LDS Mormonism and Non-Mormons

[Ran77]

Or did you mean to say that I'm arguing from a point where I am telling you that you are right or wrong? In that case, I'd like you to point out where I did that?--Ran77

No part of my response either agreed or disagreed with giving "essentially 1/3 billing to your Faith in Christ." That is something that you made up on your own. Why not respond to my actual comments?--Ran77

Now "making something up" in my book is the same thing as telling someone that he/she is purposely deceiving and could be considered a claim of "bearing false witness" by the accuser. And I see a whole lot of claims "that I made it up" [or the variances]
​

I'm not responsible for how people decide to react to my pointing out when they claim I have made statements when, in fact, I haven't. You are certainly free to react to the facts that way if you so choose.

I, on the other hand, would prefer to focus on the topic.

Why pretend in your responses back to me? You tend to want to control the conversation by saying "I am making things up" and then expecting me to read your half -baked responses in entirety. I deal in truth and I have no time for such nonsense.The actual way of handling it would be "I believe you are wrong"

I'm pretty sure that no one on this forum has the ability to read minds, and therefore know what someone else wants. Projecting emotions, thoughts, or motivations on another person does nothing to strengthen the arguments you might have against me or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

Please, can we avoid any further distractions from the topic and discuss the actual details that involve what members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believe about "Coming unto Christ"?

Do you have anything to contribute to a discussion of that topic?

And the nonsense about your testimony and sharing it here is just another way to avoid the responses you would get. Mormons like to pretend their testimonies are somehow a blessing to those who hear them and we so-called "anti Mormons" are not worthy of that blessing. Am "I making things up" here as well?

This is from 40 years of being in your Church.

​

Facts, please. I expect a person who spent 40 years in any institution should be able to provide solid evidence to back whatever claims they might want to make. Do you have any scriptures, official church material, or logical arguments that will support or refute what I have offered on the topic so far?

 

[He is the way]

2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”

You say you know the Church of JCofLDS is his true church you are set your "knowing" on that as a Member who really only thinks he is HIS.

Does the Lord God NOT get a say on this? You know the God you say you Worship and Love?

I prayed to God and He gave me the answer in two books. One of them was written by my great grandfather and another written by a young girl who had seen Jesus.

 

[He is the way]

Gain, earn, worthy are favorite words of Mormons because that is the only way a Mormon can be blessed.

The way people LOVE Jesus is by keeping the commandments.

 

[Ran77]

LOL! You guys come up with creative ways of getting out of a discussion---it's Ok---been on here for years and am quite used to it. I have to take breaks away from discussing LDS theology as it is quite tiring for me. I already know the answers, anyway. It's sometimes fun to just get you guys to admit the truth. See, Christ is the only way to get to the Father. Coming to Christ is coming to the Father---they are one. And I already know you also haver to be eternally sealed in a LDS temple to get to exaltation---the whole thing is totally against scripture, but thanks for the fun ride. If there is one thing that being on here has taught everyone --- it is how you guys squirm away from topics that show what you actually believe and not just what you say.

I guess this is goodbye, or at least until later. I will point out that I have posted what the members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believe about "Coming to Christ" and so far there has been no rebuttal to what I offered. Without any reasonable challenge to my initial statement, what I have offered on the topic appears to be beyond contestation.

 

[Jamesone5]

I'm not responsible for how people decide to react to my pointing out when they claim I have made statements when, in fact, I haven't. You are certainly free to react to the facts that way if you so choose.

I, on the other hand, would prefer to focus on the topic.





I'm pretty sure that no one on this forum has the ability to read minds, and therefore know what someone else wants. Projecting emotions, thoughts, or motivations on another person does nothing to strengthen the arguments you might have against me or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

Please, can we avoid any further distractions from the topic and discuss the actual details that involve what members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believe about "Coming unto Christ"?

Do you have anything to contribute to a discussion of that topic?


​

Facts, please. I expect a person who spent 40 years in any institution should be able to provide solid evidence to back whatever claims they might want to make. Do you have any scriptures, official church material, or logical arguments that will support or refute what I have offered on the topic so far?

All you are doing here is making excuses for the fact that you repeated the claim that "I made things up" when of course you did not offer any sort of proof.

You think I would want to rejoin your Religion if you are an example? And no, I did not bother to read any of your response.
​

 

[Jamesone5]

I prayed to God and He gave me the answer in two books. One of them was written by my great grandfather and another written by a young girl who had seen Jesus.

Wow, two books that you read to somehow bring you to God's Truths

Let see, you are essentially claiming that "you know" more that God knows.
2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”

God certainly know who are His--but then a Mormon also claims "to know', because he doesn't realize what Faith is.

 

[Ran77]

Once again to you, the argument is not with me, but your own so-called BoM.

What argument? For the most part, the discussion between you and me has been me pointing out how I haven't made most of the statements you claim I have made. I would love a rousing good debate (argument) on the topic. Shall we begin?

Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10
And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church which is the mother of abominations; and she is the harlot of all the earth.

I'm pretty sure I addressed this. Just in case I didn't, here is my response to this verse.

The mention of two churches in this verse operates on what I have been calling a two-dimensional level. Not spatial dimension, but religious dimensions. Concepts discussed on this level have a simple one or the other dynamic. Something is either good or it is evil. Something is either of God or it is of satan. In this case, a person is either a member of the church of the Lambe of God or he/she is a member of the church of the devil. The distinction made here in 1 Nephi is that anyone who does not belong to the church of the Lamb of God belongs to the church of the devil.

What does it take to belong to the church of the Lamb of God? A belief in Jesus Christ. The same items I mentioned at the start of this thread are what identify a belief in Jesus Christ. As a reminder of what I previously stated: "It starts with a desire to believe, then repent and change what we can, take on His name, and follow the Son."

The members of the church of the devil are those how have no desire to believe, made no attempt to repent and change what they can, have not taken on Christ's name, and do not follow the Son. This is the doctrinal stance of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints on not only "Coming unto Christ" but on the verse you posted above.

By the way, you refer to your Religion as " the Church", and not necessarily Christ's Church. The above quote has 5 examples of the word "Church' or "The Church" , so it is pretty evident of what this false prophet was talking about.

When did I do that? Point out my exact post where I made that statement.

Also, I defined the church of the Lamb of God as it is understood by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Any attempt to identify the church of the Lamb of God with the specific religion of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is an invention of the person making that claim. It does not represent the doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

In other words, you are making up that part.

You have set yourself up as exclusive as it "the Church of JC of LDS founded by Joseph Smith, with over a hundred off-shoots each claiming him as their founder, I might add.

In which post did I make that claim? I'm not interested in dealing with abstracts.

Besides, your claim has no significance in this discussion. I have posted the beliefs of the church I attend. You are free to give rebuttal to my comments. However, if you want to debate the beliefs of the other branches of the LDS church, you will need to discuss it with them.

And, what makes your claim more valid than say the RLDS for example? Are you condemning all those churches as well as all other Christians churches? This character Nephi seemed to be doing that.

That sounds like it would make for a lively discussion . . . in the appropriate thread. While I am not interested in limiting anyone to what they can discuss in any given thread, I joined this thread to discuss what members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believe about "Coming unto Christ." Because it seems to be related to that topic, I have also addressed the concept of two churches and applied my metaphoric model to that discussion.

 

[Ran77]

All you are doing here is making excuses for the fact that you repeated the claim that "I made things up" when of course you did not offer any sort of proof.
​

That is incorrect. I have indeed pointed out which statements you made up and how they did not appear in the post of mine that you responded to. That is proof. All a person has to do is compare the two posts and see that I am correct in my claims.

You think I would want to rejoin your Religion if you are an example? And no, I did not bother to read any of your response.

​

I am not here to discuss people or their motives. My purpose in participating in this forum is to point out when the doctrines and beliefs of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints are misrepresented.

And here's the thing: it doesn't matter if you read my response. What matters is that it is here for others to read. It matters that others can see that I gave a calm, rational, and logical response to you and they can judge for themselves which set of arguments makes the most sense.

 

[mmksparbud]

I guess this is goodbye, or at least until later. I will point out that I have posted what the members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believe about "Coming to Christ" and so far there has been no rebuttal to what I offered. Without any reasonable challenge to my initial statement, what I have offered on the topic appears to be beyond contestation.

This is the topic:

In the Mormon view non-Mormons have not come unto Christ:

The topic is not "what the members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believe about "Coming to Christ"--
but that Mormons believe that Non-Mormons have not come to Christ.
You might wish to rearrange your thoughts to meet the subject.

 

[Ran77]

This is the topic:


The topic is not "what the members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believe about "Coming to Christ"--
but that Mormons believe that Non-Mormons have not come to Christ.
You might wish to rearrange your thoughts to meet the subject.

I have posted multiple times what members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believe about "Coming to Christ" which includes the subset of "Non-Mormons have not come to Christ." And that includes how atheists, agnostics, and other non-believers fit into the picture. That means I have covered the category of "Non-Mormons" in more detail than anyone else in this thread.

Making an obviously flawed and easily disproven statement like this does not help you to refute the doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints on this matter.

 

[mmksparbud]

I have posted multiple times what members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believe about "Coming to Christ" which includes the subset of "Non-Mormons have not come to Christ." And that includes how atheists, agnostics, and other non-believers fit into the picture. That means I have covered the category of "Non-Mormons" in more detail than anyone else in this thread.

Making an obviously flawed and easily disproven statement like this does not help you to refute the doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints on this matter.

The only question I asked you was what had to be done to come into exaltation which you totally evaded, so I just more or less quite reading your posts. My question was on topic but you do not think so. So basically---I did not read most of your posts except this one where you mention the topic and it is not what you say it is, however, you do seem to have answered some of those questions for others---just not mine---thank you for your time. I think I'll just move on to another thread.

 

[He is the way]

Wow, two books that you read to somehow bring you to God's Truths

Let see, you are essentially claiming that "you know" more that God knows.
2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”

God certainly know who are His--but then a Mormon also claims "to know', because he doesn't realize what Faith is.

You said: "Let see, you are essentially claiming that "you know" more that God knows."

Why do you come up with these remarks that have nothing at all with what I said?

 

[Jamesone5]

You said: "Let see, you are essentially claiming that "you know" more that God knows."

Why do you come up with these remarks that have nothing at all with what I said?

Let's take it real slow so you can understand. First the verse:

2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”

Now, when you say "you know" your Church it True you are putting yourself on par with God ,Who is the only one who truly "knows" who are His. You are trying to make God's Truth align with your truth.

Far as I know no one in any of the mainline Christian Churches say "they know" as a Religious practice, but then your Church encourages that. Simply we arrive at it all by Faith as this verse tells us. Some might say in their churches "they know", but it the exception rather that the rule.

Hebrews 11:1 (NKJV)
11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Faith is even spelled out in John 3:16 where it tells us to Believe in Him.

I am not trying to win an argument here, but you should reflect on what you are encouraged to do and say.

 

[Jamesone5]

double post

 

[Jamesone5]

That is incorrect. I have indeed pointed out which statements you made up and how they did not appear in the post of mine that you responded to. That is proof. All a person has to do is compare the two posts and see that I am correct in my claims.


​

I am not here to discuss people or their motives. My purpose in participating in this forum is to point out when the doctrines and beliefs of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints are misrepresented.

And here's the thing: it doesn't matter if you read my response. What matters is that it is here for others to read. It matters that others can see that I gave a calm, rational, and logical response to you and they can judge for themselves which set of arguments makes the most sense.

Let's go back to what was originally said and the questions that were posed.

Jamesone5 said: ↑
So you agree that you have to give essentially 1/3 billing to your Faith in Christ in your testimony?
Or really a Faith [or a knowing] of Christ is through your Church and your prophets, right?
Are you, as Mormons, not "coming unto Christ" in this manner?

Your response:

No part of my response either agreed or disagreed with giving "essentially 1/3 billing to your Faith in Christ." That is something that you made up on your own. Why not respond to my actual comments?

See, sentences from me with one of these "?" behind them are questions. I actually bolded the question marks for you. You can say I agree or you disagree or avoid the question altogether. But you chose another option of saying---That is something that you made up on your own.

As it stands you have accused me of bearing false witness by saying I made things up. A question means just that---no accusation on my part, but a mere question.

Look, I understand how defending a false Religion can be frustrating at times but it helps to respond back by understanding what was said and here--whether or not it was a question.

As you are worried about what others read into it all---it definitely shows frustration on your part. And, that your claim of a calm, rational and logical response is not what you try to make it to be.

As to others "judging" ----why do we not leave that to Christ?

 

[He is the way]

Let's take it real slow so you can understand. First the verse:

2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”

Now, when you say "you know" your Church it True you are putting yourself on par with God ,Who is the only one who truly "knows" who are His. You are trying to make God's Truth align with your truth.

Far as I know no one in any of the mainline Christian Churches say "they know" as a Religious practice, but then your Church encourages that. Simply we arrive at it all by Faith as this verse tells us. Some might say in their churches "they know", but it the exception rather that the rule.

Hebrews 11:1 (NKJV)
11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Faith is even spelled out in John 3:16 where it tells us to Believe in Him.

I am not trying to win an argument here, but you should reflect on what you are encouraged to do and say.

You said: "Now, when you say "you know" your Church it True you are putting yourself on par with God "

That is absolutely false. When a person says they know something it is NOT putting them on par with God or saying that they know more than God knows. A lot of people have said they know that The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints is wrong. Are they saying that they know more than God knows? They are stating their opinion. That being said, it has been proven to me that The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints is Christ's true church.

 

[Jamesone5]

You said: "Now, when you say "you know" your Church it True you are putting yourself on par with God "

That is absolutely false. When a person says they know something it is NOT putting them on par with God or saying that they know more than God knows. A lot of people have said they know that The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints is wrong. Are they saying that they know more than God knows? They are stating their opinion. That being said, it has been proven to me that The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints is Christ's true church.

I suggest you post a verse in the Bible that allows you to say "you know that this particular Restored Gospel Church is Christ's true church"

As you and I both know you can't provide me with such a verse, that takes care of that. What you say is "just their opinion "stands.

As I stated before--God know those who are His----and HIs knowing is hardly dictated by modern Religion or church. Gosh, His own might include members of no modern church at all!

On the other hand one can "know" if something is false or not good by the simple verse right here

1 Thessalonians 5:21 (NKJV)
Test all things; hold fast what is good.

I know the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS is false as I have sufficiently tested it

 

[He is the way]

I suggest you post a verse in the Bible that allows you to say "you know that this particular Restored Gospel Church is Christ's true church"

As you and I both know you can't provide me with such a verse, that takes care of that. What you say is "just their opinion "stands.

As I stated before--God know those who are His----and HIs knowing is hardly dictated by modern Religion or church. Gosh, His own might include members of no modern church at all!

On the other hand one can "know" if something is false or not good by the simple verse right here

1 Thessalonians 5:21 (NKJV)
Test all things; hold fast what is good.

I know the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS is false as I have sufficiently tested it

The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints is not a new church, it is the continuation of Christ's true church restored again to the earth in it's fullness. Yes God does know who are His. They are the obedient:

(New Testament | Hebrews 5:9)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

They are the righteous:


(New Testament | 1 Peter 4:18)

18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

They are those who keep the commandments:

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 5:10)

10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

(New Testament | Romans 6:1 - 16)

1 WHAT shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

 

[Rescued One]

In the Mormon view non-Mormons have not come unto Christ:

Doctrine and Covenants 138
57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

View attachment 269670

The missionaries knock on your door or stop to speak to you outdoors to give you the opportunity to become a Mormon so you can "come unto Christ."

Mormonism:

How to "Come unto Christ."

"Every member of the Church, upon accepting the baptismal covenant, becomes a disciple who has promised to stand as a witness of Jesus Christ at all times in any place he or she may be in.2 The purpose of our witness is to invite people to come unto Him.

"All of us should be intensely interested in learning how to issue that invitation effectively. We know from experience that some will not respond. Only a few responded when the Savior Himself offered this invitation during His mortal ministry. But great was His joy in those who recognized His voice. And great has been our joy when those we have invited have come unto Him...


"... those I know who have truly come unto Him make covenants to obey and to follow Him. It may begin by keeping simple commitments, such as reading the Book of Mormon or going to a sacrament meeting. It must come out of their faith that Jesus is the Christ and the Savior. When they keep the commitment out of that faith, they feel something. They may not be able to identify the feeling in words, but they feel better. Obedience, even in small things, brings that blessing from God. And in time they begin to feel a repentant heart and with it a desire to make the covenant of baptism, to take the Savior’s name upon them, and to be cleansed from sin."
President Henry B. Eyring, Come Unto Christ
Jesus Christ, The Son of God

D&C 20
58 But neither teachers nor deacons have authority to baptize, administer the sacrament, or lay on hands;

59 They are, however, to warn, expound, exhort, and teach, and invite all to come unto Christ.

 

[Rescued One]

Salt Lake City didn't exist at the time this verse was given. Which means your attribution is flawed. Not only that, but your statement is not what we believe. It is a misrepresentation of our beliefs.

You don't know what each Mormon believes. And Mormons have often misrepresented their church's teachings, whether by accident or purposefully.

I asked one of your missionaries what 1 Nephi 14:10 means after explaining what it was saying to me. He agreed with me; his companion did not disagree. Go ahead and disagree. Your disagreement means nothing.

1 Nephi 13: 6-8 describes the physical attributes of "this great and abominable church (founded by the devil)"that had the Bible before Joseph Smith was even born.

What you are told to believe now is not what your scripture says and not what Joseph Smith believed and taught.

I [Joseph] answered the questions which were frequently asked me, while on my last journey but one from Kirtland to Missouri, as printed in the Elders' Journal, Vol. 1, Number 2, pages 28 and 29, as follows:

First--"Do you believe the Bible?"

If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do.

Second--"Wherein do you differ from other sects?"

In that we believe the Bible, and all other sects profess to believe their interpretations of the Bible, and their creeds.

Third--"Will everybody be damned, but Mormons?"

Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness.

A transcript of Joseph Smith's "FAQ" (from History of the Church, Vol.3, Ch.3, p.28-30)

I was taught to memorize D&C 93:24 when I was a member of your church:

D&C 93
24 And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;

Verse 25 says:

25 And whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning.

Can truth change according to D&C 93:24?

"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'harlot of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces... as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act. If any penitent believer desires to obtain forgiveness of sins through baptism, let him beware of having any thing to do with the churches of apostate Christendom, lest he perish in the awful plagues and judgments, denounced against them. The only persons among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people who have authority from Jesus Christ to administer any gospel ordinance are those called and authorized among the Latter-day Saints. Before the restoration of the church of Christ to the earth in the year 1830, there have been no people on the earth for many generations possessing authority from God to minister gospel ordinances. We again repeat. Beware of the hypocritical false teachers and imposters of Babylon!"
- The Seer, Vol.2, No.4, p.255


"The present Christian world exists and continues by division. The MYSTERY of Babylon the great, is mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, and it needs no prophetic vision, to unravel such mysteries. The old church is the mother, and the protestants are the lewd daughters. Alas! alas! what doctrine, what principle, or what scheme, in all. What prayers, what devotion, or what faith, `since the fathers have fallen asleep,' has opened the heavens; has brought men into the presence of God; and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to an innumerable company of angels? The answer is, not any: `There is none in all christendom that doeth good; no, not one.'
- Apostle John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.811