Mr./Ms. Muslim, I have a question for you.

[LittleLambofJesus]

I believe It is

Another problem with the Koran is it keeps the jewish religion from accepting that Christ was their Moshiach and if He wasn't, then they are awaiting on someone that has already come and is only coming back in a blaze of Glory at the Time of the End in Danile 12.

Jeremiah 4:13 Lo, as clouds he cometh up, And as a hurricane his chariots, Lighter than eagles have been his horses, Woe to us, for we have been spoiled. 14 Wash from evil thy heart, O Jerusalem, That thou mayest be saved, Till when dost thou lodge in thy heart Thoughts of thy strength? 15 For a voice is declaring from Dan, And sounding sorrow from mount Ephraim. 16 Make ye mention to the nations, Lo, sound ye to Jerusalem: `Besiegers are coming from the land afar off, And they give forth against cities of Judah their voice.


http://www.christianforums.com/t2910729-what-happened-to-the-jews-messiah.html

 

[Deren]

Same Here You Have the OT, and We Have The Holy Qura'an Which Testifies that Without Believing In the Only One Creator Of Heavens & Earth, that:

1. He is Eternally Besought Of all
2. He begetteth not nor was begotten.
3. There is none Comparable Unto Him.

Then, there Is No Atonement Of Sins

AL, belief in a Creator has nothing to do with answering the question that I've been asking you all along. For if there is no atonement as prescribed through the shedding of blood, as Muslims apparently believe, then it doesn't matter what one believes about a Creator after that, because that person is still under the curse of sin. So once again, what method of atonement does the Muslim ascribe to if Jesus didn't shed his blood to atone for the sins of humanity, and the Muslim doesn't live by the Levitical code found in the OT which speaks to the subject of blood atonement?

 

[Deren]

Ok deren, question for you.

Does blood go to heaven or does it fall to the ground?

What does your question have to do with the subject of the OP?

 

[seed757]

What does your question have to do with the subject of the OP?

Well since you insist on making the claim that God has got to have blood to appease Him, and you apparently did not read the link that I provided for an explanation of the role of blood in atonement(which just in case if you missed it the first time http://www.messiahtruth.com/atone.html) from your wailing of no remission of sin without blood rule, and also I will assume that you believe as I that God "resides" in heaven, I'm wondering if this blood, that God so desperately needs, does not spill to the ground, and returns to the earth from wence it came, then how does it get to God in Heaven?

Hope you can follow that. A little long winded.

 

[warghaha]

AL, belief in a Creator has nothing to do with answering the question that I've been asking you all along. For if there is no atonement as prescribed through the shedding of blood, as Muslims apparently believe, then it doesn't matter what one believes about a Creator after that, because that person is still under the curse of sin. So once again, what method of atonement does the Muslim ascribe to if Jesus didn't shed his blood to atone for the sins of humanity, and the Muslim doesn't live by the Levitical code found in the OT which speaks to the subject of blood atonement?

I see that my brothers had supplied the suitable verses. So, can I invite you to ponder those verses together? And at the meantime, I'll try to explain this thing with my own word(with broken English of course :o).

Actually, you've heard it before, I guess. (from this forum or from anywhere else).

All we need to do is to ask for Allah's forgiveness and struggle to not do that again. Alllah is Merciful and Forgiving. He's also All-Knowing. He knows whether the repenter is truly honest or not. The atonement is all within ourselves. Our desire, our struggle, our motivation etc not to do the same sin again. And Allah knows best what's in our heart.

And if we had sinned with other people (e.g: insult someone), then we need to ask both forgiveness from Allah's and the one that we do wrong. It's not just to ask for Allah's forgiveness in this matter.

Salaam.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

It's not that I say that the innocent should die for the guilty; it's that God sent his Son, as revealed in Scripture, who says that the innocent should die for the guilty, because the guilty could not atone for their own sins. That is why I keep asking you, if you reject Jesus' sacrifice in your behalf to atone for sins, and you certainly do not ascribe to the Levitical sacrificial system to atone for the same, then just how are your sins atoned for? From what I'm gathering from you, you seem to be saying that it's up to you. But if God requires shed blood to atone for sin, as has been revealed both in the OT and the NT, then whose blood are you going to shed to atone for your sin? Yours?


You seem to keep wanting to distinguish God from Jesus, when in fact, there is no distinction, particularly when dealing with sin, who atoned for it, and who is capable of forgiving it. The fact of the matter is, Jesus did not come to curse anyone, because everyone was already under the curse of sin. Jesus, on the other hand, came to seek and to save that which was lost (which is everyone), and by willingly offering himself as a blood sacrifice to atone for the sins of humankind, people could be forgiven of their sins by merely trusting in him. Conversely, though, those rejecting Jesus' sacrifice, or denying what he came to do, are left to find another method or means to atone for sin, as Islam advocates. Therefore, once again, since you reject Jesus' atonement for sin, through his shed blood, what or how are you going to have your sins atoned for? Are you going to shed your own blood?

Hebrews 9:22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Acts 20:28 "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

All we need to do is to ask for Allah's forgiveness and struggle to not do that again. Alllah is Merciful and Forgiving. He's also All-Knowing. He knows whether the repenter is truly honest or not. The atonement is all within ourselves. Our desire, our struggle, our motivation etc not to do the same sin again. And Allah knows best what's in our heart.

And if we had sinned with other people (e.g: insult someone), then we need to ask both forgiveness from Allah's and the one that we do wrong. It's not just to ask for Allah's forgiveness in this matter.

Salaam.

Another words, steer others away from the Only Name under heaven on which one can be saved. Just make sure you tell those that are coverting to Islam who Jesus was and what He accomplished.

(Young) John 5:39 `Ye search the Writings, because ye think in them to have life age-during, and these are they that are testifying concerning Me;

(Young) Mark 9:7 And there came a cloud overshadowing them, and there came a Voice out of the cloud, saying, `This is My Son--the Beloved, hear ye him!!!!;'

(Young) John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith to him, `Him of whom Moses wrote in the Law, and the prophets, we have found, Jesus the son of Joseph, who [is] from Nazareth;'

(Young) John 5:39 `Ye search the Writings, because ye think in them to have life age-during, and these are they that are testifying concerning Me;

(Young) John 14:6 Jesus saith to him, `I am the way, and the truth, and the life, no one doth come unto the Father, if not through me;

So your Koran is deceiving others by saying Christ is not the mediator between God and man. Your Koran also lies about Christ being crucified and I guess you get help from the jewish religion on that since they are still awaiting on their own Moshiach.
Didn't muhammad have relations with jewish women btw?

 

[elijah115]

seed,

Heaven is not a corporeal or physical place or above your head

 

[Deren]

Well since you insist on making the claim that God has got to have blood to appease Him, and you apparently did not read the link that I provided for an explanation of the role of blood in atonement from your wailing of no remission of sin without blood rule, and also I will assume that you believe as I that God "resides" in heaven, I'm wondering if this blood, that God so desperately needs, does not spill to the ground, and returns to the earth from wence it came, then how does it get to God in Heaven?

First of all, I'm not the one making the claim. The Bible reveals such, as was evidenced in the two Scriptures quoted, with one coming from the OT (Lev. 5:11-ff.) and the other the NT (Heb. 9:22). Second, God does not desparately need anything. He has required, though, that blood be shed for the atonement sin, because life is in the blood, and "it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement" (Lev. 17:11). Third, Jesus' blood, as the sacrificial blood of bulls and goats in the OT, was spilled on the earth, given that the sacrifice was for humankind who lives on the earth. So, to ask how it gets to heaven doesn't make any sense.

Hope you can follow that. A little long winded.

Well, I appreciate the explanation. Hopefully mine will suffice your curiosity.

 

[warghaha]

Another words, steer others away from the Only Name under heaven on which one can be saved. Just make sure you tell those that are coverting to Islam who Jesus was and what He accomplished.

Don't get me wrong, brother.

Muslims have the right to explain what they believe. And other religion's believers are also have their rights to explain what are theirs. I'm explaining what we, as Muslims believe. That's all.

And I'll not and I'm not trying to steer other away from Jesus. God knows what am I trying to say in that post. I hope you can understand my intention.

For us, Allah is our saviour. He's the Saviour to all mankind. And Jesus, peace be upon him, is one of His righteous man that guide people to their salvations. That's the Muslims belief. I hope you'll not get offended by that.

Salaam.

 

[Deren]

I see that my brothers had supplied the suitable verses. So, can I invite you to ponder those verses together?

In short, no, because the only way they would be suitable is if they actually answered the question. And so far what has been provided are citations dealing with everything but atonement.

And at the meantime, I'll try to explain this thing with my own word(with broken English of course :o).

Please give it a try. But just remember, I'm asking about atonement, and nothing else. Okay?

Actually, you've heard it before, I guess. (from this forum or from anywhere else).

Heard what?

The atonement is all within ourselves.

Really? So, just what blood offering are you going to offer of yourself that will appease the righteousness and holiness of God, given that you are an imperfect sinner, just like everyone else?

And if we had sinned with other people (e.g: insult someone), then we need to ask both forgiveness from Allah's and the one that we do wrong. It's not just to ask for Allah's forgiveness in this matter.

But once again, if this atonement that you spoke about above is flawed, because of an inherent sin nature, then just what can you offer to God that will lead to your forgiveness?

 

[seed757]

seed,

Heaven is not a corporeal or physical place or above your head

My point exactly. Since heaven is incorporeal and immaterial, how is it that phyical blood reaches God?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Don't get me wrong, brother.

Muslims have the right to explain what they believe. And other religion's believers are also have their rights to explain what are theirs. I'm explaining what we, as Muslims believe. That's all.

And I'll not and I'm not trying to steer other away from Jesus. God knows what am I trying to say in that post. I hope you can understand my intention.

For us, Allah is our saviour. He's the Saviour to all mankind. And Jesus, peace be upon him, is one of His righteous man. That's the Muslims belief. I hope you'll not get offended by that.

Salaam.

That is all Jesus was???

(Young) John 5:39 `Ye search the Writings, because ye think in them to have life age-during, and these are they that are testifying concerning Me;

(Young) Mark 9:7 And there came a cloud overshadowing them, and there came a Voice out of the cloud, saying, `This is My Son--the Beloved, hear ye him!!!!;'

(Young) John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith to him, `Him of whom Moses wrote in the Law, and the prophets, we have found, Jesus the son of Joseph, who [is] from Nazareth;'

(Young) John 14:6 Jesus saith to him, `I am the way, and the truth, and the life, no one doth come unto the Father, if not through me;

 

[elijah115]

And to add to what Deren said,

the blood is sprinkled on the unclean not the clean, to make the unclean clean

Lastly, the current jewish religion isn't the same faith that was mediated by Moses. Concerning their intepretation it was prophecied:

" `Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
be ever seeing, but never perceiving.'

ISA 6:10 Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed."

and


HOS 4:6 my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge.

"Because you have rejected knowledge,
I also reject you as my priests;
because you have ignored the law of your God,
I also will ignore your children.

HOS 4:7 The more the priests increased,
the more they sinned against me;
they exchanged their Glory for something disgraceful.

and


ISA 9:16 Those who guide this people mislead them,
and those who are guided are led astray.

which is why Paul wrote about them in 2 Cor 3:15-17 saying:

15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom

 

[Deren]

For us, Allah is our saviour. He's the Saviour to all mankind. And Jesus, peace be upon him, is one of His righteous man. That's the Muslims belief. I hope you'll not get offended by that.

So, when Scripture tells us that God shed his blood to purchase his church (Acts 20:28), what is Luke referring to if it isn't Jesus' atoning for the sins of humankind? And since the Muslim rejects such a concept, what does Islam offer as a viable substitute for the shedding of blood to atone for sins? From the previous post you said that the atonement came from individuals such as yourself. But, is that really a suitable alternative, given the tainted nature of who you are as a human being? Do you not think that God requires something much more perfect, given that he is perfect?

 

[seed757]

But once again, if this atonement that you spoke about above is flawed, because of an inherent sin nature, then just what can you offer to God that will lead to your forgiveness?

You do realize, as far as Muslims go, there is no such thing as original sin, right?

 

[Deren]

My point exactly. Since heaven is incorporeal and immaterial, how is it that phyical blood reaches God?

No one said anything about physical blood reaching God. What was quoted is that God requires the shedding of blood to atone for the sins of humankind.

 

[Deren]

And to add to what Deren said,

the blood is sprinkled on the unclean not the clean, to make the unclean clean

Lastly, the current jewish religion isn't the same faith that was mediated by Moses. Concerning their intepretation it was prophecied:

" `Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
be ever seeing, but never perceiving.'

ISA 6:10 Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed."

and


HOS 4:6 my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge.

"Because you have rejected knowledge,
I also reject you as my priests;
because you have ignored the law of your God,
I also will ignore your children.

HOS 4:7 The more the priests increased,
the more they sinned against me;
they exchanged their Glory for something disgraceful.

and


ISA 9:16 Those who guide this people mislead them,
and those who are guided are led astray.

which is why Paul wrote about them in 2 Cor 3:15-17 saying:

15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom

 

[Deren]

You do realize, as far as Muslims go, there is no such thing as original sin, right?

Honestly, it doesn't matter whether or not they believe in original sin or not. Everyone is a sinner, and unless atonement is made for his/her sin, then forgiveness, repentance, restoration, etc., are not possible. So, we're back to the atonement question.

 

[seed757]

No one said anything about physical blood reaching God. What was quoted is that God requires the shedding of blood to atone for the sins of humankind.

So is this shed blood not physical blood? What other type of blood is there?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Honestly, it doesn't matter whether or not they believe in original sin or not. Everyone is a sinner, and unless atonement is made for his/her sin, then forgiveness, repentance, restoration, etc., are not possible. So, we're back to the atonement question.

gene 3:17 And to the man He said, `Because thou hast hearkened to the voice of thy wife, and dost eat of the tree concerning which I have charged thee, saying, Thou dost not eat of it, cursed [is] the ground on thine account; in sorrow thou dost eat of it all days of thy life, 18 and thorn and bramble it doth bring forth to thee, and thou hast eaten the herb of the field; 19 by the sweat of thy face thou dost eat bread till thy return unto the ground, for out of it hast thou been taken, for dust thou [art], and unto dust thou turnest back.'

1 corin 15:47 The first man [is] out of the earth, earthy; the second man [is] the Lord out of heaven; 48 as [is] the earthy, such [are] also the earthy; and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] also the heavenly; 49 and, according as we did bear the image of the earthy, we shall bear also the image of the heavenly. 50 And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood the reign of God is not able to inherit, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption;