LDS Mormonism and Non-Mormons

[Ran77]

Those verses were not to support coming to Christ---but to point out the fact that scripture states that the Father and the Son will both be on the new earth and not---according to LDS doctrines, that the Father will only be somewhere where only those in exaltation can be with Him.

Ahh! Then perhaps you meant those verses for someone else. I've been discussing what members of the Church of Jesus Christ believe about "Coming unto Christ." I'm currently not interested in participating in a discussion about the new earth.

Of course, I certainly want to encourage you to engage others in this thread to discuss the topic with you. I'm only indicating that I'm not interested. Thanks, for including me though.

 

[Jamesone5]

No part of my response either agreed or disagreed with giving "essentially 1/3 billing to your Faith in Christ." That is something that you made up on your own. Why not respond to my actual comments?

And I have already stated what the members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believe about "Coming unto Christ." I believe it was clear and understandable.




Like I said previously in this thread. I don't do the whole "what Mormons believe" thing. I deal with our actual doctrine and what I believe. Feel free to post scripture to support your claims, but whatever you may, or may not, have done in regards to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is not my concern and neither is it proof against our beliefs. It only means that is what you did.

And it still seems to be unrelated to the topic.




Again, I'm not responsible for what other people have told you, what you have chosen to believe, or any other variant of the same. Let's deal with the actual doctrine.




I'm pretty sure I'm not in the position of telling anyone on this forum whether they are right or wrong here. I believe that is the job of the moderators. Or did you mean to say that I'm arguing from a point where I am telling you that you are right or wrong? In that case, I'd like you to point out where I did that?

Or did you mean to say that I'm arguing from a point where I am telling you that you are right or wrong? In that case, I'd like you to point out where I did that?--Ran77

No part of my response either agreed or disagreed with giving "essentially 1/3 billing to your Faith in Christ." That is something that you made up on your own. Why not respond to my actual comments?--Ran77

Now "making something up" in my book is the same thing as telling someone that he/she is purposely deceiving and could be considered a claim of "bearing false witness" by the accuser. And I see a whole lot of claims "that I made it up" [or the variances]

Why pretend in your responses back to me? You tend to want to control the conversation by saying "I am making things up" and then expecting me to read your half -baked responses in entirety. I deal in truth and I have no time for such nonsense.The actual way of handling it would be "I believe you are wrong"

And the nonsense about your testimony and sharing it here is just another way to avoid the responses you would get. Mormons like to pretend their testimonies are somehow a blessing to those who hear them and we so-called "anti Mormons" are not worthy of that blessing. Am "I making things up" here as well?

This is from 40 years of being in your Church.​

 

[mmksparbud]

Ahh! Then perhaps you meant those verses for someone else. I've been discussing what members of the Church of Jesus Christ believe about "Coming unto Christ." I'm currently not interested in participating in a discussion about the new earth.

Of course, I certainly want to encourage you to engage others in this thread to discuss the topic with you. I'm only indicating that I'm not interested. Thanks, for including me though.

LOL! You guys come up with creative ways of getting out of a discussion---it's Ok---been on here for years and am quite used to it. I have to take breaks away from discussing LDS theology as it is quite tiring for me. I already know the answers, anyway. It's sometimes fun to just get you guys to admit the truth. See, Christ is the only way to get to the Father. Coming to Christ is coming to the Father---they are one. And I already know you also haver to be eternally sealed in a LDS temple to get to exaltation---the whole thing is totally against scripture, but thanks for the fun ride. If there is one thing that being on here has taught everyone --- it is how you guys squirm away from topics that show what you actually believe and not just what you say.

 

[Jamesone5]

That is incorrect. The church of the Lamb of God is in Salt Lake City. It's also in Rome. And Berlin. The church of the Lamb of God exists in many places. It exists everywhere where people have been taught about Jesus and have accepted Him as their savior.

Allow me to quote our doctrine concerning the two churches. "The entity identified by John as “Babylon the great, the mother of harlots and abominations” is the church of the devil. This church encompasses all forces opposed to Jesus Christ, His gospel, and His Church, for there are only two churches: the Church of the Lamb of God and the church of the devil."

The doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints does not identify any Christian denominations to be part of the forces of the devil who are opposed to Jesus Christ. Anyone who persists to claim otherwise is not addressing our doctrine. Twisting, or otherwise changing, our doctrines might make for an easier target to attack, but it does nothing in the way of refuting our actual beliefs.


I recognize that responding to your comments takes the discussion away from the topic, but in this case, I thought it was a good opportunity to trot out my dimensional analogy again.

The topic of there being only two churches does a great job of illustrating the two-dimensional level of my analogy. At this level, everything is divided into good and evil. Everything is either one thing or another. Good and evil. God and the devil. Wheat and tares. The Church of the Lamb of God and the church of satan. And most importantly to this topic, the two-dimensional level of my analogy separates those who have "Come unto Christ" from the unbelievers.

All anyone has to do to truly understand what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints accepts as doctrine on this matter is to apply the items I mentioned earlier in the thread to the points that are being made. If you fit into the category that I defined as "Coming unto Christ" then you are in the Church of the Lamb of God. If a city has people who have "Come unto Christ" then the Church of the Lamb of God exists in that city.

Once again to you, the argument is not with me, but your own so-called BoM.


Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10
And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church which is the mother of abominations; and she is the harlot of all the earth.

By the way, you refer to your Religion as " the Church", and not necessarily Christ's Church. The above quote has 5 examples of the word "Church' or "The Church" , so it is pretty evident of what this false prophet was talking about.

You have set yourself up as exclusive as it "the Church of JC of LDS founded by Joseph Smith, with over a hundred off-shoots each claiming him as their founder, I might add.

And, what makes your claim more valid than say the RLDS for example? Are you condemning all those churches as well as all other Christians churches? This character Nephi seemed to be doing that.

 

[Rescued One]

But what your are NOT telling us and admitting to is this;

Faith is the key word and in your testimony you have to state and identify what elements you believe in or "know to be true"

Christ, of course

Your prophet Joseph Smith and/or your current prophet

And then the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

Why should Christ share one's Faith? After all He is the way, not also through a prophet and a worldly church that happens to have it's headquarters in SL City.

Why would any Mormon try to deny this? It might not be a requirement but I've heard those words repeated hundreds of times in multiple wards.

 

[Rescued One]

I was no longer Mormon in 2013, but a letter was sent out that year:
For our monthly testimony meetings, the First Presidency has asked that we “learn to express a brief, heartfelt testimony of our Father in Heaven and His Son, Jesus Christ, and the truths of the restored gospel” (First Presidency letter, Feb. 14, 2013).

If you belong to that church, you most certainly ought to believe that it is the restored Church of Christ, that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, that the current prophet is also chosen by God, etc. And instead of saying "I believe this" the member says "I know."

 

[Rescued One]

M. Russell Ballard Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles said:
My experience throughout the Church leads me to worry that too many of our members’ testimonies linger on “I am thankful” and “I love,” and too few are able to say with humble but sincere clarity, “I know.” As a result, our meetings sometimes lack the testimony-rich, spiritual underpinnings that stir the soul and have meaningful, positive impact on the lives of all those who hear them.
Pure Testimony, General Conference, October 2004
Pure Testimony

I heard "I know" so many times I could hardly believe it except that that was what was expected.

I apologize for the editing --- my computer was not working properly.

 

[He is the way]

You dispute your own BoM

Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10
And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church which is the mother of abominations; and she is the harlot of all the earth.

There is NO disputation in what I said.

 

[He is the way]

John 15:9
[ Love and Joy Perfected ] “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love.

(New Testament | John 14:21 - 23)

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

 

[He is the way]

What has that to do with being eternally sealed in a Mormon temple in order to be in the presence of the Father??? This is in this world, and even here, we do not have to be married. With salvation, we are all married to Christ.

It has everything to do with eternity.

 

[He is the way]

I was no longer Mormon in 2013, but a letter was sent out that year:
For our monthly testimony meetings, the First Presidency has asked that we “learn to express a brief, heartfelt testimony of our Father in Heaven and His Son, Jesus Christ, and the truths of the restored gospel” (First Presidency letter, Feb. 14, 2013).

If you belong to that church, you most certainly ought to believe that it is the restored Church of Christ, that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, that the current prophet is also chosen by God, etc. And instead of saying "I believe this" the member says "I know."

I do know.

 

[dzheremi]

I was no longer Mormon in 2013, but a letter was sent out that year:
For our monthly testimony meetings, the First Presidency has asked that we “learn to express a brief, heartfelt testimony of our Father in Heaven and His Son, Jesus Christ, and the truths of the restored gospel” (First Presidency letter, Feb. 14, 2013).

Would it be reading too much into things to notice how this formulation (often carried over into the Mormon testimonies I've seen) seems to have replaced belief in the Holy Spirit with belief in the 'restored gospel'? For all the emphasis Mormons tend to put on the Holy Spirit when talking about how their testimony is arrived at/confirmed, it seems odd to me that there is so seldom any mention of Him in these contexts.

The Mormon 'trinity' seems to be in practice (i.e., in these testimonies) the Father, the Son, and the Restoration. Two are gods (in Mormonism's henotheistic pantheon), while one is an ecclesiological principle. Huh.

If you belong to that church, you most certainly ought to believe that it is the restored Church of Christ, that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, that the current prophet is also chosen by God, etc. And instead of saying "I believe this" the member says "I know."

Much more sensibly, the Nicene Creed is formatted "We believe" (or "I believe", in some churches; the difference has to do with whether or not you come from a tradition that originally used it as a baptismal creed), not "we know", and yet the Mormons hate it and think it the height of theological snobbery, as has been evidenced here in the past. Huh again.

Which is more indicative of spiritual arrogance: claiming to know things of God by revelation that wasn't even given to you but to somebody else who you don't even know, or stating your belief in whatever it is you believe?

I think these Mormon testimonies cheapen what knowing something is.

 

[Rescued One]

@dzheremi These past few days my drafts at CF have been disappearing before I can post them! So I will attempt to make this one in Word Perfect and hope I can successfully paste it here. I have a lot to say in answer to the above post.

 

[Rescued One]

Would it be reading too much into things to notice how this formulation (often carried over into the Mormon testimonies I've seen) seems to have replaced belief in the Holy Spirit with belief in the 'restored gospel'? For all the emphasis Mormons tend to put on the Holy Spirit when talking about how their testimony is arrived at/confirmed, it seems odd to me that there is so seldom any mention of Him in these contexts.

I have plenty of problems with what they say and don’t say about their “Holy Ghost.”

The Holy Ghost is the third member of the Godhead. He is a Personage of Spirit, a Spirit Person, a Spirit Man, a Spirit Entity. He can be in only one place at a time, and he does not and cannot transform himself into any other form or image other than that of the Man whom he is, though his power and influence can be manifest at one and the same time through all immensity. (D. & C. 130:22-23; Teachings, p. 190, 275-276; Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed., pp. 59-62)
Mormon Doctrine, c. 1966, printed 1979, p. 359

Doctrine and Covenants 130
22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

More later.

 

[Jamesone5]

There is NO disputation in what I said.

And there is NO disputation in what I said. You get all you so-called facts and beliefs from Joseph Smith--I get mine from the Bible and Christ. We both stand before Christ in the End, who is the sheep and who is the goat?

 

[Jamesone5]

(New Testament | John 14:21 - 23)

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

1 John 4:19
We love Him because He first loved us

How would one know what love is, if you did not address what God in Christ did for you? You think you can force this love, without using His example?. It really can be a mere word if you do not understand what Christ did for you.

The verses you quote are merely directives, once one realizes from Christ's EXAMPLE of what love is. Here is another example of love

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

 

[He is the way]

And there is NO disputation in what I said. You get all you so-called facts and beliefs from Joseph Smith--I get mine from the Bible and Christ. We both stand before Christ in the End, who is the sheep and who is the goat?

Jesus has already taught us who the sheep and the goats are.

 

[He is the way]

1 John 4:19
We love Him because He first loved us

How would one know what love is, if you did not address what God in Christ did for you? You think you can force this love, without using His example?. It really can be a mere word if you do not understand what Christ did for you.

The verses you quote are merely directives, once one realizes from Christ's EXAMPLE of what love is. Here is another example of love

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Christ taught us about LOVE when He gave the parable of the good Samaritan:

(New Testament | Luke 10:33 - 37)

33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

 

[Jamesone5]

I do know.

The only thing you really Know or should know is this;

Psalm 46:10
Be still, and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth

Now a God who shares His Godhood with another God in Christ--proves you do not know the One True God.

Once you get through that Knowing God--it comes down to Faith
Hebrews 11:1
[ By Faith We Understand ] Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Now Mormons who say the Know something do not really know as they claim. For instance--- where any of you there when Joseph Smith received the plates? No, you have to rely on a faith as you certainly did not see it, nor witness it. Are you God who certainly knows all things:

1 John 3:20
For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things

Do you claim to know somehow that Christ died and then was Resurrected , having been there when it all happened? There again you have to really on a Faith. Reading the Bible and seeing His impact on our lives as the True Christ--makes for a Faith that is very solid.

Does this verse say 'know" somewhere?
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

When Mormon says he "knows" something in his testimony, I laugh as he/she is only hoping his church is true [through a relative faith]without addressing the rest of the Hebrews verse. Nor, not understanding what that verse is saying to those of us who have the Holy Spirit.

 

[Jamesone5]

Christ taught us about LOVE when He gave the parable of the good Samaritan:

(New Testament | Luke 10:33 - 37)

33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

Seems you are trying to deny or cancel out one verse in the Bible. He was only giving an example of this love He first brought onto the scene.

1 John 4:19
We love Him because He first loved us