Mr./Ms. Muslim, I have a question for you.

[Deren]

11:90
seek forgiveness of your Rabb and turn to Him in repentance; for my Rabb is indeed Merciful, Affectionate."

----------------------------------

3:135
who, if they commit an indecency or wrong their own souls, earnestly remember Allah and seek forgiveness for their sins; for no one can forgive sins except Allah, and those who do not knowingly persist in something wrong which they have done.

3:136
Such people will be rewarded with forgiveness from their Rabb plus gardens beneath which the rivers flow, to live therein forever. How excellent is the reward for such laborers!

----------------------------------

11:3
You should seek forgiveness of your Rabb and turn to Him in repentance; He will grant you good provisions till an appointed term, and bestow His grace on everyone who has merit! But if you turn away (pay no heed), I fear for you the punishment of a Great Day.

----------------------------------

11:52
And O my people! Seek forgiveness of your Rabb and turn to Him in repentance. He will send you from the sky abundant rain and He will add strength to your strength. So do not turn away like criminals."

----------------------------------

11:61
To the Thamud people, We sent their brother Saleh. He said: "O my people! Worship Allah, you have no god but Him. It is He Who created you from the Earth and made it a dwelling place for you. So seek forgiveness from Him and turn to Him in repentance. Surely my Rabb is very close, ready to answer."




Why Jesus was sent? Read my friend and ponder the last verse says "We do not inflict punishment until We send forth a Rasool to make truth distinct from falsehood."

The question is not about forgiveness. The question is about atoning for sin.

 

[Deren]

Muslims don't understand the old testament, or better yet know about it Deren. Atonement to them is as follows:


-If the sin is too great, either you are forgiven freely if you're repentant, or punished if unrepentant and the victim wants revenge

-If the sin is not too great, you can atone either by freeing a slave, making financial compensation, or praying and fasting if you are too poor.

Thanks elijah for the explanation. In your last comments one has to wonder what the difference is between Islamic atonement and Cain's offering, meaning that without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness.

 

[Deren]

Yes Deren,

A Muslim’s Faith may become Weak & He may be Overwhelmed by His desires. The Satan may make Sin attractive to Him, so He wrongs Himself to Commits Sin, and Falls into that which ALLAH has Horbidden. ​

But ALLAH is Kind to His Slaves, and His Mercy Encompasses ALL things. Whoever repents After doing wrong, ALLAH will accept His Repentance, For ALLAH is Forgiving & Merciful.​

AL, in both the OT/NT unless a blood sacrifice was offered, there was no atonement, nor forgiveness of sin. Now, you keep talking about repentance and forgiveness, yet you still have not spoken directly to the subject of atonement. So, I must ask again, If Jesus did not die on the cross to atone for the sins of humankind, then how are your sins atoned for?​

 

[Deren]

I think I have tried my best to answer his questions, however if any one else want to lead this thread please go ahead.

by the way those who are reading, do you think I try to answer his questions or even came close to answering his questions?

I don't think you've answered mine.

 

[Deren]

I don't think they are really interested in having their questions answerd brother.

Oh, I'm more than interested. So, why not focus your attention on doing so in your next post? Here is the question again: If Jesus did not die on the cross to atone for the sins of humankind, then how are your sins atoned for?

 

[elijah115]

Thanks elijah for the explanation. In your last comments one has to wonder what the difference is between Islamic atonement and Cain's offering, meaning that without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness.

Muslims don't believe that sinful nature separates man from God. They are not taught about God's holiness in the manner the bible teaches. They believe that sin only warrants punishment according to extent of the offense, excluding unbelief (to christians, that's even believing Mohammed is a false prophet by default since you must believe Mohammed to be a muslim) which warrants hell. God's holiness doesn't come into it.

 

[Bookofknowledge]

So, in your mind, all one has to do is ask for atonement, but there is no blood sacrifice involved? Notice, I said atonement, not forgiveness.

The basic concept of sacrifice in religion is to help those who are in need. We find in Qur'aan that God asked people of moses to make a scarifice....

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

2:67
And remember Moses said to his people: "Allah commands that ye sacrifice a heifer." They said: "Makest thou a laughing-stock of us?" He said: "Allah save me from being an ignorant (fool)!"

2:68
They said: "Beseech on our behalf thy Lord to make plain to us what (heifer) it is! He said: "He says: The heifer should be neither too old nor too young but of middling age; now do what ye are commanded!.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

When you sacrifice a heifer, what you do? eat it or distribute it among the poor so they can have a proper meal?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

2:271
To give charity in public is good, but to gives the poor in private is better and will remove from you some of your sins. Allah is aware of your actions.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

2:274
Those who spend their wealth in charity by night and day, secretly and openly, they will have their reward from their Rabb. They shall have nothing to fear or to regret.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

22:36
We have included the sacrificial camels among the Symbols of Allah, for there is much good for you in them. Therefore, pronounce the name of Allah over them while standing, and when they fall down on their sides after slaughter, when their movement completely stops, then eat of their meat, feed the contented (poor who do not ask) and the beggars (poor who ask). Thus We have subjected these animals to you so that you may be grateful.

22:37
It is neither their meat nor their blood that reaches Allah; it is your piety that reaches Him. Thus, He has subjected these animals to you so that you may glorify Allah for giving you guidance, and O Prophet, give good news to those who do good to others.

22:38
Surely Allah wards off evil from those who are true believers: for certainly Allah does not love anyone who is treacherous, ungrateful.

 

[Bookofknowledge]

The question is not about forgiveness. The question is about atoning for sin.

11:117
It is not possible that your Rabb would destroy the towns unjustly while their habitants were to mend their ways.

---------------------------------------------

according to the above verse we find that God will not punish if anyone mend their ways meaning return from wrongdoing to right path.

---------------------------------------------

16:119
Yet your Rabb is forgiving and merciful towards those who do something wrong through ignorance, but later repent and mend their ways.

24:5
- except those who repent thereafter and mend their conduct; for Allah is surely Forgiving, Merciful.

3:89
However, those who repent after this and mend their ways, then verily Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.


---------------------------------------------

Again, the key is to mend ways and seek forgiveness.

---------------------------------------------

4:146
However, those who repent and mend their ways, hold fast to Allah, and become sincere in their devotion to Allah - they are considered to be with the believers. Allah will soon grant the believers a mighty reward.

4:147
Why should Allah punish you if you are grateful and a true believer? Allah knows the grateful.

---------------------------------------------

7:35
O children of Adam! Whenever there come to you Rasools from among you and recite to you My revelations, those who will become righteous and mend their ways will have nothing to fear or to regret;

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hosea 13:14 "I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death. O Death, I will be your plagues! O Grave, I will be your destruction! Pity is hidden from My eyes.

Isaiah 28:14 Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scornful men, Who rule this people who [are] in Jerusalem, 15 Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death, And with Sheol we are in agreement...... 18 Your covenant with death will be annulled/ATONED, And your agreement with Sheol will not stand; When the overflowing scourge passes through, Then you will be trampled down by it.

This my last reply to you on this subject...

When you use loaded term like "Lord" it contradicts with my belief because Only "The God" is the Lord of Mankind and the Lord of Israel.

Note: My advice not to use the word "Lord" when refering to Jesus because there is Only One Lord, Thy Creator.

It's not appropriate to use the word "King" when refering to Jesus (AS) either because the very nature of Jesus (AS) was not domineering and we find the common nature of kings is to dominate.

Savior of Israel as in terms of guiding the people of israel.....now that's some thing which we find common in-between you and US. "Yes he was sent by God to guide the people of Israel"

I understand.I didn't mean for it to be a loaded question, honest.

Lord has a number of meanings though and it doesn't have to be God. Jesus came to set up a kingdom not of this earth, so in essence He was King of the Kingdom above with God His Father. He is also mentioned as the King of Israel in the OT:

Zeph 3:14 Sing, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O Israel! Be glad and rejoice with all [your] heart, O daughter of Jerusalem! 15 The LORD has taken away your judgments, He has cast out your enemy. The King of Israel, the LORD, [is] in your midst; You shall see disaster no more.

(NKJV) Matthew 23:39 "for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed [is] He who comes in the name of the LORD!' "

(NKJV) Mark 12:36 "For David himself said by the Holy Spirit: 'The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool." '

of the Lord
New Testament Greek Definition:
2962 kurios {koo'-ree-os}
from kuros (supremacy); TDNT - 3:1039,486; n m
AV - Lord 667, lord 54, master 11, sir 6, Sir 6, misc 4; 748
1) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has
power of deciding; master, lord
1a) the possessor and disposer of a thing
1a1) the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
1a2) in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
1b) is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence,
with which servants greet their master
1c) this title is given to: God, the Messiah
For Synonyms see entry 5830



Matt 2:5 So they said to him, "In Bethlehem of Judea, for thus it is written by the prophet: 6 'But you, Bethlehem, [in] the land of Judah, Are not the least among the rulers of Judah; For out of You shall come a Ruler Who will Shepherd [#4165] My people Israel.' "

Luke 2:34 Then Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary His mother, "Behold, this [Child] is destined for the fall and rising [RESURRECTION] of many in Israel, and for a sign which will be spoken against 35 "(yes, a sword will pierce through your own soul also), that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed."

Daniel 12: 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame [and] everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever.

 

[Deren]

The basic concept of sacrifice in religion is to help those who are in need. We find in Qur'aan that God asked people of moses to make a scarifice....

And God asked the people of Israel to sacrifice for what purpose? A need? And what need would that be?

 

[Deren]

11:117
It is not possible that your Rabb would destroy the towns unjustly while their habitants were to mend their ways.

---------------------------------------------

according to the above verse we find that God will not punish if anyone mend their ways meaning return from wrongdoing to right path.

But once again, you're not answering the question being asked. I'm not asking about punishment, I'm asking about atoning for sin. Do you not understand what I mean by atone?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

But once again, you're not answering the question being asked. I'm not asking about punishment, I'm asking about atoning for sin. Do you not understand what I mean by atone?

http://www.nsbible.org/sits_ts/v0s1.htm

To understand the significance of the Day of Atonement and its work, we must realize that while our Lord Jesus personally is the Chief Priest to the under-priesthood, the Gospel Church, "his Body," yet in the more full and complete sense he is the Head and we are the members of the Body of the world's High Priest. Just so Aaron was chief over his under- priesthood, while really in its general and proper sense and representing the under-priests, he was ordained to minister as High Priest "for all the people" of Israel--the typical representatives of all humanity desirous of having atonement made for their sins and to return to Divine favor and obedience...............

Thus the typical "Day of Atonement" ended; and Israel, thus typically cleansed from sin, was reckoned no longer defiled and separated from God, but now at one with him. Justice no longer condemned, but bade them realize God's reconciled presence in their midst, to bless and protect and direct into the Canaan of rest and peace.

Hosea 13:14 "I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death. O Death, I will be your plagues! O Grave, I will be your destruction! Pity is hidden from My eyes.

Isaiah 28:14 Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scornful men, Who rule this people who [are] in Jerusalem, 15 Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death, And with Sheol we are in agreement...... 18 Your covenant with death will be Atoned, And your agreement with Sheol will not stand; When the overflowing scourge passes through, Then you will be trampled down by it.

 

[Bookofknowledge]

And God asked the people of Israel to sacrifice for what purpose? A need? And what need would that be?

They were shown sign after sign, a total of nine signs. I believe they were tested in their faith by God when God asked them to make a sacrifice after showing them signs.

Based on what I know so far, According to the verse of Qur'aan people believed in Moses after they saw the signs hence it is possible that God tested them by asking them to sacrifice just as they were tested in their faith when Moses went on Mountain to received commandments (they failed in their faith when Moses went on the Mountain) and with regards to the sacrifice they nearly declained to make a sacrifice.

Since they made the sacrifice and obeyed what God commanded them to do, God may have forgiven their short commings.

--------------------------------------------

2:72
And remember another incident when you killed a man and started disputing as to who killed him, Allah made it known what you concealed.

2:73
So We said: "Strike the dead body with a piece of the slaughtered cow." That's how Allah brought the dead to life to show you His Signs so that you may understand His power to restore life.

------------------------------------------

I am not sure the above event is related to the one when God asked people to make a sacrifice of it's totally a different event.

From the above verse, it seems that God has Show the Mircle when people were asked to strike the dead body with a piece of the slaughtered (sacrificed) cow...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

They were shown sign after sign, a total of nine signs. I believe they were tested in their faith by God when God asked them to make a sacrifice after showing them signs.

Based on what I know so far, According to the verse of Qur'aan people believed in Moses after they saw the signs hence it is possible that God tested them by asking them to sacrifice just as they were tested in their faith when Moses went on Mountain to received commandments (they failed in their faith when Moses went on the Mountain) and with regards to the sacrifice they nearly declained to make a sacrifice.

Since they made the sacrifice and obeyed what God commanded them to do, God may have forgiven their short commings.

--------------------------------------------

2:72
And remember another incident when you killed a man and started disputing as to who killed him, Allah made it known what you concealed.

2:73
So We said: "Strike the dead body with a piece of the slaughtered cow." That's how Allah brought the dead to life to show you His Signs so that you may understand His power to restore life.
I am not sure the above incidents is related to the one when God asked people to make a sacrifice of it's totally a different event.
From the above verse, it seems that God has Show the Mircle when people were asked to strike the dead body with a piece of the slaughtered (sacrificed) cow...

Hi BoK. Have you ever read the book of Leviticus in the OT/OC?

http://www.nsbible.org/sits_ts/v0s4.htm

 

[Bookofknowledge]

But once again, you're not answering the question being asked. I'm not asking about punishment, I'm asking about atoning for sin. Do you not understand what I mean by atone?

Think about the options you have because there is no possible way to go back and undo what has been done in the past, hence your options are to mend ways, seek forgiveness, do good deeds openly and secretly.

Remember, The God is Most Merciful of all those who show Mercy. If the matter reaches authority then it's the responsiblity of those who are in authority to establish justice.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

5:45
We ordained in Taurat for them: "A life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth and for a wound an equal retaliation." But if anyone remits the retaliation by way of charity it will be an act of atonement for him; those who do not judge by the law which Allah has revealed, they are the wrongdoers.

 

[Bookofknowledge]

Hi BoK. Have you ever read the book of Leviticus in the OT/OC?

http://www.nsbible.org/sits_ts/v0s4.htm

No, I have not read the book of Leviticus as of yet.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hi BoK. Have you ever read the book of Leviticus in the OT/OC?

http://www.nsbible.org/sits_ts/v0s4.htm

No, I have not read the book of Leviticus as of yet.

Ok. I haven't read through it myself in awhile, but it describes how the Christ would be the final Atonement for OC Israel and Judah in the future, the High Priesthood. The book of Hebrews is another excellent book to read in conjunction with it. I am not trying to convert you from the Koran, but at least read some of the OT/OC to see why God sent Jesus the Christ to Israel and Judah. Peace.

(Young) Hebrews 9:15 And because of this, of a New Covenant He is mediator, that, death having come, for redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, those called may receive the promise of the age-during inheritance,

 

[ALRAJY]

[/color][/size][/font]

AL, in both the OT/NT unless a blood sacrifice was offered, there was no atonement, nor forgiveness of sin. Now, you keep talking about repentance and forgiveness, yet you still have not spoken directly to the subject of atonement. So, I must ask again, If Jesus did not die on the cross to atone for the sins of humankind, then how are your sins atoned for?[/left]

Deren, Are we talking about the OT/NT Here, Or you are asking Muslims about Few Concepts On Islam ? Because It seems that Whenever we Answer you, you turn to the OT/NT. Also why do you Insist On the Term "Atonement" rather than "Repentance" Or "Forgiveness", What is the Difference ? If we Look at the Outcome, It is that you want your Sins to be Forgiven, Right ? I don't Really think It matters what Term we Use.


These two conditions are the Basis Of Acceptable deeds, which must Be Sincerely For the Sake Of ALLAH ALone & correct according to the "Sharee’ah" Of the Messenger Of Allaah (PBUH) which ALLAH has Prescribed, and He Should not worship ALLAH in any Other way. That is Achieved by Following the Prophet (PBUH), and what He brought, and Shunning anything that Goes against It, and not Inventing any new Form of worship that Has not been Narrated in Sound reports from the Prophet (PBUH).


Sincere Repentance is not Merely the matter Of words Spoken On the tongue. Rather, the Acceptance Of repentance is subject to the Condition that the person Gives-up the Sin Straight-away, that He regrets what has Happened in the past, that He Resolves not to Go back to the thing He has repented from, that He Restores People’s Rights or property if His Sin involved Wrongdoing towards Others, and that He repents before the Agony Of death is upon Him. ALLAH says:

(AL-Ma'aidah 5:39) "But whosoever repents after his crime and does Righteous Good Deeds (Oy Obeying ALLAH), then verily, ALLAH will Pardon Him (Accept His Repentance). Verily, ALLAH is Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful"

For ALLAH Does not Look at Our Features & Possessions but He Looks at Our Hearts & Deeds, Submitting to ALLAH, In Order to Keep In Continues Contact with Him Ranges From Performing Prayers "Five times a day", Fasting "One month a year", Giving Charity as Often as Possible, and through Pilgrimage "Once in One's Life". The Prophet (PBUH) Said that Any Muslim who Plants a Plant so that a Bird, a Human Or other Dumb Animals would Eat From It, Allah will reward Him For it, even to Remove an Obstacle from a Road, will be counted as a Charity For you.​

(AL-An'aam 6:54) "…your Lord has written (Prescribed) Mercy for Himself, So that If any Of you does evil in Ignorance, and thereafter Repents and does Righteous good deeds (By Obeying ALLAH), then Surely, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful"​

The Prophet (PBUH) Said:"Our Lord comes down to the Lowest heaven when One-third Of the Night remains, and says, ‘Who will call upon Me So that I may answer him? Who will ask Me So that I may give to Him? Who will seek My Forgiveness so that I may Forgive Him?"(Narrated by Muslim, no. 758)​

But Note that Righteous deeds Such as Prayer, Fasting, HaJJ, they Only Expiate For Transgressions against the Rights Of ALLAH. With regard to Sins that have to do with the Rights Of Other People, they can Only be Expiated by Repenting From them. One Of the conditions Of repenting From them is restoring the Rights Of those who have been Wronged. ​

(Muslim - 1886 Narrated From Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Amr ibn AL-‘Aas that the Messenger Of ALLAH (PBUH) Said: "The martyr will be Forgiven For ALL His Sins except debt")​

(AL-Nawawi said in Sharh Muslim: "The words Of the Prophet (PBUH), Peace & Blessings Of ALLAH Be Upon Him, “except debt” draw attention to ALL Rights Owed to Other people. Jihad, Martyrdom & Other Righteous deeds do not Expiate For Transgressions against the Rights Of Other people, rather they Only expiate for Transgressions against the Rights Of Allaah")​

It Says in (AL-Mawsoo’ah AL-Fi qhiyyah - 14/129: "Repentance in the Sense Of regretting what One Has Done and Resolving not to do It again is not Sufficient to Waive the rights that are Owed to Other People. Whoever has Stolen another Person’s Wealth, or Seized It by Force, Or has wronged Him in any Other way, Will not have Finished with the matter by Simply regretting It, Giving-up the Sin and Resolving not to do It again. Rather He has to Restore those Rights")​

Kind Regards​

​

​

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

.....................

 

[Deren]

They were shown sign after sign, a total of nine signs. I believe they were tested in their faith by God when God asked them to make a sacrifice after showing them signs.

Based on what I know so far, According to the verse of Qur'aan people believed in Moses after they saw the signs hence it is possible that God tested them by asking them to sacrifice just as they were tested in their faith when Moses went on Mountain to received commandments (they failed in their faith when Moses went on the Mountain) and with regards to the sacrifice they nearly declained to make a sacrifice.

Since they made the sacrifice and obeyed what God commanded them to do, God may have forgiven their short commings.

Book, while I appreciate your effort to communicate, I really don't think you understand what I'm asking. I'm not asking about testing of faith, nor worship, nor repentance, nor forgiveness. I've been asking about atonement for sin. The Jews had a sacrificial system in the OT, which according to the NT was fulfilled in the person of Jesus, that temporarily atoned for the sins of the nation. Yet, Muslims reject that Jesus died on the cross to atone for the sins of humanity, and they only seem to have a vague idea of what took place in the OT concerning Moses and the sacrificial system. Therefore, just what do Muslims ascribe to as the event to atone for their sins? If it isn't Jesus, and Muslims do not follow Levitical law, then how are their sins atoned for?