Mr./Ms. Muslim, I have a question for you.

[Deren]

Think about the options you have because there is no possible way to go back and undo what has been done in the past, hence your options are to mend ways, seek forgiveness, do good deeds openly and secretly.

But, if one's sins are not atoned for in the prescribed manner that God said that they could be, then regardless of what we do, is it really possible to be forgiven by God or do works that are pleasing to him?

Remember, The God is Most Merciful of all those who show Mercy. If the matter reaches authority then it's the responsiblity of those who are in authority to establish justice.

Indeed, God is merciful and just. But he has provided a way for sin to be atoned for, which apparently Muslims reject. Therefore, since neither you, nor any of your cohorts have been able to supply the method for how your sins are atoned for, just how merciful can you really be, and just why kind of judgment can you expect from God, if you die your sins?

 

[Deren]

Deren, Are we talking about the OT/NT Here, Or you are asking Muslims about Few Concepts On Islam ? Because It seems that Whenever we Answer you, you turn to the OT/NT.

I'm asking about a very basic belief that leads to a person being forgiven by God.

Also why do you Insist On the Term "Atonement" rather than "Repentance" Or "Forgiveness", What is the Difference ?

The difference is in the meaning of the words and which precedes what. For without atonement, there cannot be repentance. And without repentance, there cannot be forgiveness. Each term is distinct, and one cannot have one without the other. Therefore, my question is about atonement, and not repentance, nor forgiveness, for the simple reason that I am quite aware that Muslims reject the blood sacrifice of Jesus for the atonement of humanity's sins on the cross. If that is so, then what do Muslims believe will atone for their sins?

If we Look at the Outcome, It is that you want your Sins to be Forgiven, Right ? I don't Really think It matters what Term we Use.

Wrong. It does matter. And I'm not talking about forgiveness. I'm asking about that which makes forgiveness possible. And unless there is an atonement, then forgiveness is not possible. So, what do Muslims believe is the event/mechanism which brings about the atonement of sins and the eventual forgiveness of them? Muslims reject Jesus' sacrifice, and I know they don't practice Levitical law, and according to Scripture, without the shedding of blood (i.e., atonement), there is no forgiveness. Therefore, how is your sin atoned for?

 

[Bookofknowledge]

Book, while I appreciate your effort to communicate, I really don't think you understand what I'm asking. I'm not asking about testing of faith, nor worship, nor repentance, nor forgiveness. I've been asking about atonement for sin. The Jews had a sacrificial system in the OT, which according to the NT was fulfilled in the person of Jesus, that temporarily atoned for the sins of the nation. Yet, Muslims reject that Jesus died on the cross to atone for the sins of humanity, and they only seem to have a vague idea of what took place in the OT concerning Moses and the sacrificial system. Therefore, just what do Muslims ascribe to as the event to atone for their sins? If it isn't Jesus, and Muslims do not follow Levitical law, then how are their sins atoned for?

First of all neither the jews nor the christians had a system in what was revealed to Moses, which according to the what was revealed of Jesus was fulfilled in the person of Jesus diying on the cross to atone for the sins of humanity.

Second of all neither the jews nor the christians have a system in today's world which according to their holly scriptures allows a person to die in order to atone for the sins of others.

Each individual is responsible for their own deeds. I am sure you will find this in both scriptures. As a human if you choose not to punish an innocent person instead of the one who is guilty then how can you say God will allow Jesus or people of israel to sacrifice Jesus (AS) who was infact innocent?

17:15
He that seeks guidance, shall be guided to his own advantage, but he that goes astray does so to his own loss. No bearer shall bear the burden of another on the Day of Judgement. And during your worldly life, We do not inflict punishment until We send forth a Rasool to make truth distinct from falsehood.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I'm asking about a very basic belief that leads to a person being forgiven by God.
The difference is in the meaning of the words and which precedes what. For without atonement, there cannot be repentance. And without repentance, there cannot be forgiveness. Each term is distinct, and one cannot have one without the other. Therefore, my question is about atonement, and not repentance, nor forgiveness, for the simple reason that I am quite aware that Muslims reject the blood sacrifice of Jesus for the atonement of humanity's sins on the cross. If that is so, then what do Muslims believe will atone for their sins?

Wrong. It does matter. And I'm not talking about forgiveness. I'm asking about that which makes forgiveness possible. And unless there is an atonement, then forgiveness is not possible. So, what do Muslims believe is the event/mechanism which brings about the atonement of sins and the eventual forgiveness of them? Muslims reject Jesus' sacrifice, and I know they don't practice Levitical law, and according to Scripture, without the shedding of blood (i.e., atonement), there is no forgiveness. Therefore, how is your sin atoned for?

First of all neither the jews nor the christians had a system in what was revealed to Moses, which according to the what was revealed of Jesus was fulfilled in the person of Jesus diying on the cross to atone for the sins of humanity.

Second of all neither the jews nor the christians have a system in today's world which according to their holly scriptures allows a person to die in order to atone for the sins of others.

Each individual is responsible for their own deeds. I am sure you will find this in both scriptures. As a human if you choose not to punish an innocent person instead of the one who is guilty then how can you say God will allow Jesus or people of israel to sacrifice Jesus (AS) who was infact innocent?

17:15
He that seeks guidance, shall be guided to his own advantage, but he that goes astray does so to his own loss. No bearer shall bear the burden of another on the Day of Judgement. And during your worldly life, We do not inflict punishment until We send forth a Rasool to make truth distinct from falsehood.

[SIZE=+2] (Young) James 5:20 let him know that he who did turn back a sinner from the straying of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins.[/SIZE]

 

[Bookofknowledge]

But, if one's sins are not atoned for in the prescribed manner that God said that they could be, then regardless of what we do, is it really possible to be forgiven by God or do works that are pleasing to him?

yes it is possible and it is confirmed by God. Do you not know that the people of Noah were once dis-believers but they were saved by The God because they believed and mend their ways....?

Why do you think they were saved by The God? What did they do different then what was done by those who weren't saved?

Indeed, God is merciful and just. But he has provided a way for sin to be atoned for, which apparently Muslims reject. Therefore, since neither you, nor any of your cohorts have been able to supply the method for how your sins are atoned for, just how merciful can you really be, and just why kind of judgment can you expect from God, if you die your sins?

Yes The God provided a way for sin to be atoned but the way you are mentioning contradicts with the way of God and that way of God is like you said "He is Just", He will not punish a innocent or a person who is forgiven by Him.


4:108
They might be able to hide their crimes from people, but they cannot hide from Allah. He is with them even when they plot by night in words that He cannot approve. Allah encompasses all their actions.

4:109
You may plead for them in this life, but who will plead for them with Allah on the Day of Resurrection? Or who will be their defender?

4:110
If anyone does evil or wrongs his own soul and then seeks Allah's forgiveness, he will find Allah Forgiving, Merciful.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I'm asking about a very basic belief that leads to a person being forgiven by God.
The difference is in the meaning of the words and which precedes what. For without atonement, there cannot be repentance. And without repentance, there cannot be forgiveness. Each term is distinct, and one cannot have one without the other. Therefore, my question is about atonement, and not repentance, nor forgiveness, for the simple reason that I am quite aware that Muslims reject the blood sacrifice of Jesus for the atonement of humanity's sins on the cross. If that is so, then what do Muslims believe will atone for their sins?

Wrong. It does matter. And I'm not talking about forgiveness. I'm asking about that which makes forgiveness possible. And unless there is an atonement, then forgiveness is not possible. So, what do Muslims believe is the event/mechanism which brings about the atonement of sins and the eventual forgiveness of them? Muslims reject Jesus' sacrifice, and I know they don't practice Levitical law, and according to Scripture, without the shedding of blood (i.e., atonement), there is no forgiveness. Therefore, how is your sin atoned for?

yes it is possible and it is confirmed by God. Do you not know that the people of Noah were once dis-believers but they were saved by The God because they believed and mend their ways....?

Why do you think they were saved by The God? What did they do different then what was done by those who weren't saved?

Yes The God provided a way for sin to be atoned by the way you are talking about contradicts with the way of God and that way of God is like you said "He is Just", He will not punish a innocent or a person who is forgiven by Him.
4:108
They might be able to hide their crimes from people, but they cannot hide from Allah. He is with them even when they plot by night in words that He cannot approve. Allah encompasses all their actions.
4:109
You may plead for them in this life, but who will plead for them with Allah on the Day of Resurrection? Or who will be their defender?
4:110
If anyone does evil or wrongs his own soul and then seeks Allah's forgiveness, he will find Allah Forgiving, Merciful.

Umm. What about the Name of Jesus the Christ as mediator?

Btw, what percentage of muslims do you feel read the Bible? Peace.

(Young) Hebrews 9:15 And because of this, of a new covenant He is mediator, that, death having come, for redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, those called may receive the promise of the age-during inheritance,

 

[ALRAJY]

I'm asking about a very basic belief that leads to a person being forgiven by God

Sincere Repentance & Seeking Forgiveness is not Merely the matter Of words Spoken On the tongue. Rather, the Acceptance Of repentance is Subject to the Condition that:

1. The person Gives-up the Sin Straight-away.
2. He regrets what has Happened in the past.
3. He Resolves not to Go back to the thing He Has repented from.
4. He Restores People’s Rights or property if His Sin involved Wrongdoing towards Others.
5. He repents before the Agony Of death is upon Him.

This is How we View Forgiveness & Repentance. Other Concepts you are thinking Of, might Apply to Christianity Not Islam, Deal ?


Kind Regards

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I'm asking about a very basic belief that leads to a person being forgiven by God.
The difference is in the meaning of the words and which precedes what. For without atonement, there cannot be repentance. And without repentance, there cannot be forgiveness. Each term is distinct, and one cannot have one without the other. Therefore, my question is about atonement, and not repentance, nor forgiveness, for the simple reason that I am quite aware that Muslims reject the blood sacrifice of Jesus for the atonement of humanity's sins on the cross. If that is so, then what do Muslims believe will atone for their sins?

Wrong. It does matter. And I'm not talking about forgiveness. I'm asking about that which makes forgiveness possible. And unless there is an atonement, then forgiveness is not possible. So, what do Muslims believe is the event/mechanism which brings about the atonement of sins and the eventual forgiveness of them? Muslims reject Jesus' sacrifice, and I know they don't practice Levitical law, and according to Scripture, without the shedding of blood (i.e., atonement), there is no forgiveness. Therefore, how is your sin atoned for?

Sincere Repentance & Seeking Forgiveness is not Merely the matter Of words Spoken On the tongue. Rather, the Acceptance Of repentance is Subject to the Condition that:

1. The person Gives-up the Sin Straight-away.
2. He regrets what has Happened in the past.
3. He Resolves not to Go back to the thing He Has repented from.
4. He Restores People’s Rights or property if His Sin involved Wrongdoing towards Others.
5. He repents before the Agony Of death is upon Him.

This is How we View Forgiveness & Repentance. Other Concepts you are thinking Of, might Apply to Christianity Not Islam, Deal ?
Kind Regards

You believe in Christ correct? According to the Prophets in the OT, why did God send HIM? It wasn't for the christians, but the jews correct?

 

[Bookofknowledge]

Umm. What about the Name of Jesus the Christ as mediator?

Thy God is One God. Allah will call Jesus (AS) on Day of Judgement to confirm what you are saying and the Message Jesus (AS) was sent with in-case you say different then The Message which was sent through Jesus (AS).

Btw, what percentage of muslims do you feel read the Bible? Peace.

I don't know.

Remember I asked you guys - did Jesus (AS) cursed humans?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Thy God is One God. Allah will call Jesus (AS) on Day of Judgement to confirm what you are saying and the Message Jesus (AS) was sent with in-case you say different then The Message which was sent through Jesus (AS).
I don't know.
Remember I asked you guys - did Jesus (AS) cursed humans?

Well, God did curse the jews in Malachi and unless Jesus was the Moshiach sent as a "curse" to take off the "curse", then the jews are cursed, not the gentiles.

Malachi 2:1 And now, to you [is] this charge, O priests, 2 If ye hearken not, and if ye lay [it] not to heart, To give honour to My name, said Jehovah of Hosts, I have sent against you the curse, And I have cursed your blessings, Yea, I have also cursed it, Because ye are not laying [it] to heart. 3 Lo, I am pushing away before you the seed, And have scattered dung before your faces, Dung of your festivals,

(Young) Galatians 3:13 Christ did redeem us from the curse of the law, having become for us a curse, for it hath been written, `Cursed is every one who is hanging on a tree,'

 

[Deren]

First of all neither the jews nor the christians had a system in what was revealed to Moses, which according to the what was revealed of Jesus was fulfilled in the person of Jesus diying on the cross to atone for the sins of humanity.

I don't understand what you're saying here. We know that both Moses and Jesus were Jews, and we know that it was revealed to Moses, by God, the Levitical law. And within the law is the sacrificial system, part of which dealt with atonement for sin, which ultimately was fulfilled in the person of Jesus. So, I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say, but if it's what I think it is, then it is in error.

Second of all neither the jews nor the christians have a system in today's world which according to their holly scriptures allows a person to die in order to atone for the sins of others.

Again, that is not true. What started out with the sacrifices of bulls and goats in the OT for the atonement of sin was fulfilled in the NT, in the person of Jesus Christ. That is why Christians do not perform the Levitical practices found in the OT, because Jesus' sacrifice was perfect.

Each individual is responsible for their own deeds. I am sure you will find this in both scriptures. As a human if you choose not to punish an innocent person instead of the one who is guilty then how can you say God will allow Jesus or people of israel to sacrifice Jesus (AS) who was infact innocent?

It's not that I say that the innocent should die for the guilty; it's that God sent his Son, as revealed in Scripture, who says that the innocent should die for the guilty, because the guilty could not atone for their own sins. That is why I keep asking you, if you reject Jesus' sacrifice in your behalf to atone for sins, and you certainly do not ascribe to the Levitical sacrificial system to atone for the same, then just how are your sins atoned for? From what I'm gathering from you, you seem to be saying that it's up to you. But if God requires shed blood to atone for sin, as has been revealed both in the OT and the NT, then whose blood are you going to shed to atone for your sin? Yours?

 

[Deren]

yes it is possible and it is confirmed by God. Do you not know that the people of Noah were once dis-believers but they were saved by The God because they believed and mend their ways....?

We're not talking about Noah and that which preceded the giving of the Law. We're talking about atonement for sin, which according to Scripture is not possible without a blood sacrifice.

Yes The God provided a way for sin to be atoned but the way you are mentioning contradicts with the way of God and that way of God is like you said "He is Just", He will not punish a innocent or a person who is forgiven by Him.

Yet, if God is the one who prescribed the means whereby atonement is accomplished (through the shedding of innocent blood), then is God necessarily being contradictory, or is the person charging him with such merely relying upon an alternate sacrifice (ala, Cain) to try and appease God?

Leviticus 17:11 'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.'​

Hebrews 9:22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

 

[Bookofknowledge]

Well, God did curse the jews in Malachi and unless Jesus was the Moshiach sent as a "curse" to take off the "curse", then the jews are cursed, not the gentiles.

Well, I don't prefer calling names 'Jews' because I know there are believers who call themselves as Jews and Qur'aan is also very clear on distinguishing the dis-believers from believers by saying....

Some people of the book
Some people of the Israel
Some people among the Jews


I am not asking who were cursed by The God. I want to know did Jesus cursed humans?

 

[Deren]

Sincere Repentance & Seeking Forgiveness is not Merely the matter Of words Spoken On the tongue. Rather, the Acceptance Of repentance is Subject to the Condition that:

1. The person Gives-up the Sin Straight-away.
2. He regrets what has Happened in the past.
3. He Resolves not to Go back to the thing He Has repented from.
4. He Restores People’s Rights or property if His Sin involved Wrongdoing towards Others.
5. He repents before the Agony Of death is upon Him.

This is How we View Forgiveness & Repentance. Other Concepts you are thinking Of, might Apply to Christianity Not Islam, Deal ?


Kind Regards

Again, I'm not asking about forgiveness and repentance. I'm talking about atonement which leads to those things. For one cannot be forgiven, and one certainly cannot repent, unless there has been an atonement made for sins, whereby forgiveness and repentance may be experienced and enjoyed. So, what is the event or mechanism that brings about the atonement for sins, given that Muslims reject Jesus' death on the cross, as well as the Levitical sacrificial system found in the OT?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Well, God did curse the jews in Malachi and unless Jesus was the Moshiach sent as a "curse" to take off the "curse", then the jews are cursed, not the gentiles.

Malachi 2:1 And now, to you [is] this charge, O priests, 2 If ye hearken not, and if ye lay [it] not to heart, To give honour to My name, said Jehovah of Hosts, I have sent against you the curse, And I have cursed your blessings, Yea, I have also cursed it, Because ye are not laying [it] to heart. 3 Lo, I am pushing away before you the seed, And have scattered dung before your faces, Dung of your festivals,

(Young) Galatians 3:13 Christ did redeem us from the curse of the law, having become for us a curse, for it hath been written, `Cursed is every one who is hanging on a tree,'

Well, I don't prefer calling names 'Jews' because I know there are believers who call themselves as Jews and Qur'aan is also very clear on distinguishing the dis-believers from believers by saying....
Some people of the book
Some people of the Israel
Some people among the Jews


I am not asking who were cursed by The God. I want to know did Jesus cursed humans?

Why the heck would Christ want to curse the people He came to save?? The whole earth was already under the curse of Death and the Grave because of the sin of Adam and Eve..

(Young) Deuteronomy 29:27 and the anger of Jehovah burneth against that land, to bring in on it all the curses that is written in this book,

The jews were the ones who were suppose to be leading people to the One True God and they failed.

(Young) Zechariah 8:13 And it hath come to pass, As ye have been a curse among nations, O house of Judah, and house of Israel, So I save you, and ye have been a blessing, Do not fear, let your hands be strong.

 

[Deren]

I am not asking who were cursed by The God. I want to know did Jesus cursed humans?

You seem to keep wanting to distinguish God from Jesus, when in fact, there is no distinction, particularly when dealing with sin, who atoned for it, and who is capable of forgiving it. The fact of the matter is, Jesus did not come to curse anyone, because everyone was already under the curse of sin. Jesus, on the other hand, came to seek and to save that which was lost (which is everyone), and by willingly offering himself as a blood sacrifice to atone for the sins of humankind, people could be forgiven of their sins by merely trusting in him. Conversely, though, those rejecting Jesus' sacrifice, or denying what he came to do, are left to find another method or means to atone for sin, as Islam advocates. Therefore, once again, since you reject Jesus' atonement for sin, through his shed blood, what or how are you going to have your sins atoned for? Are you going to shed your own blood?

Hebrews 9:22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Acts 20:28 "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

 

[Bookofknowledge]

You seem to keep wanting to distinguish God from Jesus, when in fact, there is no distinction

5:72
Certainly they have disbelieved who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Maryam (Mary)." While Christ himself said: "O children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Rabb and your Rabb." Whoever commits shirk (joins partners with Allah), Allah will deny him the paradise, and the hellfire will be his home. There will be no helper for the wrongdoers.

5:73
Certainly they are unbelievers who say: "Allah is one of three in a Trinity." There is no god except One Allah. If they do not stop saying what they say, a painful punishment will befall the disbelievers among them.

5:74
Will they not then turn to Allah and seek His forgiveness? Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

 

[ALRAJY]

Again, I'm not asking about forgiveness and repentance. I'm talking about atonement which leads to those things. For one cannot be forgiven, and one certainly cannot repent, unless there has been an atonement made for Sins

(AL-EKHLAS 112:1-4)
"Say: He is Allah, the One! Allah, the Eternally Besought Of ALL! He Begetteth not nor was Begotten. And there is None Comparable Unto Him"​

Believing In the Conditions Mentioned In the Sura Above, Such that Whatever you do, Prayer, Charity, etc, Won't Be accepted, and In the Day Of Judgement, It will be Turned into Plain Dust, Unless you Believe this Message. After Believing in the Message Of the Prophets, ALLAH ALmighty will Accept Deeds & Actions From you.


Kind Regards

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

It's not that I say that the innocent should die for the guilty; it's that God sent his Son, as revealed in Scripture, who says that the innocent should die for the guilty, because the guilty could not atone for their own sins. That is why I keep asking you, if you reject Jesus' sacrifice in your behalf to atone for sins, and you certainly do not ascribe to the Levitical sacrificial system to atone for the same, then just how are your sins atoned for? From what I'm gathering from you, you seem to be saying that it's up to you. But if God requires shed blood to atone for sin, as has been revealed both in the OT and the NT, then whose blood are you going to shed to atone for your sin? Yours?


You seem to keep wanting to distinguish God from Jesus, when in fact, there is no distinction, particularly when dealing with sin, who atoned for it, and who is capable of forgiving it. The fact of the matter is, Jesus did not come to curse anyone, because everyone was already under the curse of sin. Jesus, on the other hand, came to seek and to save that which was lost (which is everyone), and by willingly offering himself as a blood sacrifice to atone for the sins of humankind, people could be forgiven of their sins by merely trusting in him. Conversely, though, those rejecting Jesus' sacrifice, or denying what he came to do, are left to find another method or means to atone for sin, as Islam advocates. Therefore, once again, since you reject Jesus' atonement for sin, through his shed blood, what or how are you going to have your sins atoned for? Are you going to shed your own blood?

Hebrews 9:22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Acts 20:28 "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

(AL-EKHLAS 112:1-4)
"Say: He is Allah, the One! Allah, the Eternally Besought Of ALL! He Begetteth not nor was Begotten. And there is None Comparable Unto Him"​

Believing In the Conditions Mentioned In the Sura Above, Such that Whatever you do, Prayer, Charity, etc, Won't Be accepted, and In the Day Of Judgement, It will be Turned into Plain Dust, Unless you Believe this Message. After Believing in the Message Of the Prophets, ALLAH ALmighty will Accept Deeds & Actions From you.
Kind Regards

If you don't call on the name of Jesus, according to the Bible, you are not saved. You believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob but yet you do not believe Jesus is the One sent to save the world from the Death and the Grave.

Hosea 13:14 "I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death. O Death, I will be your plagues! O Grave, I will be your destruction! Pity is hidden from My eyes.


(Young) Revelation 13:8 And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world;

 

[Deren]

(AL-EKHLAS 112:1-4)

"Say: He is Allah, the One! Allah, the Eternally Besought Of ALL! He Begetteth not nor was Begotten. And there is None Comparable Unto Him"​

Believing In the Conditions Mentioned In the Sura Above, Such that Whatever you do, Prayer, Charity, etc, Won't Be accepted, and In the Day Of Judgement, It will be Turned into Plain Dust, Unless you Believe this Message. After Believing in the Message Of the Prophets, ALLAH ALmighty will Accept Deeds & Actions From you.


Kind Regards

AL, on what basis is there to believe if atonement for sins has not occurred?