Mr./Ms. Muslim, I have a question for you.

[seed757]

Honestly, it doesn't matter whether or not they believe in original sin or not. Everyone is a sinner, and unless atonement is made for his/her sin, then forgiveness, repentance, restoration, etc., are not possible. So, we're back to the atonement question.

And you do realize that this is your opinion, right?

 

[seed757]

So, when Scripture tells us that God shed his blood to purchase his church (Acts 20:28), what is Luke referring to if it isn't Jesus' atoning for the sins of humankind? And since the Muslim rejects such a concept, what does Islam offer as a viable substitute for the shedding of blood to atone for sins? From the previous post you said that the atonement came from individuals such as yourself. But, is that really a suitable alternative, given the tainted nature of who you are as a human being? Do you not think that God requires something much more perfect, given that he is perfect?

That is just it. There is nothing..NOTHING more important nor perfect, that a man possess, than man's intention to please God. That is the underlying message of Islam.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

So, when Scripture tells us that God shed his blood to purchase his church (Acts 20:28), what is Luke referring to if it isn't Jesus' atoning for the sins of humankind? And since the Muslim rejects such a concept, what does Islam offer as a viable substitute for the shedding of blood to atone for sins? From the previous post you said that the atonement came from individuals such as yourself. But, is that really a suitable alternative, given the tainted nature of who you are as a human being? Do you not think that God requires something much more perfect, given that he is perfect?

That is just it. There is nothing..NOTHING more important nor perfect, that a man possess, than man's intention to please God. That is the underlying message of Islam.

But you give the message of muhammad instead of the message of Jesus the Christ, the Perfect Man!!!!!

(Young) John 5:39 `Ye search the Writings, because ye think in them to have life age-during, and these are they that are testifying concerning Me;

(Young) Mark 9:7 And there came a cloud overshadowing them, and there came a Voice out of the cloud, saying, `This is My Son--the Beloved, hear ye him!!!!;'

(Young) John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith to him, `Him of whom Moses wrote in the Law, and the prophets, we have found, Jesus the son of Joseph, who [is] from Nazareth;'

(Young) John 14:6 Jesus saith to him, `I am the way, and the truth, and the life, no one doth come unto the Father, if not through me;

 

[warghaha]

In short, no, because the only way they would be suitable is if they actually answered the question. And so far what has been provided are citations dealing with everything but atonement.

So you think that not answered you question. Ok, I respect your view.

Please give it a try. But just remember, I'm asking about atonement, and nothing else. Okay?

But, what I'm trying to try is from the Muslims perspective. I hope you can agree on that.

Heard what?

Y'know, the spooky voice in the time of the night. When youre alone in the dark.. Nah! Just kidding. Just to lighten the mood with my lame joke.

Really? So, just what blood offering are you going to offer of yourself that will appease the righteousness and holiness of God, given that you are an imperfect sinner, just like everyone else?

God create us. He knew we're not perfect because He's the One that create us. So, with all His Mercy, He'll forgive us, the imperfect creatures that He created. He knows what's in our heart and what are we doing with our life. In Islam, blood offering is not the way to appease God. In fact, nothing can be compared with the blessing He bestowed upon us. But He knows our sincerity within us. To do our best, to struggle our best. And God knows best.

But once again, if this atonement that you spoke about above is flawed, because of an inherent sin nature, then just what can you offer to God that will lead to your forgiveness?

Our sincerity, our struggle, our motivation, etc. God is All-Knowing and He knows we're imperfect beings. And He also Most-Forgiving. He create us just like what we are, so He is aware what is our limit and what we've done and what we're trying to do.

Salaam

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

So you think that not answered you question. Ok, I respect your view.
But, what I'm trying to try is from the Muslims perspective. I hope you can agree on that.

Y'know, the spooky voice in the time of the night. When youre alone in the dark.. Nah! Just kidding. Just to lighten the mood with my lame joke.

God create us. He knew we're not perfect because He's the One that create us. So, with all His Mercy, He'll forgive us, the imperfect creatures that He created. He knows what's in our heart and what are we doing with our life. In Islam, blood offering is not the way to appease God. In fact, nothing can be compared with the blessing He bestowed upon us. But He knows our sincerity within us. To do our best, to struggle our best. And God knows best.

Our sincerity, our struggle, our motivation, etc. God is All-Knowing and He knows we're imperfect beings. And He also Most-Forgiving. He create us just like what we are, so He is aware what is our limit and what we've done and what we're trying to do.

Salaam

So why do you put Jesus lower then Muhammad. That is what I don't understand. Why does not your Koran EXALT Him over muhammad??

(Young) John 5:39 `Ye search the Writings, because ye think in them to have life age-during, and these are they that are testifying concerning Me;

(Young) Mark 9:7 And there came a cloud overshadowing them, and there came a Voice out of the cloud, saying, `This is My Son--the Beloved, hear ye him!!!!;'

(Young) John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith to him, `Him of whom Moses wrote in the Law, and the prophets, we have found, Jesus the son of Joseph, who [is] from Nazareth;'

(Young) John 14:6 Jesus saith to him, `I am the way, and the truth, and the life, no one doth come unto the Father, if not through me;

 

[warghaha]

So, when Scripture tells us that God shed his blood to purchase his church (Acts 20:28), what is Luke referring to if it isn't Jesus' atoning for the sins of humankind? And since the Muslim rejects such a concept, what does Islam offer as a viable substitute for the shedding of blood to atone for sins?

Allah's Merciness.

From the previous post you said that the atonement came from individuals such as yourself. But, is that really a suitable alternative, given the tainted nature of who you are as a human being? Do you not think that God requires something much more perfect, given that he is perfect?

When I said, the atonement came from within ourselves, I was tryign to be philosophical. God knews what is our intention, what we've done, etc. Based on that God will blessed us with His forgiveness. Not because of the sacrificial blood, etc.

God is Self-Sufficient. He does not required something perfect as an atonement of sins. He create us as imperfect beings, so He already expect soemthing imperfect from us. He know what is our limit. As long as we do the best, just remember, God is Most-Merciful, Most-Forgiving.

Salaam.

 

[seed757]

So why do you put Jesus lower then Muhammad. That is what I don't understand. Why does not your Koran EXALT Him over muhammad??

(Young) John 5:39 `Ye search the Writings, because ye think in them to have life age-during, and these are they that are testifying concerning Me;

(Young) Mark 9:7 And there came a cloud overshadowing them, and there came a Voice out of the cloud, saying, `This is My Son--the Beloved, hear ye him!!!!;'

(Young) John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith to him, `Him of whom Moses wrote in the Law, and the prophets, we have found, Jesus the son of Joseph, who [is] from Nazareth;'

(Young) John 14:6 Jesus saith to him, `I am the way, and the truth, and the life, no one doth come unto the Father, if not through me;

The Quran does not exalt any Prophet above the other,because they are all equal to us as their recipients of their message. Since they all had the same message, how can you put one over the other?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The Quran does not exalt any Prophet above the other,because they are all equal to us as their recipients of their message. Since they all had the same message, how can you put one over the other?

Jesus was equal to all other men/prophets

(Young) John 5:39 `Ye search the Writings, because ye think in them to have life age-during, and these are they that are testifying concerning Me;

(Young) Mark 9:7 And there came a cloud overshadowing them, and there came a Voice out of the cloud, saying, `This is My Son--the Beloved, hear ye him!!!!;'

(Young) John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith to him, `Him of whom Moses wrote in the Law, and the prophets, we have found, Jesus the son of Joseph, who [is] from Nazareth;'

(Young) John 14:6 Jesus saith to him, `I am the way, and the truth, and the life, no one doth come unto the Father, if not through me;

 

[warghaha]

So why do you put Jesus lower then Muhammad. That is what I don't understand. Why does not your Koran EXALT Him over muhammad??

It's not my Quran. I don't have the copyright of it. It's a guidance for all mankind.

I'm not belittle Jesus for all I know. I would rather being smashed by your sledgehammer than to do that. I just can't exalt him higher or simillar to God. He's indeed the noble, righteous, [insert your praise here] man. And I'm not saying Muhammad is greater than him nor he's greater than Muhammad. I hope you can understnad that

Salaam.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The Quran does not exalt any Prophet above the other,because they are all equal to us as their recipients of their message. Since they all had the same message, how can you put one over the other?

Jesus was equal to all other men/prophets

(Young) John 5:39 `Ye search the Writings, because ye think in them to have life age-during, and these are they that are testifying concerning Me;

(Young) Mark 9:7 And there came a cloud overshadowing them, and there came a Voice out of the cloud, saying, `This is My Son--the Beloved, hear ye him!!!!;'

(Young) John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith to him, `Him of whom Moses wrote in the Law, and the prophets, we have found, Jesus the son of Joseph, who [is] from Nazareth;'

(Young) John 14:6 Jesus saith to him, `I am the way, and the truth, and the life, no one doth come unto the Father, if not through me;

It's not my Quran. I don't have the copyright of it. It's a guidance for all mankind.

I'm not belittle Jesus for all I know. I would rather being smashed by your sledgehammer than to do that. I just can't exalt him higher or simillar to God. He's indeed the noble, righteous, [insert your praise here] man. And I'm not saying Muhammad is greater than him nor he's greater than Muhammad. I hope you can understnad that

Salaam.

Well, I find it odd that the muslims expect Jesus to return in the future in Great GLory and Power and can still be considered just an "ordinary" prophet.

http://www.christianforums.com/t2902391-muslims-and-the-return-of-jesus-in-future.html

Revelation 2:18 " And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write, ' These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass:............

Matthew 24:20 "And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 "For then there will be Great Tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the World until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 "And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened

Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands [watch] over the sons of your people; And there shall be a Time of Trouble, Such as never was since there was a Nation, [Even] to that time. And at that time Your People shall be saved, Every one who is found written in The Book.

 

[seed757]

Jesus was equal to all other men/prophets

(Young) John 5:39 `Ye search the Writings, because ye think in them to have life age-during, and these are they that are testifying concerning Me;

(Young) Mark 9:7 And there came a cloud overshadowing them, and there came a Voice out of the cloud, saying, `This is My Son--the Beloved, hear ye him!!!!;'

(Young) John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith to him, `Him of whom Moses wrote in the Law, and the prophets, we have found, Jesus the son of Joseph, who [is] from Nazareth;'

(Young) John 14:6 Jesus saith to him, `I am the way, and the truth, and the life, no one doth come unto the Father, if not through me;

Jesus(pbuh) may have performed more miracles than other prophets. Moses(pbuh) may have done greater miracles than others. Elijah(pbuh) may have performed more significant miracles. It is not about the miracles or writtings or leadership. All prophets had different role and specific duties they performed.But, the essence of what they taught to the people they had influence over, was all the same. There is but one God whom we all must worship and obey.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Jesus was equal to all other men/prophets

(Young) John 5:39 `Ye search the Writings, because ye think in them to have life age-during, and these are they that are testifying concerning Me;

(Young) Mark 9:7 And there came a cloud overshadowing them, and there came a Voice out of the cloud, saying, `This is My Son--the Beloved, hear ye him!!!!;'

(Young) John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith to him, `Him of whom Moses wrote in the Law, and the prophets, we have found, Jesus the son of Joseph, who [is] from Nazareth;'

(Young) John 14:6 Jesus saith to him, `I am the way, and the truth, and the life, no one doth come unto the Father, if not through me;

Jesus(pbuh) may have performed more miracles than other prophets. Moses(pbuh) may have done greater miracles than others. Elijah(pbuh) may have performed more significant miracles. It is not about the miracles or writtings or leadership. All prophets had different role and specific duties they performed.But, the essence of what they taught to the people they had influence over, was all the same. There is but one God whom we all must worship and obey.

It is about the Who was to come to the world with the Word of God and the first to be raised.by God Himself and also to return with both Salvation and Vengeance.

Revelation 2:18 " And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write, ' These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass:............


Jeremiah 4:13 Lo, as clouds he cometh up, And as a hurricane his chariots, Lighter than eagles have been his horses, Woe to us, for we have been spoiled. 14 Wash from evil thy heart, O Jerusalem, That thou mayest be saved, Till when dost thou lodge in thy heart Thoughts of thy strength? 15 For a voice is declaring from Dan, And sounding sorrow from mount Ephraim. 16 Make ye mention to the nations, Lo, sound ye to Jerusalem: `Besiegers are coming from the land afar off, And they give forth against cities of Judah their voice.

 

[Deren]

So is this shed blood not physical blood? What other type of blood is there?

Of course it's physical blood, because it was shed by a human being for humanity. But that doesn't mean that it ends up in heaven.

 

[Deren]

And you do realize that this is your opinion, right?

No, it's not my opinion. It is God's assessment of the human condition.

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Of course it's physical blood, because it was shed by a human being for humanity. But that doesn't mean that it ends up in heaven.

Is Jesus still flesh and bones in "heaven" or did He obtain a Glorified body?

Luke 24:38 And he said to them, `Why are ye troubled? and wherefore do reasonings come up in your hearts? 39 see my hands and my feet, that I am he; handle me and see, because a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me having.'

(Young) John 20:27 then he saith to Thomas, `Bring thy finger hither, and see my hands, and bring thy hand, and put [it] to my side, and become not unbelieving, but believing.'

 

[Deren]

That is just it. There is nothing..NOTHING more important nor perfect, that a man possess, than man's intention to please God. That is the underlying message of Islam.

And yet since all men reside in sinful flesh, until an atonement is made and forgiveness is received, there is nothing that anyone can do to please God.

Romans 8:6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so; 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Therefore, once again, if the Muslim has rejected God's blood atonement, then just how can he atone for his own sin, leading to forgiveness, and ultimately appeasing God?

 

[Deren]

So you think that not answered you question. Ok, I respect your view.

Well, if you can show me where my question was answered, I'll respect that too. But thus far, I've seen just about every topic addressed except the question at hand. And when queried further about an individual serving as their own personal atonement, that tends to go unanswered as well.

But, what I'm trying to try is from the Muslims perspective. I hope you can agree on that.

I can only assume that that is what you're doing, since obviously I do not know you, nor your motives. Yet, if that is the case, that is fine. Thank you.

In Islam, blood offering is not the way to appease God. In fact, nothing can be compared with the blessing He bestowed upon us. But He knows our sincerity within us. To do our best, to struggle our best. And God knows best.

Finally, a confession. Now, once again, if God does not require a blood sacrifice (which is found in both the OT and NT) to atone for sins, and all God requires is our sin-tainted "sincerity" and "doing our best," and he's leaving it up to us to get the job done as far as atoning for our own sin, then just what is the likelihood that anyone will ever be perfect enough to stand in his presence and be accepted by him? Furthermore, with the talk in Scripture about a Savior, to which even Muslims believe that Allah is a Savior, who really needs one if atonement for sin is left up to the sinner? Isn't the sinner really his own savior in that case?

 

[Deren]

Allah's Merciness.

Luke is not talking about God's mercy, though. He's talking about Jesus Christ, who shed his blood, as God, for the redemption of humanity (i.e., the church). Yet, because is merciful that he acted to atone for humanity's sin, and that was done through what action?

When I said, the atonement came from within ourselves, I was tryign to be philosophical. God knews what is our intention, what we've done, etc. Based on that God will blessed us with His forgiveness. Not because of the sacrificial blood, etc.

Then from what you're saying, everything that God has revealed, starting way back in the OT with the Levitical law to the coming and fulfillment of the law in the person of Jesus was a ruse? Did God change his mind somewhere along the way? If so, where and when? And once again, if God knows our intention and work, do you not think he knows all about our feeble attempts at attaining righteousness? If so, then don't you think that God just might intervene on humanity's behalf in a much more merciful and loving way that to leave humans to their own devices to try and work out their atonement, forgiveness, and salvation by a means that is much more secure than their tainted works?

God is Self-Sufficient. He does not required something perfect as an atonement of sins.

Yet, humans are not perfect, and if they are going to receive God's forgiveness, then there is going to have to be sacrificial atonement for them before that forgiveness takes place. It is a requirement that is specifically stated in Scripture.

He create us as imperfect beings, so He already expect soemthing imperfect from us.

No, he did not create us imperfect. After Adam and Eve were created everything was declared "Very Good," not "Marginally Okay, with a taint of sin here and there." Instead, what took place is that Adam and Eve rebelled and then passed on their sin nature to everyone else subsequent to them, which is why if anyone now wishes to come into God's presence, there must be an atoning sacrifice performed in their behalf. And anything that is less than perfect will not appease the righteousness of God.

He know what is our limit. As long as we do the best, just remember, God is Most-Merciful, Most-Forgiving.

Again, our "best" is tainted with sin, meaning that it falls far short of God's standards of holiness and righteousness.

Isaiah 64:6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.​

Therefore, unless something much more substantial than "our best" represents us before God, to not only atone for our sins, but to offer forgiveness and redemption from them, then we will die our sins and receive the wages for them, which is death.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Deren]

The Quran does not exalt any Prophet above the other,because they are all equal to us as their recipients of their message. Since they all had the same message, how can you put one over the other?

Jesus and Muhammad didn't have the same message, as has been evidenced throughout this discussion. Jesus taught that it was through his blood sacrifice that atonement would be finally and permanently made for humanity, while several Muslims here reject that idea and state that it is up to the individual to perform his own bloodless atonement. And one can only assume that the latter came from Muhammad, so why claim that Jesus and Muhammad had the same message, when obviously they did not?

 

[elijah115]

MT 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.


20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

PS 24:3 Who may ascend the hill of the LORD?
Who may stand in his holy place?

PS 24:4 He who has clean hands and a pure heart,