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Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by WailingWall, Jun 24, 2017.

  1. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1 Ethnicity is not a requirement, but it is God's eternal promise to the nation of Israel.

    2. John 3:16 has to with salvation not the physical KoH reign.
    Even heathens could be saved in the Old Testament and were. Salvation has never been based on ethnicity. To make such a statement makes God a respecter of persons and that is not scriptural.
    The scriptures you use have to basically do with the nation of Israel.
    Gentiles will live throughout the earth but the land of Israel will have specific land in relation to the KoH reign at the Head of Nations where the law will go forth from Zion the eaerthly Jerusalem.
    I have to go back to work. Jerry kelso
  2. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

    New Zealand
    The Heirs of the Holy Land:
    Ephesians 1:11-14 In Christ, indeed, we have been given the heritage, as was decreed in God’s purpose. For it was His will that we who set our hopes in Jesus, should be the ones to make His glory known and praised. [on earth!]
    We Christians have the Seal of the Holy Spirit, which is the pledge of the inheritance that will be ours when God has redeemed His own.

    Romans 8:16-18 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God…..it is the Spirit of adoption, so we can call Him ‘Father’. This affirms that we are God’s children and if children, then heirs, heirs of God’s promises through Christ.
    But we must share His suffering, if we are also to share His glory.

    Ephesians 3:6 Through the Gospel, Gentiles are joint heirs with the Jews, part of the same body, sharers together in the promises of God through Jesus.

    Galatians 3:29 So if you belong to Christ, then you are the issue of Abraham and heirs of God’s promises. [to the Patriarchs]

    Colossians 1:12 We give thanks to the Father who has made us fit to share in the heritage of God’s people in the Kingdom of light.

    It is quite evident that the vast multitude seen in Jerusalem, Revelation 7:9, is far more that the remnant of the Jewish people. Romans 9:27
    Many prophesies make it plain that in the end times there will be a people in God’s holy Land, who will be His people, those who seek the Lord and who know what is right. Isaiah 51:1 Every faithful Christian person.
  3. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. Ephesians 1:11-14; has nothing to do with the inheritance of the country and Nation of Israel on earth.
    We will be Kings, Priests, and Rulers on earth Revelation 5:9-10.
    We are being trained for that rulership training now 2Timothy 2:12.
    The earnest of the inheritance is the gospel of salvation by which we are sealed with that Holy Spitit of promise.
    The redemption of the purchased possession is Heaven where God resides John 14:2-3; Philippians 3:20; Hebrews 11:10, 16; Revelation 21:10.

    2. Roman's 8:16-18; the context is all about spiritual and body glorification that we are joint heirs with Christ not the Holy land on earth. Read Roman's 8:16-25. Read and understand the whole context properly instead of a couple phras s that you go to seed on, which in this case case is being joint heirs with Christ. Bad and wrong hermeneutics on your part.

    3. Ephesians 3:6; this is talking about the mystery of the church because gentiles had no covenant and shows that both Jew and Gentile in one body alike.
    This has nothing to do with the kingdom program with the nation of Israel or the church either one. Your assuming falsely and putting something there that is not there.

    4. Galatians 3:29; I already told you that that context in this passage is about salvation. Read the whole chapter and its context.
    Once again it shows that you are going to seed about Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise by grace along it out of context.

    5. Colossians 1:12; you misquoted it. It reads; Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light.
    Verse 13; who hath delivered us from the power of darkness and hath translated us into the kingdom of his son.
    Now I know these two scriptures relate but the the context of the kingdom of his dear son and inheritance of the saints in light is spiritual and has nothing to do with the physical KoH reign with the Nation of Israel or the Church.
    Again you add to making way for a straw man to be built to prove your position and it doesn't work.

    6. Revelation 7:9 is depart from the great multitude.
    The tribes of the children of Israel are the 144,000 Jews and have nothing to do with the great multitude who are tribulation martyrs and make it to Heaven before the Lamb and the throne not the earth. The Lamb is in Heaven till he comes out of Heaven with saints and angels to fight at Armageddon Revelation 19:11-15.
    So your remnant on earth in Romans 9:27 being Jews and Gentiles is not true.
    The remnant is ones left over on earth. The Great Multitude are Heavenly people who come with Christ to save the remnant.
    You are scripturally wrong because you don't reconcile the scriptures together correctly. Jerry kelso
  4. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. Matthew 21:33-45; parable of men he householder to illustrate Israel's rejection of the KoH reign.
    This was because of not repenting.
    The Lord would get rid of those wicked husbandmen and let out his vineyard to other husbandmen
    Which shall render the fruits in their seasons.
    Israel was to be the the light and salt of the earth Matthew 5:13-16.
    There job was to be a witness of salvation to the world and they failed.
    The Kingdom of God in verse 43 is the spiritual rule of God in ones' heart not the physical KoH reign.
    The church was given the job to be the salt and light of the world.
    You once again wrench the word out of context.

    2. The Kingdom and Land promises are through Abraham and David eternally and are separate from the Mosaic Law which was rules for living and stewardship.
    Once again you assume and add and you are wrong. Jerry kelso
  5. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    What did Paul say about the Abrahamic promise?

    Gal 3:16  Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 

    The promise is "eternal" through the One Eternal Seed, who is Jesus Christ.

    Either Paul is wrong, or you are wrong.

  6. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter


    If the context there is about salvation, then where in the NT is the context about national Israel inheriting the land?
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2017
  7. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. There is only one seed concerning salvation which is Jesus Christ who gave us the New Covenant in his blood Matthew 26:28. Salvation is eternal but it
    has nothing to do with positions of authority in the Kingdom.
    If that is true then everybody will be over the same amount of area which means that one who is more faithful in their stewardship on earth and is better equipped than another means nothing because it wouldn't be fair of God to do that.
    That kind of thought process is just like the PC Crowd.

    2. Paul is not wrong, but he is not talking about the physical Kingdom of Israel's promises on earth.
    You cannot show it in that passage.
    The Abrahamic promise for gentiles is spiritual concerning salvation.
    Shame on such ignoring you f the true context.
    Your assumption on the word seed to include the promises of the earthly calling of Israel is saying God will not keep his eternal covenant through Abraham concerning the nation being saved or be at the head of the nations under the Davidic Covenant

    3. Right now Israel is a nation but are not a saved nation.
    In the tribulation their nation will almost be gone but God will have been he Jewish remnant who are saved but he he rest of the nation will be preserved in the wilderness and will eventually be saved to be eligible for the KoH reign on earth.
    Show me one scripture that says the church has to go through the time of Jacob's trouble and that it has to be purged because they are backslidden from the New Covenant. Show me!!!!!!!!!!!Jerry kelso
  8. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    It has everything to do with the positions of authority in the Kingdom, since Christ is the one in authority.

  9. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. Christ is in authority and so is all Israel at the head of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4 where the law will go out of Zion where Israel lives with Jerusalem as the capital of the earth and the nations will come up for the feasts which are always referenced to Israel Zechariah 14:17-18 and David as King of Israel Ezekiel 37:24 and believers in the church on the earth Revelation 5:9-10 and Revelation 2:26-27 ruling with a rod of Iron just like Christ Psalm 2:9.
  10. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    Guess I gotta answer my own question:

  11. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. Your nowhere statements nowhere because it is not true.

    2. The Eternal Covenants were firmly established because the Jews were to bring the Messiah to fruition so he would be the Savior of the world.
    Abraham was promised to have a nation through which the families of the earth would be blessed Genesis 12:1-3 not the church.
    In the last days Zechariah and others says the same thing.

    2. The Davidic Covenant was firmly established in 2 Samuel 7:13-16 and 2 Chronicles 28:1-7.
    These were forever and even though God said he would desolate both Judah and Israel he would also save them.

    3. Paul knew the gifts and callings of Israel and that they were without repentance meaning forever.
    Romans 11:25-29 is your New Testament scripture that proves Israel's covenants are forever with them and not the church.
    Also the earmarks of Israel are in Revelation.
    You can ignore the scriptures I give and present your own scenario but you can't prove they are wrong or that they mean the church. Have to go. Jerry kelso
  12. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter


    Can't happen.

    It is not possible for any provisions in an old will (and testament) to reappear automatically in a new will. That would be a gross legal abrogation of the very definition of a Will and Testament. Upon the creation of a new will, all provisions of the old will are revoked, nullified, and voided. I've earlier shown the opening clause in every temporal will and testament that declares this in law. Thereafter, only those provisions which are explicitly specified in the new will are legally binding, and they come into instant force and effect upon the death of the testator. These principles are confirmed at various places in NT scripture, particularly Hebrews 8.

    If you believe that a previous will and testament still has validity after a new one has been created, then you had better ensure that you never update your own existing will, as a previous will could be used to modify it. But that would never be recognized in any legitimate court of law in the world.

    Your OT scriptures which are not repeated in the NT are therefore revoked, and are null and void. The carnal provisions are no longer seen; what is now seen are spiritual provisions.

    There is not even a hint of carnal provisions in Romans 11:25-29 or anywhere else in the NT. They are exclusively spiritual.
  13. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. An Old will is nullified when there is a new will drawn up and I have always said that.
    There can be same things , similar things, things with a different context or completely different things in the New.
    The truth is that the land and the kingdom promises are not a part of the Old Covenant that was abolished or the New Covenant that has forever replaced the Old Covenant.
    I have used the scripture Hebrews 9:16-17 about the death of the testator to prove about the same thing. So yes I do understand wills.

    2. The New Testament does record about the kingdom belonging to Israel in Romans 11:25-29.

    3. You say there is no carnal provisions in Roman's 11:25-29 and yet you try to make it for spiritual Israel of Jews and Gentiles both. That is a contradiction.
    If all there is is spiritual provisions then the scriptures in 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 and Christ having to rule and reign so all sin and rebellion can be put down and till all his enemies are under his feet and death is no more are not physical and mean nothing and won't happen! That is ludicrous to to believe to say the least.
    The church has spiritual provisions for we are blessed and set in Heavenly places Ephesians 1:7
    It also has physical promises such as Heaven where the Father dwells John 14:1-3. They will also have places of authority in the Earthly KoH reign too.
    The nation of Israel is strictly the earthly calling.

    4. You think there has to be a plain statement in the New Testament for proving the Old Covenant promises with Israel are still true.
    News flash!!!!!!!!! There doesn't have to be.
    Romans 11:25-29 is plain but the context is still Israel and reconciles with the Old Testament Scriptures.
    There is no plain scripture in the Old and New Testaments that say the church takes Israel's place so according to that train of thought I have more evidence than you do to prove Israel has the gifts and callings of the KoH earthly reign as a nation and head of the nations etc.
    You need to surrender to the truth instead of your man's doctrine and learn proper hermeneutics. God help you! Jerry kelso
  14. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    The Olive Tree of Romans 11 is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelite and Gentile branches grafted together into one tree.
    Paul provides no path to salvation in the chapter outside of the Olive Tree.

    Romans 11:25-27 is about the Gk. "houto", manner of salvation by being grafted into the Olive Tree through faith in Christ, instead of the timing of salvation as you are implying.

    There is no Plan B outside of the New Covenant Church in the passage.
    It is an invention of modern Dispensational Theology first brought to America by John Darby, about the time of the Civil War.

  15. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. Romans 11:1; I say then, Hath God cast off his people? God forbid , for I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
    11:2; God hath not cast away his people he foreknew.
    These verses are talking about the nation of Israel not the church of the Jews and Gentiles.

    2. Verses 3-4 talks about the 7000 reserved that wouldn't bow to Baal in Elias day.
    Verse 5-6; a Jewish remnant of grace not of works.
    Verse 7; some of Israel were blind and some believed to be the remnant by election.
    Verse 8 is about the unbelievers in Israel that were given slumber and sleep even to Paul's day.
    Verse 9-10 has a scripture from David of judgement for the unbelieving Jews
    Verses 11; I say then have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid. This is talking about the nation of Israel, not the church.
    So the Gentiles come into the picture because of the nation of Israel's fall.
    Paul is trying to save some of Israel Verse 14.
    Illustration of the wild olive tree the Gentiles, grafted in among Israel and partook of the root and fatness of the olive tree.
    Don't get highminded towards the branches. Then the severity of God is explained. The same thing that happened to Israel can happen to the Gentiles.
    The Gentiles are only a part of the church.

    3. Just like the Gentiles were grafted in, even more, can the nation of Israel be grafted into their own olive tree?
    Paul goes on to explain how and why Israel can be grafted back into their own olive tree.
    Verse 25; For I would not, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits, that blinded in part is happened to Israel.
    The mystery is not blindness in Paul's day but blindness all the way until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
    Some believe the fullness of the Gentiles is when the last Gentile is saved.
    If this is is true it would stand to reason since the last company of people who happened to be martyred seen saved would be the Jews who sing the Song of Moses and the Lamb Revelation 15:1-2.
    However, I have always believed that the fullness of the Gentiles coming in was the Nation's of the world which the Parallel New Testament in Greek and English agree with.
    This makes more sense for the next verse says: And so all Israel shall be saved, not the church.
    Because the church is not backslidden and thus doesn't have to be saved.
    Also, out of Sion the deliverer will come. That is none other than Christ that comes from Heaven not the earth.
    Jude 1-14-15 show saints coming out of Heaven as well as Revelation 19:11-15, both on the Day of the Lord.
    Christ will turn away ungodliness from Jacob which is where the Twelve tribes of Israel come from, not the church.
    Verse 27 Gods covenant with them is when he takes away their ungodliness, not the church. This is talking about the Davidic Covenant for it is conditioned by obedience but it is unconditionally eternal which means that Israel has to and will repent.
    This is why the gifts and callings for Israel in Verse 29 are without repentance or irrevocable not the church triumphant who are in Heaven during the time of Jacob's trouble Revelation 4:1; 5:9-10; 11-18; 19:7-10.
    Even the last tribulation martyrs in Revelation 15:1-2 who are in Heaven before the Wrath of God begins Revelation 16:1 which is judgement on the beast kingdom worshippers.

    4. Going back to verse 28; concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sakes.
    The church is not an enemy to the Gospel, but Israel is because they were backslidden in Paul's day and they still are today and will be in the time of Jacob's trouble and on the Day of the Lord.
    As touching the election they are beloved for the father's sake.
    The election are the believing Jewish remnant and is why the rest of the nation of Israel will Repent and be saved and become a nation born in one day Isaiah 66:7-9 and two sticks that unite as one stick Ezekiel 37:16-28.
    For the gifts and calling are without repentance for Israel not the church in this specific context.

    5. Paul preached the rapture of the church and he also knew the gifts and callings of Israel his fellow brethren were unconditionally eternal once the Repent as a nation so they could be united with the remnant.

    6. Revelation 12:14 shows the ones who will Repent who is the Sun Clothed woman preserved in the wilderness who is the nation of wilderness.
    They are on earth as well as the Jewish remnant Revelation 12:14,17, Revelation 11:13.

    7. Now you are wrong as usual but you should know that even if the church were to go through the tribulation and Israel had to be saved by means of the church propogating the gospel Israel would still receive the kingdom at the head of the nations of the world.

    8. So there is a timing of salvation for Israel which is Romans 11:25.
    Your Greek Houto doesn't line up with the context.
    It also does not line up with Hebrews 8:7-13.
    The house of Israel and the house of Judahhave to be brought into the New Covenant and the Lord will put his laws into their hearts and minds and be to them a God and they will be his people.
    It didn't say salvation would come from the olive tree of Jew and Gentiles.
    As far as Plan b that is your own accusatory invention. Jerry kelso
  16. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter


    This is a classic spiritual “believing baby - unbelieving bathwater” scenario. The previous chapter has concluded with:

    Romans 10
    21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

    Paul is describing the "unbelieving bathwater" ethnic majority of the nation of Israel, having already recognized in Romans 9:27 that only a "believing baby" remnant will be saved, and that the remainder will be lost. This is the reason for his anguish at the beginning of Romans 9. In Romans 11:1, he is asking rhetorically if God is going to dispose of the believing baby with the unbelieving bathwater. “His people”, additionally qualified as “His people whom He foreknew”, specifically identifies those of whom Paul is speaking as being the believing baby. Paul then declares that ethnically he is the unbelieving bathwater, but spiritually he is the believing baby. As the latter, he will not be lost and disposed of along with the former.

    So Paul's question in effect is:
    “Has God cast away the believing remnant of ethnic Israelites, His people whom He foreknew; because the majority of ethnic Israelites are unbelievers who are cast away”?

    His answer is:
    “No; I'm an ethnic Israelite, of whom the majority are unbelievers; but I myself am a believer, which makes me one of His people whom He foreknew, and I'm thus one of those who is not cast away”.

    God has only one people of Israel who are “His people whom He foreknew”, and they are His "believing baby" remnant who are not cast away, and no one else.
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2017
  17. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. You are wrong.
    Paul was talking about the whole nation when he said he had not cast away his people.
    The reason always has gone on because they had a remnant.

    2. 2 Samuel 7:13-16; David's house and throne would be established forever.
    If Israel committed sin they would chasten Israel with the rod of men and with the stripes of the children of men.
    This has happened in Israel's history; Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome. This is a fact!!!
    The Revised Roman Empire and the Antichrist are to come to which Daniel 2 & 7 and Revelation 12 & 13 and 17 which is the 7th Kingdom and the 8th.
    Going back to 2 Samuel 7:15; But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul whol I put away before them.
    Verse 16: And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established forever before thee: thy throne shall be established forever.
    1 Chronicles 28:1-8; the same message.
    Verse 9 God said said he would cast off Solomon forever if he forsook God.
    Though Solomon had done great things he also failed towards the end. An accommodation was made and God would take the kingdom away from Solomon's son Rehoboam. This accommodation was to David not Solomon.
    This point is made all through Chronicles. God was going to keep the Davidic Covenant forever.

    3. God talked about desolating the nation but always would eventually heal them. Read the book of Hosea and the unfaithful wife.
    Hosea 6 talks about God having torn Israel but how God will heal them. After 2 days he will revive and raise them up on the third day and live in his sight.
    This and the early and latter rain upon the earth is prophetic to Israel, not the church.
    Ezekiel 37:24 is prophetic to David being King over Israel when Israel and Judah are joined together as one stick foreve, not the church.
    The true church has never, is not now and never will be divided and do not have to Repent so they can be healed. This is why replacement theology is an abomination of hermeneutics and rightly dividing the word.

    4. Revelation 12: 14 shows Israel being preservered in the wilderness for the time of Jacob's trouble. Verse 17 the believing remnant are scattered.
    I have already explained Hebrews 8 that the New Covenant will be made with Israel and Judah and God will forgive them of their sin and not through the church's testimony but because they will see him come and mourn which means to Repent when they see the one whom they had pierced Revelation 1:7.

    5. Christ will come back to the Mt. of Olives Zechariah 14:4, with his saints who are the church saints as well as Old Testament saints and the tribulation saints that were resurrected and were in Heaven who are all at the Marriage of the Lamb Revelation 19:7-10.

    6. The fact is you have to admit Israel of ethnic Jews will be one nation with Judah with David as King according to Ezekiel 37:16-28.
    God promised it to his house and the throne forever.
    Christ promised the church mansions in his Father's house which is in Heaven.
    It will also be that the church will have positions of authority on earth throughout the earth.
    Gentiles can live in Jerusalem and will Zechariah 14:11 but the promise was made to the ethnic Jew who Christ was born as.
    So why do you fight so hard against the real truth. You have to run through hoops and make up doctrines etc.
    I almost believe you and Berean both believe because the church includes Jews and Gentiles are the church today the Kingdom has to be the same, otherwise God is being a respect of persons.
    Now you may not be anti-Semitic but the Catholic Church believes this and they are more apt to be accused of anti-Semitism because they believe the are the only church etc.
    Why should you care if the ethnic Jewish nation is at the head of the nations when God promised it to them according to their earthly calling?
    Romans 3:1-2 is why Israel will always be relevant to the land and throne in the KoH reign promises. Jerry kelso
  18. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    Because Jesus Christ is the ultimate fulfillment of Israel, as revealed in the first verse of the New Testament in Matthew 1:1.
    This is confirmed by Paul in Galatians 3:16.

    He is the only one worthy to be head of the nations.

  19. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. Your logic is most ridiculous.
    Christ being the head of the nations and the earth and the ultimate ruler doesn't prevent Christ from choosing Israel to rule with him at the head of the nations as he promised.
    Christ is training the church right now for rulership on earth 2 Timothy 2:12.
    From your logic Christ is going to rule and reign and we are going to do nothing.

    2. I have shown you from the whole context that Galatians 3:16 is talking about salvation and Christ did that alone.
    It is not about rulership in the kingdom alone.
    We will be Kings, Priests and rulers, in the kingdom to come.
    Christ will rule over all but that doesn't mean we won't have rulership positions or that we won't be Kings, Priests or rulers.
    If you can't understand that you need to quit posting. Jerry kelso
  20. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    Make up your mind.

    In one sentence you say Israel will rule and in the next sentence you say it is the Church...