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Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by WailingWall, Jun 24, 2017.

  1. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

    New Zealand
    Maybe I misread you about the Millennium reign. We are agreed on there being one to come, soon after all that is prophesied to happen before Jesus Returns, has taken place.

    Do not confuse our Christian right to God's help and blessings by prayer and supplication, in the spiritual realm: with the idea of physically going to heaven. That idea is never stated, is refuted by Jesus and contradicts all the prophesies about what God actually does plan for His people.
  2. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. You did misread but that is alright.
    Ephesians 1:3 has nothing to do with going to Heaven and I explained that to.

    2. My question is why are you offended at Israel having an earthly calling that's distinctly different than the church?
    What is your reasoning that the church has to go through the tribulation when they are being trained for rulership training in the KoH reign on earth right now?
    Jerry kelso
  3. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

    New Zealand
    The 'offence' is not mine; it is the Lord's, - against ethnic Israel. Judah will be Judged and punished, many prophesies prove that and only a remnant will remain. Isaiah 29:1-4 This truth precludes them from having much, if anything to do later.
    I know why you must have a separate ethnic Israel, so as to make the rapture theory work. But the idea is wrong and so is the Two People, Two Promises doctrine. There is irrefutably only one people of God.

    I have already pointed out Revelation 12:14 where the faithful Christians are taken to safety during the GT. Those Christians who violated the Covenant, Daniel 11:32, will experience the GT for refinement.
    Rulership training? Explain this; where and what, please.
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2017
  4. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. You are wrong on every point.

    2. Rulership training is found in 2 Timothy 2:12; If ye suffer ye shall reign.
    This is right now in the church age not the GT.
    1 Corinthians 6 talks about saints ruling the earth and even Angels.
    I have given this scripture multiple times.

    3. The faithful Christians in Revelation 12:14 is the Sun Clothed Woman which is Israel because the remnant is from her seed v 17. The remnant is only used of the nation of Israel and never the church for the gates of hell shall never prevail against the church and since the remnant is only used of the Jews the Sun Clothed woman cannot be the church like amillennialists believe.

    4. Daniel 11:32; And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatterys. This says nothing about refinement for the wicked.
    Zechariah 13:8 two parts therein shall be cut off meaning death.

    5. The Lord is not against ethnic Israel. He is against their disobedience and sin.
    God said he would not completely cast them out forever like he did Saul 2 Samuel 7:13-16; He shall build an House for my name and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom forever.
    I will be his Father and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
    But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul whom I put away before thee.
    And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established forever before thee: thy throne shall be established forever.
    Chastened by the rod of men is all the Jewish nations oppressors that actually started with Egypt and Assyria, then Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome and the Revised Roman Empire and the Antichrist kingdom who is of the seventh and is the eighth Revelation 17:10-11.

    6. Israel and Judah both will be punished and no one is denying that but God will bring them out of the heathen countries and they won't defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions, but I will save them out of all their dwelling places wherein they have sinned and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people and I will be their God.
    And David my servant shall be their King over them: and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgements, and observe my statutes and do them.

    7. Spiritually there is just one people and that is one promise concerning Salvation Galatians 3:19.
    This has nothing to do with two different callings and promises between the nation of Israel at the head of the nations of the earth with Israel as the capital and the rest of the saints as Kings, priests, and Rulers throughout the Kingdom. You can't prove by scripture your position without changing the context or making up something.
    God said he would give David an eternal kingdom and his mercy would not depart forever such as in Saul's case.
    David's line was still going in Jesus day despite disobedience and they are still in disobedience
    but they will and have to obey in the tribulation because it is prophesied and the covenants are condition by obedience. If this were not so the covenants for them would not be eternal. They are unconditionally eternal so they have to come to pass which means they will and have to obey.
    Jerry kelso
  5. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

    New Zealand
    This shows how you still fail to see the difference between the House of Judah and the House of Israel. The prophets carefully distinguish between them; in more that 160 prophesies.
    So the prophesies specifically about Judah, the Jewish people, will come to pass and only a remnant will survive.
    Those for Israel, all the promises and blessings to the Lord's Israelites of God, His born again Christian people, will all happen as well. Galatians 6:16, Acts of the Apostles 15:17...all the Gentiles I claim for My own... John 10:16 Other sheep I have, not of this fold....

    Now Jerry Kelso, how do you reconcile those two different outcomes, if you say Judah is all of Israel?
    Remember; Creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. Romans 8:19 The sons of God cannot be the just Jews! A few, yes, but the majority are Christians from every race, nation and language.

    The rest of #464 serves to show others here how confused you are and you make conflicting comments with scriptures that don't help your case.
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2017
  6. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. The twelve tribes originated from Jacob's sons.

    2. The Kingdoms split under Rehoboam because Solomon hadn't kept the covenant and statutes etc. 1 KIngs 11:11.
    Verse 13 shows that God gave one tribe for David's sake and to keep the Davidic line going.
    Jereboam tool Israel the northern kingdom into idolatry. Depending on context sometimes the whole nation was Israel and sometimes it pertained to just the Northern kingdom. It's capital was Samaria.
    Under Rehoboam was the southern kingdom which had Jerusalem as its capital and was called the house of Judah.
    Christ is the lion of Judah so I understand the difference in that respect.

    3. John 10:16 was spoken by Jesus under the Mosaic law period and of the KoH and the KoG message to Israel only Matthew 10:6-7.
    John 10:16, historically was about the house of Israel who would be saved and hear God's voice and them and Judah would be one fold with one shepherd.
    Jesus gave the discourse of the Good Shepherd and healing the blind man after Samaria rejected him.
    This goes with Ezekiel 37:16-28 and the two sticks being United as one stick, one nation in the land of Israel and one king will be over them and they shall no more be two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms anymore at all.
    The land of Israel is the land Jacob gave to them and where the father's dwelt and where their offspring would live forever. This is not talking about the culmination of the church just because we had no covenants in this context historically.
    It could be a double reference prophetically to the church as far as salvation and the New Covenant and church age but not the whole context of Israel's physical uniting as promised by God.
    This doesn't mean the Judah is not the believing remnant.

    4. Revelation 12:14 shows Israel will be preserved in the wilderness for the last 3.5 years of the tribulation to be nourished.
    They will not necessarily be saved but will eventually when they recognize the suffering Savior coming in the clouds Revelation 1:7 and God forgives their sin and God puts his laws into their minds and hearts and forgives their sin and this covenant is made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah Jeremiah 31:31:34 and Hebrews 8:7-13.
    Acts 15:14-17 God did take out of the Gentiles a people for his name and this pertains to being grafted into the olive tree and the church age.
    The tabernacle of David is spiritually speaking of the component of grace and the Kingdom of God (Salvation) was given to the Gentiles even though believing Jews are a part of the church.
    Paul said in Roman's 11 that even back then there was a remnant of Jews but for the most part the Gentiles were grafted in to make the Jews jealous.
    Acts 15 is just talking about the church age in that context. So this has nothing to do with discontinuing the promises of Israel in the kingdom at the head of the nations. It doesn't annul the promise in Ezekiel 37 of physical Israel and Judah being reunited.

    5. Galatians 6:12-14 shows that physical circumcision or uncircumcision cannot bring salvation.
    The Jews and Gentiles who Walk according to this rule peace be on them and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
    The first part is talking about the Jews and Gentiles in the church. The word "and" separates the Israel of God.
    Many believe that Galatians was part of Hebrews according to verse 6:11 and this would make more sense of the separation when speaking to Jews.
    Spiritually the church can be called Spiritual Israel because of salvation.
    This still doesn't have nothing to do with the church replacing Israel in its position of authority in the Kingdom at the head of the nations.
    Confusion comes when the nation of Israel is replaced by the church and not believing that the House of Israel and the House of Judah won't be united.
    Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:7-13; and Ezekiel 37:16-28 prove that belief wrong. Jerry kelso
  7. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

    New Zealand
    Jerry, your determination to have Judah, all the Jewish people eventually saved and redeemed, leads you to make gross errors in your replies here.
    The other sheep Jesus referred to plainly means Gentile Christians. Of which there are now many millions, whereas just a few thousand Jews are Christian.
    There is no difference between the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of heaven. One and the same.
    It is plain to any unbiased reader, that Revelation 12:14-17 is about the Christian Church....those who keep the Commandments of Jesus.
    Yes, but that ploy didn't work, as we see today. The Jews do still have the opportunity to be grafted back into the Olive Tree of Jesus. Will they? Not according to prophecy or any indications now.
    Now we get to the secret of God, with who are the real House of Israel. God knows who they are; Amos 9:9, and they remain scattered among the nations to this day. They will be judged; Amos 4:12, Ezekiel 20:34-38, and then the remnant of Judah will join with them, as they go into all of the holy Land. Jeremiah 50:4-6
    Yes, there are 12-15 years of the Church age still to run. Much will happen in that time, the prophets tell us all about it. It is our privilege to be here and to be a part of it all.
    This convoluted and biased idea of a separation in the Israel of God, is just put up to support the false rapture to heaven of the church theory. Only those with the escapist notion of a rapture think as you do, those who understand God's plans for His people, know that all Christians are the Israelites of God.
    This statement shows how you just cannot see how it is Christians who will be the kings and priests in the Kingdom. Revelation 5:9-10, 1 Peter 2:9, Isaiah 66:21
    Open your eyes and cease making statements that are patently untrue.
    BTW, you could improve your spelling and grammar, too!
  8. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. The first paragraph is your accusation and your opinion and is not backed up by scripture.

    2. The other sheep being gentiles is your opinion that is not backed by no scripture, just your opinion and speculation, because there are more Gentile Christians than Jewish Christians.

    3. You have disagreed in saying the KoH and the KoG which you didn't back up with any scripture.

    4. Revelation 12:14-17; the sun clothed woman and the remnant you have doing the commandments when the only ones that are said doing the commandments are the remnant.
    You said they were Christians but gave no scripture.

    5. The Jews are being grafted into the olive tree and are a part of the church just like the Messianics understand.
    Our job is to make the nation of Israel jealous for God so they can take their rightful place in the kingdom. This is why they are enemies for the gospel's sake and their gifts and callings are without repentance or unconditional with God.
    Again no scriptural proof from you.

    6. They are scattered and not lost and in the tribulation Elijah is said by some Rabbis to help them find
    their correct tribe.
    Revelation 7 shows the tribes are not scattered in that day.

    7. The rapture doesn't have to happen for Israel to become at the head of the nations. That is your false notion.
    The church has different calling and that is why they are in Heaven.

    8. Escapism is not for Christians in the context of your accusation.
    I have told you more than once the Bible says to occupy till he comes whether at the rapture or the second coming.

    9. You are the only who is not being fair in exegesis.
    You blow smoke more than explain proper context.
    I have caught you more than once not being truthful in context just like Revelation 12:14-17.
    I am not sure where my spelling or grammar is wrong or so bad except when I post late at night. You might want to point something out.
    Either way at least I have scriptural truth to back me up and not loosely printed exegesis. Jerry kelso
  9. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

    New Zealand
    I said that Judah, the Jewish people will be judged and punished in the forthcoming Lord's Day of wrath and only a remnant will be saved.
    Jerry does not agree with this truth because it destroys his precious idea of being floated up to heaven, while the Jews are refined and eventually redeemed on earth.
    He says: wrongly, that I haven't supported with scripture this third and final disaster to the Jewish people. I have and here is another of the many prophesies proving it:

    Jeremiah chapter 13:1-10 Jeremiah is instructed to buy a loincloth. He is then told to hide it near a river. After a long time, he retrieved it, but it was ruined.

    Jeremiah 13:11-27 Thus, I shall ruin the enormous pride of Judah, these people with stubborn hearts, who worship other gods – they will become like that cloth, no good for anything. Hosea 8:14, Jeremiah 8:5-12
    ......I bound all Israel and all Judah to Me, so that they should become a source of renown and praise to Me, but they did not listen. Isaiah 31:6-7
    ....I shall make all who live in Jerusalem drunk..... I shall show no compassion nor refrain from destroying them. Obadiah 12-16

    Pay heed, be not too proud to listen, for it is the Lord who speaks.
    Give glory to God, before the light that you look for turns to darkness.

    If in the depths you will not listen, then weep bitterly for the Lords people are carried off into captivity. [Judah conquered by Babylon and again in AD70] Ezekiel 21:14
    Say to the King and the Queen mother; take a humble seat, for your crowns have fallen. Ezekiel 21:25-27

    The towns in the Negev are besieged, no one can relieve them. Judah has been swept clean away. This is paralleled by Ezekiel 20:46-47, Isaiah 9:18-19, Jer 10:18

    Look up and see! Those people who are coming from the North.
    The Lord’s people, all true Christians, migrating to the Land. Isaiah 41:8-10

    Where is the flock that you were so proud of?

    What will you say when your leaders are missing? When you wonder why this has happened? It is because of your many sins. Isaiah 3:1-3
    Can a Nubian change his skin? No more can you, [Judah] do good, so accustomed are you to doing evil. Isaiah 38-9
    I will scatter you like chaff, before the desert wind. Jeremiah 33:14

    This is your lot – I have decreed this for you, because you have forgotten Me and trusted in false gods. I will bare your shame for all to see. Isaiah 3:16-26
    For your adulteries and shameful deeds – woe to you Jerusalem. How much longer will you be unclean? Nahum 1:12-15

    This is a clear prophecy about the judgement of Judah in ancient times and again, soon to happen, proved by the unfulfilled prophesies here and throughout the Bible.
    Then, the Lord’s faithful Christian people will enter the Land from the North. Isaiah 49:12 They will live there, in peace and security, to prepare for the Return of Jesus.
  10. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

    New Zealand
    The other sheep of John 10:16 are not Jews, as they are not of this flock.
    So they have to be Gentiles and your accusation above casts doubt on your ability to comprehend simple verses.
    BaBeraen , a member here has made this truth clear: they are the one Kingdom. Anyway if you think they are separate Kingdoms, why don't you prove it?
    Revelation 12:17 is clear: it is the 'seed', Galatians 3:29, of the 'woman', those who keep the commandments of Jesus, all Christians: some are taken to safety and some remain. Daniel 11:32 explains how there are two groups of Christians.
    Yes, but only a remnant. A few thousand out of up to 15 million Jewish people in the world. Most Jews still clap their hands to their ears at the mention of Jesus.
    Prophecy says that most will die and the Christian peoples who go to live in all of the holy Land, will be assigned to a tribe. Proved by Isaiah 66:21 and by how the Jews themselves know they are only of Judah and Benjamin.
    Please do NOT post fairy tales. You demand that I present facts and you promote unscriptural fables!
    Nowhere does the Bible say the Church goes to heaven. This is just a Satanic deception.
    That's right, we will be here to welcome Jesus back to earth.
    But it is those who dream of a rapture outta here, who want to abrogate their responsibilities, that I accuse of unchristian and unbiblical beliefs.
    I have yet to see any real proof of your non existent exegesis.
  11. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. I said that Judah and Israel both would be punished and go through the tribulation.
    According to Ezekiel they will be 2 sticks that become one nation forever.

    2. You seemed to think that the believing remnant is Judah and I said they may be.
    The point is that Israel and Judah will be forever as one at the head of the nations.

    3. Their eternal covenants concerning the kingdom were made by God and he obligated to fulfill them when they obey him so they can take their rightful place in the Kingdom.

    4. Read Hosea and you'll find the temporary ceasing of the House of Israel 1:4 and having no more mercy upon the house of Israel but I will utterly take them away.
    Mercy will be on the house of Judah v7.

    5. V 11 children of Judah and Israel will be gathered together and appoint themselves one head and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

    6. V9; ye are not my people and I will not be their God is Israel not the church.
    Hosea backs this up in Hosea 2:21-23 for they will receive mercy at Jezreel which will be at the Battle of Armageddon.
    Hosea 6:1-2 also has to do with Israel being raised up at the Battle of Armageddon.
    God has to restore the house of Israel for he is true to his word. And he will judge and forgive Judah's sin and they will be where the throne will come out of for Christ the Lion of Judah Revelation 5 and will be the King of Kings Revelation 19 and David will be King specifically over Israel Ezekiel 37.

    6. Even though Hosea's burden was Israel the Northern Kingdom, he mentions Judah falling with Israel and Ephraim Hosea 5:5. V 10 has the princes of Judahwould have Wrath poured out on them.

    7. So I don't why you keep thinking that I said Judah won't be punished. You may have to point out what statement I said so I can clarify.

    8. Remember Israel and the church are not the same. The church is always represented as a virgin bride not for a harlot wife.
    Jerry kelso
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2017
  12. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is a rapture for those who are alive and remain shall be caught up in the clouds to Jesus.
    She you are wrong that there is no such thing as a rapture.

    2. 1 Corinthians 15:51 says We shall not all sleep which is a reference to 1 Thessalonians 4:17 those alive and remain.
    But we shall all be changed is Resurrection from mortality to Immortality v 53.
    This is the purpose of the rapture.
    This is separate from the martyrs only in the First Resurrection Revelation 15:1-2, Revelation 20:4-6.

    3. Going back to 1 Thessalonians 4:17; so shall we ever with be the Lord. Where do you think they go? It can't be the earth for the Lord is in Heaven during the tribulation.
    This context is not the Day of the Lord.
    The Thessalonians were being told they missed the rapture and thought the Day of the Lord was at hand.
    Paul told them he never said anything like that or never wrote a letter to that effect 2 Thessalonians 2:2.
    Paul said 2 things had to happen before the Day of the Lord would come.
    The falling away and the man of sin has to be revealed in the temple which is the AOD and calls himself God v 3 & 4.
    So is your reason for no rapture is because you see no literal statement saying that?

    4. Revelation 12:17 is the remnant of the woman's seed.
    This is the believing remnant that have the testimony of Jesus.
    The woman is Israel the nation and is the bulk of the remnant that is preserved in the wilderness for the last 3.5 years of the tribulation.
    So it is impossible to believe that Judah's remnant is all that will be left.
    If this is true then there is no reuniting of the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

    5. Hosea shows Israel as not being God's people but will be at the Day of the Lord because God will show them mercy.
    This is why the woman in the wilderness cannot be the church.
    The true church is no backslidden.

    6. There is one physical KoH reign on earth where Christ has to put down all rule and authority and power v 24 rule till all his enemies are under his feet v 25 and death is destroyed 1 Corinthians 15:26.
    This is why Christ will rule with a rod of iron Psalm 2:9.
    Today there is one physical KoH called earth as the kingdom under the whole Heaven Daniel 7:27.
    Today, there is many kingdoms Christ will overcome when he comes back Revelation 11:15.
    So the 1000 years of the KoH has to happen for these purposes so Christ can give the Kingdom back to God so he can be all in all v28.
    The physical KoH called earth is out of harmony with the universal KoG which is the rest of the universe.
    There are many distinctions between the KoH called earth and The KoG called Heaven where God dwells.
    Because the KoH is a smaller part of the KoG it can be said there is one overall Kingdom called the KoG.
    Berean doesn't want to acknowledge any distinctions between the two at all.

    7. John 10:16 was talking about the unbelieving Jews. This is when the Samaritans rejected Christ.
    The KoH message was only to the Jews and not the Gentiles.
    The prophetic aspect can be in John 10: 17-18 as the church because Christ had to die for the whole world and the KoG according to salvation was given to them. This is not the same as the physical gifts and callings of Israel from the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants.
    You will always be and stay confused because you don't keep the callings of Israel and the church separate. Jerry kelso
  13. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

    New Zealand
    As this is a thread about rapture questions, I will answer only these two, the rest is just a confused jumble of opinion.
    This is why I have to cease this discussion; you don't read what I say properly.
    THERE IS NO RAPTURE TO HEAVEN. There will be a gathering to where Jesus is when He Returns. Just as Matthew 24:31 says.
    The 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 prophecy is plainly and irrefutably about what happens at the Great White Throne Judgment; after the Millennium. Those whos names are written in the Book of life will receive immortality then. Some will be still alive, so won't ever 'sleep' in death and Death will then be no more. Thinking that anyone gains immortality before then, is quite wrong and unscriptural.
    The resurrection of the martyrs killed during the Great Tribulation, Revelation 20:4, happens after Jesus Returns.
    Your dream of going to heaven and becoming immortal before Jesus Returns, is a delusion and cannot happen. Until you and all who have been fooled by this false teaching, realize our actual; Biblical future, you are stuck in the dark.
    Sad, really because scripture is plain about what God does plan for His people, for their good and not harm.
  14. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. You have to cease the discussion because you have no scriptural answer.

    2. Matthew 24:31 is a gathering of the Jewish remnant.
    This doesn't prove there is no rapture at all.
    It is true the Day of the Lord here is not a post-trib rapture but it doesn't mean there is no rapture at all.
    1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is definitely a rapture because we which are alive and remain are caught up from the earth to the clouds to be with the Lord forever.
    The Lord doesn't stay in the clouds, but he goes back to Heaven not the earth because the church and saints gone on before have to be judged for their works to receive rewards Revelation 11:18 and be at the Marriage of the Lamb Revelation 19:7-8. They are also called to the marriage Supper of the Lamb all before they come out of Heaven to go to the Battle of Armageddon Revelation 19:11-15.

    3. 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is the resurrection from mortality to immortality.
    It is a mystery that was not revealed in the Old Testament for the Old Testament doctrine was just the resurrection of the dead John 11:24 and Hebrews 6:2.
    It is talking about flesh and blood cannot inherit the KoG which is where God dwells, not on earth.
    I've already shown that the church and the saints gone on before and even the tribulation martyrs will be in Heaven in time for the Marriage and Marriage Supper of the Lamb Revelation 19:7-10 and I have shown you why as well.

    4. 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 doesn't happen at the GWTJ.
    Exodus 32:33; And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out.
    it appears that every name is in the book of life and can be blotted out. Either way the context is about the sinners judgements for works of sin including rejection of Christ. The saints are not judged for salvation at all.
    The resurrection of the righteous are a 1000 years apart Revelation 20:5.
    Acts 24:15 shows there will be a resurrection of the dead, just and unjust.
    They are raised because they are sinners and will be judged for works of sins.
    This is the context of scripture. Yours is just your perception of what you think the phrase "the book of life" means.
    So you are wrong and out of context. Jerry kelso
  15. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter


    I have heard this claim that the Book of Matthew was written to the Jews on many occasions by those attempting to promote the Two Peoples of God doctrine.

    The problem is that Christ talked about His Church in Matthew 16:18 and the Great Commission to the Church is at the end of Matthew's Gospel.

    The truth is that the Book of Matthew was written to the Jewish Church.

    So much for "Rightly Dividing the Word"...

  16. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

    baberean 2,

    1. Matthew is Jehovah's gospel. It is to the Jews in more detail of the covenant of Abraham which involved salvation and the land.
    The other part was the Davidic Covenant which was the house and throne of David.

    2. The two people doctrine is your false accusation of your false fabrication.

    3. Christ talked about the church and the Great Commission after the Jewish nation rejected Christ Matthew 23:37-39.
    Peter still didn't understand what the plan of redemption of Christ death, burial, and resurrection Matthew 16:21-23 was after Jesus made the proclamation that he would build his church on Peter the rock. Matthew 16:18.

    4. Matthew was written to the Jewish church for that is all there was because the Gentiles had no covenant.
    The nation as a whole was backslidden Matthew 5:4.
    This is why the disciples were told to go to the lost sheep of Israel only.
    Once again you don't know your Jewish history or gradual revelation correctly. Give up and quit going down rabbit trails that lead to nowhere but untruths and deception. Jerry kelso
  17. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    You are supposed to know better than this.

    Christ is the rock, instead of Peter.

    Mat 21:43  "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 
    Mat 21:44  And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder." 
    Mat 21:45  Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them.

  18. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. I think you just want to make up an argument.

    2. You know I believe Christ is the foundation and Peter and the other apostles build on after and those afterwards. Read 1 Corinthians 3:1-11. Peter said he was a lively stone.
    Quit making out like I believe something that is not scriptural when I do.

    3. The Jews did fall on the chief cornerstone and the KoG concerning salvation being propagated was to the Gentiles who had no covenant.
    In Jesus day the Pharisees fit that bill. Got to go! Jerry kelso
  19. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter


    Then say what you mean, instead of...

    "Peter still didn't understand what the plan of redemption of Christ death, burial, and resurrection Matthew 16:21-23 was after Jesus made the proclamation that he would build his church on Peter the rock. Matthew 16:18."

  20. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. I have told you that before in depth and you are just now understanding it?

    2. This explains why you misunderstand the truth about dispensationalism. In doing so you trash the whole train of thought and purpose that is biblical and why it's important.

    3. The word dispensation is in the Bible.
    Paul was given the dispensation of Grace but it doesn't mean he was the only one teaching the gospel of grace which is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.
    Peter and the apostles were doing this before Paul got saved.
    Paul was given the dispensation of Grace in the overall view of what the body of Christ was to be and why and his ministry was strong in that regard to the Gentiles because the Jews did'nt want to hear him.
    4. Even though Paul was a Jew he was not an original apostle before the resurrection.
    He was after the resurrection and one born out of time and was taken to the third heaven.

    5. I believe God furthered his ministry in this capacity so the church would grow greater and make the nation of Israel jealous for him.

    6. I believe Peter was more adequate to the Jews being an original apostle and to help keep the dream alive for the remnant of Grace that Paul talks about in Romans 11.

    7. The remnant of Jews can't be just about having a physical nation only which you seem to think.
    If that were true then the gifts and callings which are eternal for their promises of the Abrahamic covenant and the Davidic covenant would not come to pass.
    This concerns the land and the Kingdom.

    8. The Bible plainly shows that Israel will have a nation with David as King Ezekiel 37:16-28 and that Israel will be the capital of the earth Isaiah 2:2-4 of which the families of the earth will be blessed Genesis 12:3 and celebrate the feasts Zechariah 14:16.

    9. It also shows that the law of this theocracy will go out from Zion Isaiah 2:2-4.

    10. It is not because Israel is better than the church age saints that they will fulfill these covenant promises. It is because God promised it unconditionally when they would all repent as a nation.

    11. The New Covenant was always promised for the world.
    But with the nation of Jews pertaining to the right time has not yet come because in Jesus day they rejected him before the cross.
    The Old covenant was in effect at their time of rejection.

    12. The church was started on the Day of Pentecost which was not the time because God was building the church to make the Jews jealous.

    13. Also, the time of the Gentiles was not up and still isn't. Also, the world hadn't been populated such as today and didn't have the technology that there is today to bind the world together.

    14. You only have to look and see what is happening in the world today with Israel especially to understand that they are hated and will be more hated when they come back to God to know that it is more than just about Israel maintains or having a nation alone.

    15. It will be about the gifts and callings of the covenants conducive to their rightful place in the land and the kingdom
    at the head of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4. Jerry kelso