Mr./Ms. Muslim, I have a question for you.

[Deren]

Is Jesus still flesh and bones in "heaven" or did He obtain a Glorified body?

Luke 24:38 And he said to them, `Why are ye troubled? and wherefore do reasonings come up in your hearts? 39 see my hands and my feet, that I am he; handle me and see, because a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me having.'

(Young) John 20:27 then he saith to Thomas, `Bring thy finger hither, and see my hands, and bring thy hand, and put [it] to my side, and become not unbelieving, but believing.'

To answer your question, yes; Jesus obtained a glorified body, but retained his physicality when he entered heaven. It is one of the reasons why "two men in white clothing" could say upon Jesus ascension into heaven, "This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven" (Acts 1:10-11), meaning that he will descend physically, and not as a spirit. And it is also another reason why Jesus is able to relate and intervene on behalf of humanity as mediator between man and God, because he is both man and God.

 

[Deren]

MT 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.


20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

PS 24:3 Who may ascend the hill of the LORD?
Who may stand in his holy place?

PS 24:4 He who has clean hands and a pure heart,

And may I add once again, "And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness" (Heb. 9:22).

1 John 1:7 but if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.​

 

[ALRAJY]

Now that you have Known the Islamic Concept Of Repentacne & Forgivness, Let me ask you For your Point Of view. Do you Consider It a GODLY Justification For Someon to Hold Responsible For the Sins Of Others ? Or to Pay the Debts For things He Didn't Commit. For example, If I cross the Red Traffic Light, Would It be Justified For a Police man to Set a Fine Of $100 On my Momther or Sister, Although I am the One who Committed that Mistake ?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

In Islam, blood offering is not the way to appease God. In fact, nothing can be compared with the blessing He bestowed upon us. But He knows our sincerity within us. To do our best, to struggle our best. And God knows best.

And may I add once again, "And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness" (Heb. 9:22).

1 John 1:7 but if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.​

Maybe we should be asking the jews and Israelites about that as He came to them first as prophecied in the OT. And because of God's good grace, we also obtain Life Eternal upon belief unto His Name. Peace.

http://www.christianforums.com/t2917837-question-for-muslims-on-son-of-god.html

(Young) Mark 9:7 And there came a cloud overshadowing them, and there came a Voice out of the cloud, saying, `This is My Son--the Beloved, hear ye him!!!!;'

Hebrew 12:22 But, ye came to Mount Zion, and to a city of the living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of messengers, 23 to the company and assembly of the first-born in heaven enrolled, and to God the judge of all, and to spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24 and to a mediator of a New Covenant--Jesus, and to blood of sprinkling, speaking better things than that of Abel! 25 See, may ye not refuse him who is speaking, for if those did not escape who refused him who upon earth was divinely speaking--much less we who do turn away from him who [speaketh] from heaven, 26 whose voice the earth shook then, and now hath he promised, saying, `Yet once--I shake not only the earth, but also the heaven;'

 

[warghaha]

Luke is not talking about God's mercy, though. He's talking about Jesus Christ, who shed his blood, as God, for the redemption of humanity (i.e., the church). Yet, because is merciful that he acted to atone for humanity's sin, and that was done through what action?

Actually, that(in post #126) was to address for this question of yours :

And since the Muslim rejects such a concept, what does Islam offer as a viable substitute for the shedding of blood to atone for sins?

Thus my answer: Allah's merciness. It's not a substitute tho.

Then from what you're saying, everything that God has revealed, starting way back in the OT with the Levitical law to the coming and fulfillment of the law in the person of Jesus was a ruse? Did God change his mind somewhere along the way? If so, where and when?

There's so much views on the prophesy of Jesus coming to this world to redeem all humankind with his blood. I think there's already a thread for this. What I can say here is; Jews, Christians and Muslims are differ on this matter.

And once again, if God knows our intention and work, do you not think he knows all about our feeble attempts at attaining righteousness?

Of course. He knows our limit. But don't despair. He's the Most-Merciful too.

If so, then don't you think that God just might intervene on humanity's behalf in a much more merciful and loving way that to leave humans to their own devices to try and work out their atonement, forgiveness, and salvation by a means that is much more secure than their tainted works?

I think, here is where we're differ.
If I've a son who sincerely loves to draw and I'm a good artist, I'll teach him how to draw. But I'll not gonna draw for him just to make sure his drawing is good as mine. Because I know what is his limit(because of his young age maybe), I'll be glad even though he draw a picture of me which does not looks like me.

God knows best what's our limit and had sent us His guidance.

Yet, humans are not perfect, and if they are going to receive God's forgiveness, then there is going to have to be sacrificial atonement for them before that forgiveness takes place. It is a requirement that is specifically stated in Scripture.

I believe that's what you meant with Levitical law earlier in your post, right?
Since now I will have to deal with the Bible, I hope Christians here will not quickly call me a liar that trying to teach them about their own Bible. It's not my intention.

In Hebrew 9:22, it wrote:

22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

But in the OT, blood shedding is not the only way to archieve God's forgiveness. Even the fine flour can be used as sin offering(Leviticus 5:11). Or incense(Numbers 16:46-47), or through charity(Exodus 30:15-16 & Numbers 31:50). In fact, the sin offering is for the unintentionall sins only.

Even so, God is not looking for sacrifices to forgive us. Repentance, sincerity, obedient, etc is more important.

Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

Proverb 16:6 Through love and faithfulness sin is atoned for; through the fear of the LORD a man avoids evil.

Proverbs 21:3 To do what is right and just is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

Daniel didn't advice King Nebuchadnezzar to do any sacrificial atonement, but to repent and be good.

Daniel 4:27 Therefore, O king, be pleased to accept my advice: Renounce your sins by doing what is right, and your wickedness by being kind to the oppressed. It may be that then your prosperity will continue.

No, he did not create us imperfect. After Adam and Eve were created everything was declared "Very Good," not "Marginally Okay, with a taint of sin here and there." Instead, what took place is that Adam and Eve rebelled and then passed on their sin nature to everyone else subsequent to them, which is why if anyone now wishes to come into God's presence, there must be an atoning sacrifice performed in their behalf. And anything that is less than perfect will not appease the righteousness of God.

When Adam repented, God accepted his repentance and forgave him without asking him any sacrificial atonemnt(Muslims believe God heard his sincere repentance and forgave him).

Again, our "best" is tainted with sin, meaning that it falls far short of God's standards of holiness and righteousness.

Why would God wants us to be the same standard as He is? He will always be holiest.

Therefore, unless something much more substantial than "our best" represents us before God, to not only atone for our sins, but to offer forgiveness and redemption from them, then we will die our sins and receive the wages for them, which is death.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Yes. We have a different view on this.

Salaam.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

When Adam repented, God accepted his repentance and forgave him without asking him any sacrificial atonemnt(Muslims believe God heard his sincere repentance and forgave him).

You must be talking about leviticus?

http://www.nsbible.org/sits_ts/v0s4.htm

THE GREAT "DAY OF ATONEMENT"
`LEVITICUS 16:3-33`

The Order of the Type and Its Antitypical Significations--The Bullock-- The Priest--The Entrance of the Holies with the Blood--The Incense, the Sweet Odor and the Stench--Entering the Most Holy--The Lord's Goat--The Scapegoat--The Blessing of the People.

 

[Deren]

Actually, that(in post #126) was to address for this question of yours :

And since the Muslim rejects such a concept, what does Islam offer as a viable substitute for the shedding of blood to atone for sins?

Thus my answer: Allah's merciness. It's not a substitute tho.

So, if mercy is not a substitute, then what is?

There's so much views on the prophesy of Jesus coming to this world to redeem all humankind with his blood. I think there's already a thread for this. What I can say here is; Jews, Christians and Muslims are differ on this matter.

Well, that's quite obvious, which is why I'm asking my question. So, once again, if the Muslim does not accept the blood sacrifice of Jesus to atone for sin, then what sacrifice do you postulate that will?

I think, here is where we're differ.
If I've a son who sincerely loves to draw and I'm a good artist, I'll teach him how to draw. But I'll not gonna draw for him just to make sure his drawing is good as mine. Because I know what is his limit(because of his young age maybe), I'll be glad even though he draw a picture of me which does not looks like me.

Yet, if your son doesn't know how to draw at all, because he's totally incapable, yet he will be able to draw, if you'll merely intervene in his behalf, don't you think that is going to be more of display of love, mercy, and compassion than leaving it up to him?

God knows best what's our limit and had sent us His guidance.

And just who is going to be a better guide than the Father?

I believe that's what you meant with Levitical law earlier in your post, right?
Since now I will have to deal with the Bible, I hope Christians here will not quickly call me a liar that trying to teach them about their own Bible. It's not my intention.

In Hebrew 9:22, it wrote:

22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

But in the OT, blood shedding is not the only way to archieve God's forgiveness. Even the fine flour can be used as sin offering(Leviticus 5:11). Or incense(Numbers 16:46-47), or through charity(Exodus 30:15-16 & Numbers 31:50). In fact, the sin offering is for the unintentionall sins only.

Even so, God is not looking for sacrifices to forgive us.

Actually, what you've referenced above are alternatives based on means. They weren't equal in the sense of being the primary sacrifices, for God still required blood to be shed to atone for sins. And ultimately this requirement seen in the OT is a type of the what was to come in the person of Jesus, who would finalize the blood sacrifice requirement by offering himself as the perfect sacrifice. And yes, God is looking to that blood sacrifice in order to forgive us, otherwise, there is no forgiveness at all, as you quoted above in Heb. 9:22.

Repentance, sincerity, obedient, etc is more important.

Yet, none are possible without the blood.

Why would God wants us to be the same standard as He is? He will always be holiest.

If God didn't want us to be the same standard, then why would he command his people to "Be ye holy, for I am holy?"

Yes. We have a different view on this.

Are you saying that sin reaps something other than death? If so, what is it?

 

[Deren]

.

 

[warghaha]

So, if mercy is not a substitute, then what is?

God's Mercy is all from the beginning.

Well, that's quite obvious, which is why I'm asking my question. So, once again, if the Muslim does not accept the blood sacrifice of Jesus to atone for sin, then what sacrifice do you postulate that will?

Sacrifice our evil lust, desires, etc to do what God had commanded. Spiritual sacrifice. IOW, blood shedding for the atonement of sins is not an essential part in Islam.

Yet, if your son doesn't know how to draw at all, because he's totally incapable, yet he will be able to draw, if you'll merely intervene in his behalf, don't you think that is going to be more of display of love, mercy, and compassion than leaving it up to him?

That will spoil the child I'm afraid. You love him, you guide him. Not by do that for him.

And just who is going to be a better guide than the Father?

Yes. Of course.

Actually, what you've referenced above are alternatives based on means. They weren't equal in the sense of being the primary sacrifices, for God still required blood to be shed to atone for sins. And ultimately this requirement seen in the OT is a type of the what was to come in the person of Jesus, who would finalize the blood sacrifice requirement by offering himself as the perfect sacrifice. And yes, God is looking to that blood sacrifice in order to forgive us, otherwise, there is no forgiveness at all, as you quoted above in Heb. 9:22.

Then why in Isaiah 55:7, Proverbs 16:6, etc it is not talking about blood shedding? Daniel's advice to King Nebuchadnezzar is contain no blood shedding too.

From my experience here, Christians didn't like when others -especially Muslims- to quote the Bible and say something about it. So I'm quite reluctant to do that.

So, here's a link I found regarding this matter. BTW, it's from the Jewish link, not Muslims.

>> http://www.uhcg.org/HoI/blood-not-req.html <<

Yet, none are possible without the blood.

We're differ here.

If God didn't want us to be the same standard, then why would he command his people to "Be ye holy, for I am holy?"

Yet, we'll never be the same level of holiness of God. We might be holy, but He will always the holiest.

Are you saying that sin reaps something other than death? If so, what is it?

I was talking baout this comment:
"Therefore, unless something much more substantial than "our best" represents us before God, to not only atone for our sins, but to offer forgiveness and redemption from them, then we will die our sins and receive the wages for them, which is death."

We're differ here. Muslims does not believe blood shedding is the key to get God's forgiveness.

Salaam

 

[Deren]

God's Mercy is all from the beginning.

And why should God be merciful apart from the shedding of blood to atone for sin?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I was talking baout this comment:
"Therefore, unless something much more substantial than "our best" represents us before God, to not only atone for our sins, but to offer forgiveness and redemption from them, then we will die our sins and receive the wages for them, which is death."

We're differ here. Muslims does not believe blood shedding is the key to get God's forgiveness.

That is because the muslims do not read the Bible and what OC Israel of the flesh represented. Did Jesus just come to redeem Israel from Death

Hosea 13:14 "I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death. O Death, I will be your plagues! O Grave, I will be your destruction! Pity is hidden from My eyes.

Isaiah 28:14 Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scornful men, Who rule this people who [are] in Jerusalem, 15 Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death, And with Sheol we are in agreement...... 18 Your covenant with death will be atoned/covered over, And your agreement with Sheol will not stand; When the overflowing scourge passes through, Then you will be trampled down by it.

(Young) Acts 1:6 They, therefore, indeed, having come together, were questioning him, saying, `Lord, dost thou at this time restore the reign to Israel?'