 7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.” What sin debt does the saint have that Jesus hasn't already paid for, that is why by the one offering we are perfected forever. We now are children of God 1John3:2-3 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. What a great blessing, our debts are all paid, Jesus said, it is finished!

 

[David Kent]

But, one does not confess to the priest! One confesses to God! The priest is just a vessel.

There is no priest in the Chrisstian Church, but the priesthood of all believers.

 

[Goatee]

There is no priest in the Chrisstian Church, but the priesthood of all believers.

Your view obviously!

 

[Galilee63]

Our Lord Jesus said to Holy Saint Marie Chambon on His Blessed Holy Sacrament of Holy Confession and Holy Reconciliation - these are "Holy Divine Heavenly Sacraments" within the Holy Divine Heavenly Mysteries of God our Heavenly Father's - 1/ Jesus is The Holy Word and all contained within, 2/ Jesus is The Holy Divine Flesh and Blood His Presence in all of His Blessed Holy Sacraments with His Holy Divine Blessings Gifts and Graces in every one of His Blessed Holy Sacraments in His Catholic Church, Christian and Universal Church, 3/ In Holy Repentance Sacraments - Holy Reconciliation and Holy Confession, Our Lord Jesus has told thousands of His Nuns/Saints He is indeed Physically and Spiritually Present hidden behind His Priests in the Confessional listening and forgiving clearing our sins off our souls in Holy Absolution through His Priests while Blessing and Gifting us in healing at the same time - and more has been said by Jesus on His Holy Divine Sacraments of which are from God in Jesus Mercy.

Here Jesus says to Holy Saint Marie Chambon on Reconciliation/Holy Confession - one of these

"Remember that every fault whatever it may be, disrupts your intimate unity with Me. indeed it can even destroy it. Do everything to regain this unity once more. Come to Me. For I will help you.
Whatever you have done, if you only come in Sorrow to Me then I will forgive everything.
All repentance is an act of Love and Humility.
and opens all the Gifts of Grace for your healing in soul and body.
My Love has given you the great Sacrament of Reconciliation.
So come, with all your burdens and give them to Me,
and then My Mercy which I have entrusted to The Church,
can ever again take new effect in you in its abundant tender Love and Kindness.


Saving this as laptop crashing. Add rest in moment.

 

[Galilee63]

Holy Confession

Our Lord Jesus said to Holy Saint Marie Chambon in the 1900s

"Oh take care of your souls, your so precious souls.
Do all you can to keep them pure.
so pure that Gods Love can be reflected in them.
How happy you should be at the Sacrament of Holy
Confession.
Thank Me with all of your hearts for this!
Where else will you take your woundedness.
little and great,
if not to Me?
Who else can help you?
Who can truly give you healing?
for soul and spirit and body too?
Bring Me everything!
Place even the little injuries in My Heart so then I can heal them too.
and they can no longer grow and lead to death.
Come, so that from the Love of My Heart you can receive the Grace of True Repentance through which you are transformed and healed right down to the marrow of your bones.
Ask and pray that mankind be led to knowledge of its guilt and through repentance, to conversion and thus to healing and salvation.

 

[Vicomte13]

As a Reformed believer I've always admired the Catholic practice of confession. I think that it ends up having some theological pitfalls and my Catholic brothers are welcome to correct me if I'm misunderstanding them. But to me, the pitfalls are:

1. A notion of penance which appears to be a form of re-payment for our sins.
2. The insistence that an ordained priest must hear confession in order for a person to receive forgiveness (extenuating circumstances aside).

Reformed types, and by extension most Protestants, have rejected these theological pitfalls, but why have we rejected the practice of confession altogether? The idea of fixed hours wherein parishioners may come to the pastor or elders of the church in order to confess their sins seems to me to be a wonderful help against the corruptions of the flesh. Yet this is not advertised, encouraged, or even practiced among reformed believers and protestants alike.

Why not? Wouldn't we benefit from it?

I think that confession to a man who was not an ordained priest, in a denomination where people did not believe that their pastor was what Catholic believe their priests are, would be a dreadful mistake.

Because of what we believe our priests to be, and because of what we believe the priest is doing in confession, it works.

Without those beliefs, deeply held on both the part of the confessor and penitent, I am pretty sure that confession would turn into a gigantic source of power plays, blackmail, rage, violence and endless lawsuits.

Men can always confess to God. Because Catholics believe - we really believe - that the priest is sitting there in the person of Christ, and that God is forgiving us as he pronounces the word, and that - just as the Pope is governed by the power of God who makes it impossible for the Pope to say anything fallible when he speaks ex cathedra on a matter of faith and morals - that God's will overwhelms the Pope's human freewill in such times, and that it is God speaking directly and as God, through the Pope's human voice - so too, both the priest and the penitent in the Confession believe that the priest is speaking in the person of Christ, and that when the priest says "Your sins are forgiven", that is not just the priest speaking, but Jesus speaking through the priest - a near analogy would be holy possession.

So the priest doesn't really forgive Catholics their sins, God does, and the priest is merely the human voice by which God does it.

Whether it's true or not, the priest really believes that - and is fearful of that power therefore - and the penitent really believes it - else he would not go and expose his darkest secrets to the priest.

Strip those parallel beliefs away - and Protestants do not have either of those beliefs and find them rather offensive, truth be told - and what do you have? A man, telling his deepest, darkest secrets to another man.

Now remember, too, the Catholic priest is not elected, not chosen by his parish. He cannot be fired by his parish. He is stationed in a Church for a time by a bishop, who can (and will) move him, put other priests in there, etc. The priest does not work for the congregation - they don't hire him, they don't fire him, and they can't change his pay or anything. So when the priest sits there in confession, in personam Christi, he does not sit there in any way as the employee of the man whose confession he is hearing. He is hearing a man who has no authority over him, and with whom he does not enter into any negotiation. He is, essentially, a noble lord listening to the groanings of a nameless and faceless peasant.

The Protestant structure is very different. You hire and fire your preachers. They work for you. There is a board, and it is active. "Membership" really means something, and there is a lot of personal interaction. In many ways that is admirable. But when a relationship between a minister and parts of a congregation go wobbly, there can be really terrible politics and lawsuits and personal conflict in a Protestant Church. In a Catholic Church, the priest is a functionary, imposed from outside, he can't be fired. Catholic priests get moved if they do something horrendous, or they get old, or get sick, or have alcohol problems that impair their functioning, etc. But the congregation can't really get into a shoving match with a priest. There's no power dynamic (other than in the divine realm - but there's always another Catholic church in town), not really.

The Protestant minister is much more deeply engaged on a personal, and financial, and career basis with his congregation, and vice-versa. Which means politics. In politics, knowledge is power. Is it wise, really, in our litigious society for a man to hear confessions from his bosses, or for an employee to confess to his boss?

Protestants know that the minister is not standing there in the person of Christ. They know that he does not have supernatural power to forgive sins flowing through him from God infallibly. And the minister always knows that he has to be careful with each congregant. And the congregant's social life is bound into this organization.

Also, ministers are married, and their wives and children figure in the congregation. Priests are celibate. Other factors come into play.

The Catholic believes in mortal sin, and that if he dies unshriven he will go to Hell. So the Catholic will go and confess having adulterous sex with another congregant, and the priest will hear that and, bound by the seal of confession - and fearing God whom he channels in confession and touches in the eucharist - the priest really won't break that seal - including to go talk to the other congregant in the adulterous affair.

The minister, in the same position, is put into a horrendous quandary, particularly if the man giving the confession is either very powerful or is having an affair with the wife of the very powerful. All of the supernatural, superstitious fear and faith in sacraments that drives us Catholics along in what we do - all of that stuff that Protestants call "idolatry" isn't an act - we FEEL the power of God when we do those things.

You don't. So you have people for whom the seal of confession is a contract, and you have political pressures, and no belief on any side that the minister is, essentially, God for a moment.

Full on Protestant confession would lead to a lot of tears and horror, lawsuits and violence. Secrets would be exposed. Families would be ripped apart.

Without the Catholic superstition and fear, Confession Catholic style would simply be placing yourself under the control of another man who could blackmail you. You would have to trust him. One of the REASONS the Catholic Church went the route of celibacy for priests is that by the 900s and 1000s, priests hearing confessions would use the secrets to blackmail female penitents into marriages. The Cluniac reforms ended that abuse. (It may well be that the abuse of boys by priests will end the celibacy rule in time, because what ails the Church in terms of sexual immorality in 2017 is quite different from what ailed it circa 980, and may require reversing the original cure.)

Catholic-style confession to Protestant pastors would be a mistake. What might work, though, would be confessions to professional Protestant psychologists. That could really help, without the other horrible dynamics that would end up creating a lot of pain for a lot of people.

Short answer: don't do it. Hire professional Protestant psychologists and have them hear confessions instead.

 

[FireDragon76]

That's some good points. I've seen my pastor's salary, I take him out to lunch sometimes... I'm not sure I'd want him to be my father confessor, honestly. It's a different relationship. But something I have wondered about because some Lutheran religious orders and guilds do request period confession out of those who join. I have wondered about being benedictine or franciscan at times. Still feeling that out, actually. I don't think I'm nearly established enough to be making that decision just yet ,though.

I'm not really sure how far the seal for the Lutheran confession goes, also. From what I heard, it's supposed to be similar to Catholics, but I don't know how that works out in practice, but I know in the Anglican Church in Australia, they've broken the seal due to political pressure on them over child sex abuse. At the time years ago I told an Anglican friend that was very, very bad news and far worse a display of Erastianism than Henry VIII.

The Episcopalians, to my knowledge, still have a firm seal on the confessions.

But you are right, once you confess to somebody your deepest secrets your relationship changes. It's very intimate, it's about like sex in that regard . It's like if you slept with a friend and wanted to pretend you could continue to be just friends, I could see it being ackward.

One thing I do remember is that I confessed to an Episcopalian priest once, and he started calling me "brother" nearly every time we met. Maybe he really did not hear many confessions, and that my particular confession carried some gravity... just a guess, perhaps.

Another priest was this short, serious, avuncular type of guy who spent alot of time in hospitals, but compassionate in his own way. I confessed to him once, and he layed hands on me for healing several times. He wasn't phased by my confession at all.

 

[Galilee63]

okay.

Tree of Life you are almost correct with one exception.

It is in Gods Holy Word where Jesus says it is through His Flesh and Blood we have 'Life' and that anyone whom does not receive Him in His Precious Flesh and Blood has no "Life" and this includes our Lord Jesus in His cleansing of our sins through His Precious Holy Blood within His Blessed Holy Sacraments of Holy Confession and Holy Communion, Holy Reconciliation included.

Priests over centuries should have (without judgement) spoken more about this to Catholics and Christians.

You see, Catholics and Christians cannot have it one way, praying and asking Jesus to cover us with His Holy Precious Blood protecting us and Blessing us and Gifting us whilst at the same time, Jesus awaits hearts and souls to turn to Him in genuine remorse/guilt and sorrow for sins to receive His cleansing of sins stained on our souls until His Precious Holy Sacred Blood is poured out upon our souls through Holy Confession and Holy Reconciliation and/or immersing our hearts and souls in Jesus Gods Holy Will, in His Holy Sacred Wounds and Precious Holy Blood asking for His Forgiveness of sins specified through prayers to Jesus Holy Spirit God The Most High always through our Lord Jesus in His Mercy to be given the "Opportunity" to receive Jesus Mercy for forgiveness of sins.

Because, no soul can ever enter Holy Divine Heaven "Stained". No soul with evil stains on it can ever go anywhere in God The Most High our Heavenly Divine Majesty's Holy Presence; hence Holy Purgatory with many souls still sitting there suffering in high degree indescribably fiery furnacy heat unbearable until:-
and our Lord Jesus has explained these things and the above to thousands of His Holy Saints/Nuns each Century and to lay Catholics for Centuries appearing to them in His Catholic Church and at home, that Holy Masses through His Catholic Church particularly on Holy Feast Days are to be regularly offered up for all of The Holy Souls in Purgatory, for souls on their way to eternal damnation, for the conversions and salvation of souls/the sick and dying. Indeed, Jesus outlined all of these things when also delivering His Holy Divine Mercy Novena with 9 groups of Souls to be prayed for by mankind and daily at 3pm at the hour of His Death bringing to Him those souls immersing them in His Ocean of Mercy, Holy Sacred Wounds and Precious Holy Blood - further Jesus explains to Holy Saint Marie Chambon and this is for Souls Salvation and to receive His Holy Blessings Gifts and Graces for those whom do not believe in Him, those of whom have hearts lukewarm, cold and incompassionate, those hearts souls whom have separated from His Church, those whom Glorify His Mercy to pray and sustain and assist them in their Salvation and continuing to carry out our Blessed Holy Trinity and Holy Mother Marys Holy Works on earth, the Faithful and Devoted Souls, All Mankind especially all Sinners, The souls of the Meek and Humble and Souls of Gods little Children, Those who do not believe in God as yet, Jesus says, and Those souls who do not know Jesus as yet and Jesus God Holy Spirits Priests and Religious whom Jesus says gave Him the most consolation out of all during His Bitter Passion saying "through them as through Channels My Mercy flows out upon Mankind".

Jesus spoke to Holy Saint John in His Holy Word saying that a soul does not have "Life" at all without His Flesh and Blood - that is received through all of our Lords Blessed Holy Sacraments in His Holy Divine Presence in His Holy Divine Catholic Church Jesus explains these things to Holy Saint Marie Chambon.

Those separated from His Church once practising Catholics are accountable to our Lord Jesus God The Most High and Holy Spirit because they were "Gifted" with God our Heavenly Fathers our Blessed Holy Trinity's our Lord Jesus' Holy Spirits with Holy Mother Mary Present and Gifting in Gods Holy Divine Mercy God The Most High has Gifted Holy Mother with our Lords Blessed Holy Divine Gifts, Blessings, Graces during lives in our Lords Real Holy Divine Presence.

Jesus is "Manifested Physically and Spiritually Divine" in every one of His Catholic Churches at the Altars in His sed Holy Sacrament Itself, in His Holy Eucharist, His Real Holy Divine Flesh and Blood Literally not figuratively or symbolically as people "think", and He is Present Holy in His Holy Divine Tabernacles and in His Precious Blood - everywhere - with so many Holy Saints and lay Catholics - here in one of our Catholic Churches pictured seen in His Holy Exposition at the Altar - I have a Holy Photo - and yet people will deny that our Lord Jesus - just like Thomas did without judgement - and certain other Disciples at first - that our Lord Jesus is Physically and Spiritually not symbolically - figuratively Present in His Holy Divinity - in His Catholic Church and everywhere Holy Present with Holy Spirit in our Hearts Souls just awaiting prayers for Holy Discernment opening our Hearts and Souls to receive our Lord Jesus into them IF we but Trust in our Lord Jesus and His Holy Divine Presence.

The saddest thing in relation to the recent Californian bushfires is that many people only had to have trust in our Lord Jesus and say "Dear Lord Jesus I am very sorry for my sins in the past, I am sorry to have hurt Your Sacred Heart with my sins and that I hurt others during my life here, here is my heart and soul and I immerse my soul in Your Sacred Wounds and Precious Holy Blood".

O my God I am very sorry that I have sinned against You and with Your help I will not sin again".

"O Eternal Father I offer Thee The Body and Blood of Thy Dearly Beloved Son our Lord Jesus Christ in Atonement for our sins and those of the whole world, Amen".

"O Eternal Father I offer Thee The Wounds of our Lord Jesus Christ to heal the Wounds of our souls Amen". And Jesus delivered from God these Holy Prayers for His Healing, for His Holy Blessings, Gifts and Graces and for Holy Divine Interaction in crises situations with Jesus God my Heavenly Father hearing and answering and intervening on every occasion over the years in His Holy Works in His Divine Will and Ways. Never doubt our Lord Jesus when

God The Most High expects and awaits hearts souls to turn to our Lord Jesus in repentance of sins or we face His wrath despite God our Heavenly Father loving us. For our soul good eternally in order for our souls not to be claimed by satan at the moment of death. Jesus explains these things in His Holy Word and to His Holy Saints. There is no escape other than through repentance of sins to Jesus in remorse and or immersing our Hearts and Souls in Jesus Ocean of Mercy, Holy Sacred Wounds and Precious Holy Blood hence Jesus delivered His Holy Divine Mercy Prayers, The Most Holy Rosary and His Holy Wound Chaplet and Five Holy Wound Chaplet requesting mankind to immerse hearts souls in His Precious Holy Sacred Blood and Holy Sacred Wounds from hearts open to Him in trust. We grow closer and closer to Jesus focussing on His Holy Sacred Cross and Holy Sacred Wounds and His Bitter Passion - if asking our Lord Jesus for them in trust most particularly.

Anyway, said enough - our Lord Jesus with my Most Holy Adored Mother have Gifted me over recent past years step by step, week by week, month by month, year by year living in Him and all I can say is that many people particularly young people are missing out on our Lords Holy Divine Blessings Gifts Graces now and eternally and families more protected if they but just turn to our Lord Jesus sorry for sins in hearts not just minds and repent sins to Him. Its not much out of ones life regularly to do this for their good and their families good and our Nations' good. God our Heavenly Father has told Holy Saints each Century that He brings His wrath upon Nations whom in great numbers ignore Jesus and repentance of sins to Him. All Nations - all of us are guilty.

If more people in more Nations turn to Jesus in repentance of sins from hearts in sorrow and in humility, then Gods wrath is curbed more greatly. It is God The Most Highs Just Hand raised then taken down by His Holy Divine Side when more hearts souls turn to our Lord Jesus sorry for sins and open hearts to Him, receive His Blessed Holy Sacred Sacraments and love adore and thank Him at home, in Church, everywhere from hearts, praying and talking to Jesus thanking Him for suffering His Bitter Passion, thanking Him for all of His Sorrows and Sufferings and saying sorry to Jesus for our sins most greatly of which Crucify Him again in front of God The Most High. He is responsible in His Love His indescribable Love for us, to try and save all of His Sheep. Not just a few of His Sheep. All of His Sheep. Our Lord has been trying for centuries to get hearts souls to repent sins to Him regularly. Many ignore Jesus and repentance of sins thinking everything is all fine and we just enter Heaven or die and don't suffer after death. Don't "think" just "Feel" from hearts in Jesus Holy Spirit God our Heavenly Divine Majesty praying and asking Holy Spirit in Holy Discernment through our Divine Lord Jesus and I always include Most Holy Mother Mary Whom in Jesus and Holy Spirit tells me my awful or shows me my awful sins each day - can be a fleeting thought about anything randomly - all accountable and all repentable.

God The Most High has said for centuries and in His Holy Word most importantly that without repentance of sins made to Him (initially it was through the Blood of His Animals offered up with prayer and sacrifice) then with our Lord Jesus in His New Covenant - it is Jesus and His Precious Holy Sacred Divine Blood through it we are cleansed and forgiven with the opportunity of this - not automatically - no. Jesus said in His Holy Word that through His Priests, His Disciples, that repentance of sins are to be made through them in Him and the sins loosed on earth are sins loosed in Heaven. Sins forgiven on earth through His Priests by Him/Jesus are forgiven in Heaven.

God created us in His Precious Holy Blood and Water.

God expects us to repent to our Lord Jesus through His Precious Holy Sacred Blood and Water asking for forgiveness in Humility, Remorse, Sorrow for our sins.

Holy Spirit in Holy Discernment through reading Gods Holy Word illuminates our hearts souls to our sins, praying to God to Jesus, Holy Spirit asking for Holy Spirit to illuminate our hearts souls minds to our sins in Holy Discernment.



"

 

[Galilee63]

Where we as Catholics/Christians have gone wrong in receiving our Lord Jesus in Unity in Him in His Holy Sacred Divine Heart is that we have thought in the past figuratively symbolically and not "Literally" in our Lord Jesus God The Most High Holy Spirit and for me Most Holy Mother Mary right there with Jesus God The Most High and Holy Spirit and Gods zillions of Holy Hosts of Angels, Holy Saints Holy Martyrs, Holy Disciples, Holy Priests and Holy Prophets and Holy Souls in Heaven all looking down upon us and awaiting our hearts souls to turn to them in Prayer, Holy Meditation of Gods Holy Word, approaching Jesus at His Holy Altars in His Real Holy Presence, receiving our Lord in His Holy Divinity in His Blessed Holy Sacraments - His Real Physical Holy Divine Flesh and Blood of which contain Himself and His Holy Heavenly Graces, Blessings and Gifts received from hearts open to Him in trust, complete trust.

Jesus said that when we approach Him, nothing tears at His Heart more than Dis-trust. Jesus explained this to Holy Saint Faustina and His other Saints.

Jesus explained everything in His Holy Word to His Holy Saints all directly concisely reflecting His Holy Word. His Real Flesh and Blood is Present with His Holy Divine Mysteries and Holy Divine Blessings after Jesus Holy Spirit God The Most High turns the Bread into His Holy Divine Heavenly Eucharist "Literally" not just symbolically figuratively representatively. No. That is what mankind has been lead to believe in many Churches for centuries.

That is not in Gods Holy Word at all.

God The Most High taught us when appearing to Moses way back and to Holy Ezra and instructing Aaron His Priest that He/God our Heavenly Father was Present Physically and Spiritually then and there in His Holy of Holies in His Temple just as Jesus right now is Present with Holy Spirit in God our Heavenly Father in every one of His Catholic Christian and Universal Churches at His Altar in His Holy of Holies Tabernacles, in His Blessed Sacrament brought out at Holy Exposition times in His Catholic Church watching our hearts awaiting us to stop being distracted and turn to Him in love adoration honour thanksgiving praying and talking to our Lord Jesus and focussing on His Sorrows and Sufferings and Bitter Passion He gave up for us.

Jesus explained few do this and it saddens His Holy Sacred Heart dreadfully and for our souls and salvation.

Every Catholic and Christian Church in the world was built by our Lord Jesus Holy Spirit God The Most High and through Most Holy Mother Mary through Gods appointed and through His Nuns/Priests/Ministers/Pastors - for hearts souls to turn up and repent sins to Jesus in His Blessed Holy Heavenly Divine Sacraments "Literally"

And millions of people missing out during their lives receiving Jesus into their hearts more deeply communicating with hearts souls and living in deep unity with our Lord Jesus now and eternally.

 

[David Kent]

Your view obviously!

Not my view, Scripture.

 

[David Kent]

okay.

Tree of Life you are almost correct with one exception.

It is in Gods Holy Word where Jesus says it is through His Flesh and Blood we have 'Life' and that anyone whom does not receive Him in His Precious Flesh and Blood has no "Life" and this includes our Lord Jesus in His cleansing of our sins through His Precious Holy Blood within His Blessed Holy Sacraments of Holy Confession and Holy Communion, Holy Reconciliation included.

Priests over centuries should have (without judgement) spoken more about this to Catholics and Christians.

You see, Catholics and Christians cannot have it one way, praying and asking Jesus to cover us with His Holy Precious Blood protecting us and Blessing us and Gifting us whilst at the same time, Jesus awaits hearts and souls to turn to Him in genuine remorse/guilt and sorrow for sins to receive His cleansing of sins stained on our souls until His Precious Holy Sacred Blood is poured out upon our souls through Holy Confession and Holy Reconciliation and/or immersing our hearts and souls in Jesus Gods Holy Will, in His Holy Sacred Wounds and Precious Holy Blood asking for His Forgiveness of sins specified through prayers to Jesus Holy Spirit God The Most High always through our Lord Jesus in His Mercy to be given the "Opportunity" to receive Jesus Mercy for forgiveness of sins.

Because, no soul can ever enter Holy Divine Heaven "Stained". No soul with evil stains on it can ever go anywhere in God The Most High our Heavenly Divine Majesty's Holy Presence; hence Holy Purgatory with many souls still sitting there suffering in high degree indescribably fiery furnacy heat unbearable until:-
and our Lord Jesus has explained these things and the above to thousands of His Holy Saints/Nuns each Century and to lay Catholics for Centuries appearing to them in His Catholic Church and at home, that Holy Masses through His Catholic Church particularly on Holy Feast Days are to be regularly offered up for all of The Holy Souls in Purgatory, for souls on their way to eternal damnation, for the conversions and salvation of souls/the sick and dying. Indeed, Jesus outlined all of these things when also delivering His Holy Divine Mercy Novena with 9 groups of Souls to be prayed for by mankind and daily at 3pm at the hour of His Death bringing to Him those souls immersing them in His Ocean of Mercy, Holy Sacred Wounds and Precious Holy Blood - further Jesus explains to Holy Saint Marie Chambon and this is for Souls Salvation and to receive His Holy Blessings Gifts and Graces for those whom do not believe in Him, those of whom have hearts lukewarm, cold and incompassionate, those hearts souls whom have separated from His Church, those whom Glorify His Mercy to pray and sustain and assist them in their Salvation and continuing to carry out our Blessed Holy Trinity and Holy Mother Marys Holy Works on earth, the Faithful and Devoted Souls, All Mankind especially all Sinners, The souls of the Meek and Humble and Souls of Gods little Children, Those who do not believe in God as yet, Jesus says, and Those souls who do not know Jesus as yet and Jesus God Holy Spirits Priests and Religious whom Jesus says gave Him the most consolation out of all during His Bitter Passion saying "through them as through Channels My Mercy flows out upon Mankind".

Jesus spoke to Holy Saint John in His Holy Word saying that a soul does not have "Life" at all without His Flesh and Blood - that is received through all of our Lords Blessed Holy Sacraments in His Holy Divine Presence in His Holy Divine Catholic Church Jesus explains these things to Holy Saint Marie Chambon.

Those separated from His Church once practising Catholics are accountable to our Lord Jesus God The Most High and Holy Spirit because they were "Gifted" with God our Heavenly Fathers our Blessed Holy Trinity's our Lord Jesus' Holy Spirits with Holy Mother Mary Present and Gifting in Gods Holy Divine Mercy God The Most High has Gifted Holy Mother with our Lords Blessed Holy Divine Gifts, Blessings, Graces during lives in our Lords Real Holy Divine Presence.

Jesus is "Manifested Physically and Spiritually Divine" in every one of His Catholic Churches at the Altars in His sed Holy Sacrament Itself, in His Holy Eucharist, His Real Holy Divine Flesh and Blood Literally not figuratively or symbolically as people "think", and He is Present Holy in His Holy Divine Tabernacles and in His Precious Blood - everywhere - with so many Holy Saints and lay Catholics - here in one of our Catholic Churches pictured seen in His Holy Exposition at the Altar - I have a Holy Photo - and yet people will deny that our Lord Jesus - just like Thomas did without judgement - and certain other Disciples at first - that our Lord Jesus is Physically and Spiritually not symbolically - figuratively Present in His Holy Divinity - in His Catholic Church and everywhere Holy Present with Holy Spirit in our Hearts Souls just awaiting prayers for Holy Discernment opening our Hearts and Souls to receive our Lord Jesus into them IF we but Trust in our Lord Jesus and His Holy Divine Presence.

The saddest thing in relation to the recent Californian bushfires is that many people only had to have trust in our Lord Jesus and say "Dear Lord Jesus I am very sorry for my sins in the past, I am sorry to have hurt Your Sacred Heart with my sins and that I hurt others during my life here, here is my heart and soul and I immerse my soul in Your Sacred Wounds and Precious Holy Blood".

O my God I am very sorry that I have sinned against You and with Your help I will not sin again".

"O Eternal Father I offer Thee The Body and Blood of Thy Dearly Beloved Son our Lord Jesus Christ in Atonement for our sins and those of the whole world, Amen".

"O Eternal Father I offer Thee The Wounds of our Lord Jesus Christ to heal the Wounds of our souls Amen". And Jesus delivered from God these Holy Prayers for His Healing, for His Holy Blessings, Gifts and Graces and for Holy Divine Interaction in crises situations with Jesus God my Heavenly Father hearing and answering and intervening on every occasion over the years in His Holy Works in His Divine Will and Ways. Never doubt our Lord Jesus when

God The Most High expects and awaits hearts souls to turn to our Lord Jesus in repentance of sins or we face His wrath despite God our Heavenly Father loving us. For our soul good eternally in order for our souls not to be claimed by satan at the moment of death. Jesus explains these things in His Holy Word and to His Holy Saints. There is no escape other than through repentance of sins to Jesus in remorse and or immersing our Hearts and Souls in Jesus Ocean of Mercy, Holy Sacred Wounds and Precious Holy Blood hence Jesus delivered His Holy Divine Mercy Prayers, The Most Holy Rosary and His Holy Wound Chaplet and Five Holy Wound Chaplet requesting mankind to immerse hearts souls in His Precious Holy Sacred Blood and Holy Sacred Wounds from hearts open to Him in trust. We grow closer and closer to Jesus focussing on His Holy Sacred Cross and Holy Sacred Wounds and His Bitter Passion - if asking our Lord Jesus for them in trust most particularly.

Anyway, said enough - our Lord Jesus with my Most Holy Adored Mother have Gifted me over recent past years step by step, week by week, month by month, year by year living in Him and all I can say is that many people particularly young people are missing out on our Lords Holy Divine Blessings Gifts Graces now and eternally and families more protected if they but just turn to our Lord Jesus sorry for sins in hearts not just minds and repent sins to Him. Its not much out of ones life regularly to do this for their good and their families good and our Nations' good. God our Heavenly Father has told Holy Saints each Century that He brings His wrath upon Nations whom in great numbers ignore Jesus and repentance of sins to Him. All Nations - all of us are guilty.

If more people in more Nations turn to Jesus in repentance of sins from hearts in sorrow and in humility, then Gods wrath is curbed more greatly. It is God The Most Highs Just Hand raised then taken down by His Holy Divine Side when more hearts souls turn to our Lord Jesus sorry for sins and open hearts to Him, receive His Blessed Holy Sacred Sacraments and love adore and thank Him at home, in Church, everywhere from hearts, praying and talking to Jesus thanking Him for suffering His Bitter Passion, thanking Him for all of His Sorrows and Sufferings and saying sorry to Jesus for our sins most greatly of which Crucify Him again in front of God The Most High. He is responsible in His Love His indescribable Love for us, to try and save all of His Sheep. Not just a few of His Sheep. All of His Sheep. Our Lord has been trying for centuries to get hearts souls to repent sins to Him regularly. Many ignore Jesus and repentance of sins thinking everything is all fine and we just enter Heaven or die and don't suffer after death. Don't "think" just "Feel" from hearts in Jesus Holy Spirit God our Heavenly Divine Majesty praying and asking Holy Spirit in Holy Discernment through our Divine Lord Jesus and I always include Most Holy Mother Mary Whom in Jesus and Holy Spirit tells me my awful or shows me my awful sins each day - can be a fleeting thought about anything randomly - all accountable and all repentable.

God The Most High has said for centuries and in His Holy Word most importantly that without repentance of sins made to Him (initially it was through the Blood of His Animals offered up with prayer and sacrifice) then with our Lord Jesus in His New Covenant - it is Jesus and His Precious Holy Sacred Divine Blood through it we are cleansed and forgiven with the opportunity of this - not automatically - no. Jesus said in His Holy Word that through His Priests, His Disciples, that repentance of sins are to be made through them in Him and the sins loosed on earth are sins loosed in Heaven. Sins forgiven on earth through His Priests by Him/Jesus are forgiven in Heaven.

God created us in His Precious Holy Blood and Water.

God expects us to repent to our Lord Jesus through His Precious Holy Sacred Blood and Water asking for forgiveness in Humility, Remorse, Sorrow for our sins.

Holy Spirit in Holy Discernment through reading Gods Holy Word illuminates our hearts souls to our sins, praying to God to Jesus, Holy Spirit asking for Holy Spirit to illuminate our hearts souls minds to our sins in Holy Discernment."

So you agree that Catholics are not Christians?

 

[Goatee]

Not my view, Scripture.

Still your view!

As a Catholic, it is such a wonderful experience having confession with a priest. One would have to experience it to understand how much it has an impact on your soul etc.

 

[Goatee]

So you agree that Catholics are not Christians?

Bit harsh that. Catholics are Christians as you well know buddy!

 

[chevyontheriver]

This sounds to me like repayment. To pay to repair the broken window is exactly that - repayment. Forgiveness is what is offered to us through Christ and it's the opposite of repayment. In forgiveness Jesus pays for our sins and there is no payment required from us.

So does Jesus fix the window?

It's actually two different things that need to be addressed. First is guilt for a wrong committed and the second is repairing the bad effects of the wrong committed. I think for the most part Protestants have compressed those two together so they cannot any longer see the distinction. Thus the idea of penance becomes a denial of the saving work of Christ. but it was never seen that way by the Fathers.