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Featured MORE RAPTURE QUESTIONS

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by WailingWall, Jun 24, 2017.

  1. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The word "dispensation" is found in the Bible.

    The word "fish" is found in the Bible, but that does not mean you can breath underwater.

    The word "horse" is found in the Bible, but that does not mean you can pull a heavy chariot.

    The word "demon" is found in the Bible, but that does not make you are a fallen angel.


    A pharmacy dispenses medication.
    The Apostle Paul dispensed the Gospel.


    Eph_1:10  that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.

    Eph_3:2  if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you,



    How can you get 7 or more "dispensations" of time, when the word is not found 7 times in the whole Bible?

    .
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2017
  2. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    baberean2,

    1. The word trinity is not in the Bible but it doesn't mean there is no such thing.

    2. The Apostle Paul said "I die daily" but he didn't make a plain statement that it meant physically or spiritually, but it means one or the other.

    3. James 2:2 says if any man sins he has an advocate with the father....
    1 John 3:9 says whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin.
    These paradoxes have to have a context to understand or else they would remain a contradiction.
    There are no such things as different denominations or fancy names but it doesn't mean they are all bad or not at all biblical.

    4. There are things that are considered types but not necessarily wrong but at the same time are not a true Bible type that has the original and then the latter such as the First and Second Adam and Abraham and his son with the Father and Christ.

    5. Covenant theology basis are two covenants, being the Old and New, works and no works concerning salvation.
    They also understand the different ways God dealt with men in different ages. This is the aspect that covers the rules of living and stewardship of certain times.

    6. Dispensation all thinkg makes it easier to understand many details and can help aid in better organizing and understanding the Bible and it gradual unfolding of the redemptive plan of God for man.
    You would have to admit there are certain things you might do to help keep it organized and easier to remember.

    7. There is probably no school of thought that is full proof and all can have extremes and this is what can be harmful at times in a few contexts to interpreting the whole Bible.
    To me it is important to rightly divide the word which involves many things.
    History, the customs of that time, certain cultural idioms of that time and covenants whether personal to an individual or a person for the whole world such as Noah or with a nation such as the Patriarchs and a physical nation such as Israel or the church whether it lasts for a short time or forever.

    8. The truth is a person can be just as wrong with or without using a school of thought. This is why we all have to be like a true Berean and see whether or not what is represented to us is true or not.

    9. The Jews under the law of Moses was a theocracy and a dispensation in the context of a stewardship. The stewardship goes in conjunction with this covenant.
    This basic principle is the same as for Paul.

    10. You believe in spiritual Israel to the extreme which is not according to the context of the scripture so you are just as wrong as a dispensationalist that goes to the extreme.
    You understand the Old Covenant was abolished at Calvary and the New Covenant replaced it.
    The New Covenant for the whole world was the plan of redemption before the foundation of the world Ephesians 1:4. So the NC was going to come to pass whether the Jews accepted it or not.
    Jeremiah 31:31-34; the Jews were the only ones officially offered the NC because the Gentiles had no covenant Ephesians 2:11-12.
    The NC came in at the cross but acceptance of the NC by the Jewish nation would have brought the KoH reign in and Christ would have ruled as Messiah. That is why they were looking a conquering Savior, but sadly they forgot about repentance.
    Isaiah 9:6 said that the government would be on the shoulders of the child who was the Messiah and shows it was to happen in Jesus ministry but it didn't because of non-repentance of the nation of Israel.
    The covenant promises rejected because of failure to repent was why Christ pronounced judgement on the nation which happened at 70 A.D.
    This ended the Kingdom program for Israel, but only temporarily since the covenants with Israel were and are eternal.
    I've showed you the scriptures on this and you still don't want to believe.

    11. The covenants for Israel the nation in the earthly kingdom are eternal and are not transferred to the church concerning the land and the Kingdom position of authority.
    This is the very reason you have to make up the spiritual Israel theory.

    12. Romans 2 is talking directly to the Jew and defining the true Jew is one inwardly not because they were God's chosen people outwardly. V24 bears this out; for the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you as it is written.

    13. God gave the example of the uncircumcised gentile keeping the law then his uncircumcision would be counted for circumcision or righteousness.
    The Gentiles were not even under the law but God was still fair and not a respector of persons when it comes to salvation.
    Verse 29 shows a true Jew was one inwardly with circumcision of the heart in the spirit and not the letter.
    The church are spiritual Jews in being saved.
    This gives no reason or implication to make a whole doctrine on i and that is what you do.

    14. Of course, you have to bring in the grafting in the olive tree in to further your theory.
    Romans 9 is your basis of just a handful of Jews will be saved and of course the Jewish remnant will be there and so the whole nation will not be saved.

    15. How could Israel be blinded until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in and at the same time be nothing but a believing remnant that is only Judah as you believe?

    16. How could Christ come out of the Heavenly Mt. Sion and turn away all ungodliness from Jacob and take away their sins which is according to their covenant? It couldn't be the true church for they are not backslidden and don't need to repent.

    17. As concerning the gospel, the nation of Israel and their covenants are enemies for the churches sake: but as touching the election they are beloved for the father's sake. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

    18. The nation of Israel is the apple of God's eye and his promises are true and this is why they are beloved of the father and their gifts and calling are without repentance meaning God made them eternal and they will come to pass no matter what and there is nothing no man or devil or misunderstanding of the word can do about it or stop it. Jerry kelso
     
  3. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    It is not and has never been the entire nation of Israel, that God loves. Did He love Korah and all those Israelites who died in the desert? Where was His love during the Holocaust? No; the notion of an ethnic group having any special position in God's favour today, totally conflicts with Bible teaching and is just another false doctrine of the rapture cult.

    Romans 11:1-2 and 19-23, I say then, Has God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away his people which he foreknew…..You may say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and we Christians stand by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward you, blessing, so keep your faith: otherwise you also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they change their ways, shall be grafted back in: for God is able to graft them in again.

    This Scripture plainly teaches that ONLY Jews who believe the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ will be grafted back into the tree as God's people. Jeremiah 12:14
    God cut off Judah in 586 BC for their continuous and stiffnecked rebellion against His Word, even killing the prophets.

    God still loves His people, His true people who obey Him, and any Jew can be grafted back into the tree, but all Christ-rejecting Jews are NOT GOD'S PEOPLE. The Parable of the Vineyard shows how the ethnic Jewish people have lost their status. Matthew 21:33-45
    Less than 2% of the Jews living in Israel today profess to be a Christian. Only a fool thinks that God loves the apostate, atheistic, gay pride, Christ rejecting Jews. These types are NOT God's people.
    So only saved Jews are part of God's people, but most are saved Gentiles. Only believers in Jesus Christ can claim to be heirs of the promises of God originally given to Israel, but now applicable to every faithful Christian.

    Galatians 3:29 proclaims this truth...And if you be Christ's, then are you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Romans 8:16-17
     
  4. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In God's New Will and Testament, all promises are fulfilled in Christ.

    The OT promises are the promissory clauses of God's Old Will and Testament, and they are both revoked and fulfilled in the promissory clauses of His New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator.

    If you have made your own Will and Testament, you will see that the very first clause states the following, or its equivalent:

    "I HEREBY REVOKE all former Wills and other testamentary dispositions by me at any time therefore made and declare this to be my Last Will and Testament."

    This means that all former wills and testaments, and all of their promissory clauses, are completely null and void. In their place, the promissory clauses of the current last new will and testament are the only ones in force and effect. Any promissory clause which appeared in the old will and testament, but does not appear in the new will and testament, is irrevocably null and void unless another new will and testament is made which re-includes it.

    We see the new promissory clauses of God's New Will and Testament in:

    Matthew 21:33-45
    In this parable, the son, who is identified as the heir, typifies Christ.

    Galatians 3:16
    Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

    2 Corinthians 1:20
    For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

    Hebrews 1:1,2
    1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    and other scriptures. In them, we see that the Heir and Beneficiary is Christ alone, that all of the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Him, and that He is Heir of all things. All includes the OT land promises, the restoration promises, the blessings promises, and all else. There are no exceptions.

    Additional promissory clauses in:

    Romans 8:16-17
    16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
    17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    Galatians 3:29
    And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    make us who are in Christ joint heirs with Him.


    But there are no promissory clauses for anyone who is not in Christ.
     
  5. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    keras,

    1. You are totally out of line.
    God said Israel was the apple of his eye. Zechariah 2:8
    Korah and those Israelites sinned and treated the Lord with contempt.
    Where was his love at the holocaust? Jews weren't even a nation till afterwards.
    It is because of the fall of man that bad things happen to good people.
    God gave free choice to Adam because God made him a creative person.
    He allowed the freewill choice but did not approve of the choice.
    Same principle with the Spanish Inquisition, the Stalin Years and the Holocaust.

    2. Their were certain things in the law that if they performed they would receive certain benefits Exodus 15:26; 23:25-26. It was still conditioned by obedience.
    God still loved the heathen but gave them no covenant. Was he impartial?
    God's reason for the nation of Israel was to bring forth the Messiah and to have a written law to show what his standard of grace for living truly was.
    The Jews were given the best by God for that time of any nation physically and spiritually. Obedience was required and sin was Judgement. They had a blessing and cursing system which the church is not under today.
    The holocaust was not because of sins of the Jewish people such as the nations that oppressed them such as the Babylonian captivity, because of sin etc.
    It was because of evil men who wanted to destroy them.
    If Israel would have still been a theocracy and in obedience then the outcome could have been different.

    3. I do not know all the reasons why God allows somethings at different times and then at other times not.
    But I don't go around asking where God's love was or is.
    When my boy was barely out high school he had a job at a coffee restaurant and was closing out that night and he and his assistant got robbed, held at gunpoint and was tied up for the night in the back room.
    I lived almost 5 hours away and I woke up and felt In my Spirit something was wrong with one of the kids not sure of which one. We prayed in the Holy Gost and eventually was given peace and went back to sleep. The next day called and found that the owners found both of them alright.
    The moment we woke up and started praying was the exact moment they were being tied up.
    On the other hand a few years later he was driving his motorcycle home and a SUV pulled out in front of him and killed him instantly.
    I never asked where the love of God was. My heart was broken and it wasn't his fault. But the outcome is that he was saved which means that he had hope for he went to Heaven.
    For all believers in the holocaust God's love took them home.

    4. All Christians are highly favored and so was Israel the theocracy but it was based upon obedience.
    Israel will receive their promises of the covenants because God promised them he would.

    5. Christians will not all have the same rank as a king, Priests, and rulers in the kingdom. Are you going to cry and say God is not fair because I should have been a general instead of a captain? Come on and be realistic, because positions of rulership will be based on faithfulness and stewardship just like in the parable of the talent.

    6. Your whole thinking sounds like an anti-Semitic slant because you think the church ought to be in their position or at least that is the perception.
    God has his own order of doing things and it is righteous and holy and he said he would set them at the head of the nations and that is where they will be and there's nothing you or anybody else can do about it.
    Even if the church were not raptured Israel would still fulfill their covenants apart from the church.

    7. Nobody is arguing that Christ will have only believing Jews in the nation of Israel and Judah when they become the two sticks into one Ezekiel 37.
    Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:7-13, show that Israel will be saved in the tribulation by the New Covenant.
    There will be a believing remnant Revelation 12:17 called the remnant of her seed who have the testimony of Jesus and they are scattered from the woman.
    The woman is preserved in the wilderness for the last of the tribulation.
    Some of them may be saved or may not be saved it doesn't say.
    V 17 says: And the dragon was wroth with the woman and went to make war on the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
    This could be an illusion to the woman not be saved but it is not clear.
    In any case, the believing remnant is not the woman and vice versa. She is from the woman but not the woman.
    Jeremiah 31:31 says; But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days (after the tribulation) saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts and write it in their hearts and will be their God and they shall be my people. This was supposed to happen the first time with the nation of Israel but they rejected the kingdom message in Christ day Matthew 23:37-39. The parable of the vineyard shows this rejection but was only temporary.

    8. Hebrews 8 is prophetic from Jeremiah's day.
    It shows that the NC had not been made with the whole nation of Israel at the cross.
    It also shows that a NC would be made with not just the nation of Israel but also with the nation of Judah.
    v 10 only addresses the House of Israel after those days God will put his laws into their hearts and minds and will forgive their sins.
    The believing remnant will already be saved in the middle of the tribulation Revelation 12:17.
    If you believe that Judah is the believing remnant then that sets up even more of the truth of how Judah and Israel will become one stick and one nation forever.
    Revelation 1:7 says they shall look upon him whom they pierced. This will be on the Day of the Lord.
    I think you need a new set of eyes of what is happening in prophecy today to understand what is going to happen in the future with Israel in the future and the church as well. Jerry kelso
     
  6. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    jgr,

    1. No one is arguing that we don't inherit all things such as salvation or the kingdom.

    2. We will be Kings and Priests and Rulers in the kingdom to come.
    However, positions of authority will be different and will be according to faithfulness and stewardship. The parable of the talents shows this.
    As far as Israel and their nation and their earthly calling are eternally unconditional when the whole nation will be obedient and this will happen at the Day of the Lord because the restoration of Israel will precede the kingdom and then Israel and Judah will become one stick and one nation forever Ezekiel 37:16-28 and they become the head of the nations on earth where Jerusalem will become capital and out of Zion shall come forth the law Isaiah 2:2-4 and the nations will come to celebrate the feasts Zechariah 14:16. Holiness will be in Jerusalem and Judah Zechariah 14:21.

    3. Galatians 3:16-19 is about salvation and things spiritual not the position at the head of the nations.
    Your will and Testament does not disannull Israel's eternal promises for them and it doesn't mean that those promises transfer to the church. You are taking scripture out of context.

    4. Jeremiah 31:31-34 said the NC was to happen for Israel. This was to happen at the time of Messiah Luke 1:67-74.
    Israel rejected the Kingdom message Matthew 23:37-39.
    Hebrews 8:7-13 is prophetic and shows the physical nation of Israel and Judah will be given the NC and that was after the Day of Pentecost.
    This also shows the two sticks of Israel and Judah will become one stick forever as in Ezekiel 37:16-28.
    There is no scripture that says the church becomes physical earth.
    Your replacement theory is just that, a theory and not scriptural.
    This is why the spiritual Jew theory has to be concocted up and wrenched out of context.
    The restoration of the land is with Israel Genesis 12:3; Matthew 5:5; and not the church.
    Both the land for Israel Genesis 12-15 and Ezekiel 37-16-28 and the Davidic kingdom 2 Samuel 7:13-16 and 1 Chronicles 28:1-8; Romans 11:25-29 are eternal covenants. Scripturally you are wrong. Jerry kelso
     
  7. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jerry,

    This has nothing to do with physical Israel. Physical Israel does not appear as an heir of any physical bequests in the promissory clauses of the New Will and Testament.

    It has to do strictly with who is the Heir, and what does He inherit. And that is Christ, and He inherits everything. No exceptions. Under the promissory clauses of the New Will and Testament, He is the heir of all things (Hebrews 1:1,2).

    You need to reread what it is that a New Will and Testament means. And check your own for confirmation.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2017
  8. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    jgr,

    1. Sorry, but you are confused because of not putting the contexts together correctly.

    2. I know what a New Testament ament and a will is, but there is no scripture that plainly so or is a clear implication that the church will be at the head of the nation or that they will have a King named David or that the capital of the church will be the earthly Jerusalem or that nations will come celebrate the feasts in Jerusalem which will be the church's home.
    There is also nowhere that says the church will be the twelve Jewish tribes of Israel as in Revelation 7.

    3. The problem with your theory is that you base it o not the on earth who inherits all things in generalizations.
    However, in the scriptures that you use such as Galatians and Roman's are all about spiritual blessings and salvation.
    So you are taking them all, including your basis of the one who inherits all thing to prove replacement theology and you are dead wrong and are not rightly dividing the word.
    Generalizations and straw men on your part prove this to be true. Jerry kelso
     
  9. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jerry,

    None of the cited fulfillment scriptures enumerate or draw any distinctions between types of blessings or feasts or tribes or Jerusalem or anything else. They simply make blanket declarations about the Heir and His inheritance:
    Who: Christ
    What: All things

    You're attempting to use replacement theology in reverse to replace the unambiguous NT promissory clauses of the New Will and Testament with OT promissory clauses of the Old Will and Testament. The old is "decayed and vanished away" (Hebrews 8:13), never to reappear, irrevocably replaced by the New; the ultimate example of Wills and Testaments in operation; in this case, Divine operation.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2017
  10. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    jgr,

    1. Once again you can't rebut the scriptures and their context I gave so you pick out a couple of scriptures that you wrench out of context.

    2. You are correct that your scriptures have nothing to do with tribes, feasts, or Jerusalem and David as king over Israel and the law going out of Zion and Israel being at the head of the nations. However, the eternal covenants for the nation of Israel in the kingdom are in the scriptures and all you do is ignore them.

    3. The Mosaic law has been replaced by the New Covenant.
    That has nothing to do with the Kingdom program with Israel and you can't prove it without twisting the scriptures.

    4. The Kingdom program ended with Israel in Jesus day when they rejected the Messiah by not repenting Matthew 23:37-39.
    Acts 1:6-7; the disciples ask when the kingdom would be restored and Jesus said it wasn't for them to know and only the Father knew.
    The earmarks of Israel is all through Revelation of going through the tribulation the 144,000 Revelation 7, the AOD Revelation 11, the Sun Clothed Woman, the believing remnant Revelation 12, those who sing the Song of Moses and the Lamb Revelation 15, but the scriptures show the church is raptured to Heaven Revelation 4:1 and in Heaven beginning to the end 5:9-10; 11:18; 19:7-10.
    So you are wrong and just giving your opinion.
    You are only right in your wrong analysis that has nothing to with Kingdom promises.

    5. The Bible says we are blessed and set in heavenly and high places and salvation is ours. This is from the Abrahamic Covenant.
    The Abrahamic Covenant dealt with the land and nations being blessed through them Genesis 12:3. It also dealt with salvation by grace Romans 4:1-5.
    The Davidic Kingdom was different and from the line of David.
    It was unconditionally eternal which means it has to happen 2 Samuel 7:13-16; 1 Chronicles 28:1-8 for the gifts and callings are of Israel are without repentance Romans 11:29.
    The scriptures you gave were for the Abrahamic Covenant and not the Davidic Covenant.
    You are wrong and have no Biblical basis to your theory. Jerry kelso
     
  11. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jerry,

    The OT covenants (Abrahamic, Davidic, any other) are the promissory clauses of the OT. If they cannot be found explicitly repeated or declared to be fulfilled in the NT, they are null and void. If promissory clauses associated with them are found in the NT, then those are certainly in full force and effect.

    So you agree that the Abrahamic promissory clauses, which include the land and restoration promises to national Israel, are completely fulfilled in Christ in the NT? (Matthew 21:33-45, Galatians 3:16, 2 Corinthians 1:20, Hebrews 1:1,2).

    We can discuss the Davidic promissory clauses further.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2017
  12. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Jesus Christ is the ultimate fulfillment of Israel.

    He is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15.

    In Matthew chapter 21 Christ reveals that the son is the "heir" to the land.
    He also said the kingdom would be taken from those who reject the "chief cornerstone" and it would be given to another nation bearing fruit.
    In 1 Peter 2:4-10, Peter reveals who is that Holy nation who accepts the "chief cornerstone".


    He is the seed promised to Abraham through which all of the families of the earth would be blessed in Genesis 12.
    This is confirmed by Paul in Galatians 3:16.


    The Sinai Covenant with Israel was not eternal, because as you have said the New Covenant made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13.
    The temporary nature of the Old Covenant is found in Galatians 3:16-29.


    On the Day of Pentecost Peter made it clear that Christ was the seed promised to David.


    Those who founded your doctrine claimed the "Church Age" or the "Age of Grace" would come to an end 7 years before the Second Coming of Christ.
    This is one of the greatest errors of your doctrine.
    This is confirmed by the "eternal" nature of the New Covenant in Hebrews 13:20 and we also have those under the Blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11.


    The Church is made up of those who place their faith in the finished work of Calvary.
    (Hebrews 12:22-24)


    Nobody will come to salvation outside of the Church, during a future time.

    .
     
  13. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    jgr,

    Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic law Matthew 5:17 but it doesn't mean we live by that law. Why? Because we are now under the New Covenant.
    In that law we're types and shadows and he fulfilled them but it doesn't mean we perform them.
    Even the moral laws we perform in the New Covenant are not in the same context as the Mosaic law.

    2. Jesus is the heir to all things but it is up to him how he dispenses positions of authority and they are based on faithfulness in stewardship in the kingdom and the same goes for the nation of Israel.
    However, the KoH reign in the specific place of the nation of Israel is unconditionally eternal because God promised.
    The conditioned was repentance
    and God knows the generation of the Gentiles comes in they will repent! Romans 11:25-29.
    They have to repent for they are backslidden and their nation will be trodden down under the feet of men just like the first time Matthew 5:4,13.
    This is not and could never be the church for the gates of hell shall never prevail against it and Israel has been and will be the only nation trodden under the feet of men. The true church is victorious and not trodden down. The professing and backslidden Christian are different and not part of the true church.

    3. Matthew 21:33-44 is spoken to the Jews that killed Jesus the heir of the vineyard.
    The nation bringing forth fruits is the church for today and deals with salvation and spiritual things not the kingdom program.
    Galatians 3:16-29. Read the whole context and you will find that the promissory clause as you call it is about salvation because the law could not give spiritual life but the son could.
    It has nothing to do with the Kingdom program with Israel the physical nation.

    4. 2 Corinthians 1:20 and Hebrews 1:1-2 is just your opinionated conclusion and wrong conclusion.
    Hebrews was written to the New Covenant Jews to contrast the Old and New Covenants.
    It is not a dissertation on the Kingdom program with the Jews.
    Hebrews 1:8 is the scepter of righteousness is the scepter of the kingdom is talking for Christians back then and today but the kingdom reign is not today physically. That chapter is all about us being heirs of salvation both Jews and Gentiles today.

    5. The scriptures you gave nothing about the land restoration in it for the nation of Israel.
    You need to learn the whole context instead of a few verses and the wrong understanding of the passages.
    You are not reconciling the scriptures together properly. Instead you take a key word like inherits all things and make up a whole scenario which is wrongly dividing the word. Jerry kelso
     
  14. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    jgr,

    Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic law Matthew 5:17 but it doesn't mean we live by that law. Why? Because we are now under the New Covenant.
    In that law we're types and shadows and he fulfilled them but it doesn't mean we perform them.
    Even the moral laws we perform in the New Covenant are not in the same context as the Mosaic law.

    2. Jesus is the heir to all things but it is up to him how he dispenses positions of authority and they are based on faithfulness in stewardship in the kingdom and the same goes for the nation of Israel.
    However, the KoH reign in the specific place of the nation of Israel is unconditionally eternal because God promised.
    The conditioned was repentance
    and God knows the generation of the Gentiles comes in they will repent! Romans 11:25-29.
    They have to repent for they are backslidden and their nation will be trodden down under the feet of men just like the first time Matthew 5:4,13.
    This is not and could never be the church for the gates of hell shall never prevail against it and Israel has been and will be the only nation trodden under the feet of men. The true church is victorious and not trodden down. The professing and backslidden Christian are different and not part of the true church.

    3. Matthew 21:33-44 is spoken to the Jews that killed Jesus the heir of the vineyard.
    The nation bringing forth fruits is the church for today and deals with salvation and spiritual things not the kingdom program.
    Galatians 3:16-29. Read the whole context and you will find that the promissory clause as you call it is about salvation because the law could not give spiritual life but the son could.
    It has nothing to do with the Kingdom program with Israel the physical nation.

    4. 2 Corinthians 1:20 and Hebrews 1:1-2 is just your opinionated conclusion and wrong conclusion.
    Hebrews was written to the New Covenant Jews to contrast the Old and New Covenants.
    It is not a dissertation on the Kingdom program with the Jews.
    Hebrews 1:8 is the scepter of righteousness is the scepter of the kingdom is talking for Christians back then and today but the kingdom reign is not today physically. That chapter is all about us being heirs of salvation both Jews and Gentiles today.

    5. The scriptures you gave nothing about the land restoration in it for the nation of Israel.
    You need to learn the whole context instead of a few verses and the wrong understanding of the passages.
    You are not reconciling the scriptures together properly. Instead you take a key word like inherits all things and make up a whole scenario which is wrongly dividing the word. Jerry kelso
     
  15. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jerry,

    We need to be very focused and specific.

    What NT Scripture can you cite that names national Israel as the heir to physical land?
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2017
  16. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    There is very little in the NT about the holy Land. Romans 9:24-26 states it will be in the very place the Israelites were told they were no longer His people, there, every faithful Christian, will be told they are the Sons of the Living God.
    This accords with several OT statements, like Psalms 37:29 The righteous shall possess the Land and will live there forever.
    But many OT prophesies are specific about Israel and Judah's second Exodus. Isaiah 11:11, Jeremiah 31:23-28, Ezekiel 39:25-29

    This anomaly is reconciled in two ways; By the Gentile Christians becoming the Israel of God, Galatians 6:16, and by the fact of genetic dispersion in the 100+ generations since Abraham, means that every person alive today does have some of his genes.
    There are also prophesies like Isaiah 66:21, where it says: God will take some of those people from every race, nation and language, to serve Him as Levites. Revelation 5:9-10
    As Ezekiel 34:11-16 makes clear; it is the Lord's sheep, His followers, John 10:16, who inherit the Land.
    To make ethnicity a requirement for being the people of God, totally contradicts the teachings of Jesus. John 3:16
    Matthew 16:24 Jesus came to save the lost sheep of Israel and He did that through His Apostles. Now; we Christians are those sheep, still scattered, but soon to gather and live in all of the holy Land. Psalms 107, Hosea 11:10-11, Zephaniah 3:16-20, Jeremiah 31:8-9, Psalms 50:5, Isaiah 49:8-23, +
     
  17. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I concur with much of that. However, it is Christ who inherits the land, according to (Matthew 21:33-45, Galatians 3:16, 2Corinthians 1:20, Hebrews 1:1,2).
     
  18. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    And we are Christ followers. We are His Priests and Governors on earth. Revelation 5:10

    Did you read the scriptures that describe the great migration of the Lord's Christian people into all of the holy Land, soon after all that area is cleared by the Lord's Day of wrath?
    Here's a few more; Psalms 107, Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:1-31, Zechariah 8:1-8
     
  19. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    jgr,

    [Staff edit].

    2. That Abomination of Desolation and the ceasing of the sacrifices are Jewish not the church.

    3. I have already shown you specifically in Revelation the 144,00 that are Jews of Israel's tribes and how they are redeemed from earth and from among men Revelation 7:4-8; 14:1-5.
    They were first sealed after the 6th seal for protection through the trumpet judgements Revelation 9:4.
    They are raptured to God and his throne as the manchild because Revelation 12 is the things thereafter Revelation 4:1 and according to the time factor of the book of Revelation Revelation 1:19.
    The sun clothed woman is Israelaccording to the description of the moon under her feet and her head of a 12 star crown which is an allusion back to Joseph and Jacob's time Genesis 37:9.
    The woman is in travail which is the time of Jacob's trouble which is never used of the church but always of Israel.
    Revelation 12 is in the days of the Seventh trumpet which is in the middle of the tribulation when the mystery of God is finished Revelation 10:7. The mystery of God is not the second advent for all old testaments knew about it. It the the accuser of the brethren being banished from Heaven forever Revelation 12:10.
    Revelation 12:17 is the remnant of the woman's seed that is scattered.
    Seed denotes birth and the other half of the seed was the man child who was caught up unto God and his throne.
    Revelation 14:1-5 find the raptured 144,000 in Heaven which is the Heavenly Mt. Sion before God and his throne redeemed from earth and from among men.
    Revelation 15:1-2 the Jewish martyrs go to Heaven and sing the song of Moses and the Lamb.

    4. I have shown you specifically that the church is in Heaven before, during, and at the end
    Revelation 4:1; 5:9-10; 11:18;
    19:7-10.

    5. The promises of the land for Israel are found in Genesis 15:18; Ezekiel 48:1-29; Zechariah 8:20-23.
    These are eternal just like Genesis 12:1-3.
    Matthew 5:5; Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth. This was about the land to inherit for a Jew in Jesus day when they would inherit the kingdom.
    Luke 1:67-75 all about the nation of Israel being free from their enemies and the Messiah heading the Kingdom.
    This is part of the eternal covenant and oath from Abraham and to perform the mercies promised to the Jews fathers. There is no New Testament church in there.
    And that oath oath which he swore unto Abraham includes the land Genesis 12:1-3.
    I just showed you the earmarks of Israel in Revelation and that the church is not even on the earth.

    [Staff edit].

    Jerry kelso
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 9, 2017
  20. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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