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Featured MORE RAPTURE QUESTIONS

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by WailingWall, Jun 24, 2017.

  1. Riberra

    Riberra Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 24:29-31 is where you will find the last trumpet of this present Earth age who started at the fall of Adam and Eve.

    Matthew 24:29-31
    29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days ....
    30 .....
    31 And he shall send forth his angels WITH A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    But, you are right to say that is not the 7TH Trumpet of Revelation 11:15 as some wrongly believe.

    The 7TH Trumpet announce the THIRD W ....

    Revelation 11:14-15
    14 The second Woe is past: behold, the THIRD WOE COMETH QUICKLY.

    15 And the seventh angel sounded;
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2017
  2. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    baberean2,

    1. Roman's 11:24; For if thou were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more shall these which be the natural branches be grafted in into their own olive tree?
    The Gentiles were grafted into Israel's olive tree but Israel will be grafted in their own olive tree.
    This shows that the nation of Israel is distinct from the present day church of Jews and Gentiles.

    2. The time of Jacob's trouble is never referred to the present day church of the body of Christ.
    The Jewish nation is never referred to as the body of Christ.

    3. Jesus said in John 14:6 he would go and prepare us a house with many mansions in Heaven not on earth.
    All the Jewish nation knew is Messiah saving them from their sin Romans 11:27 and fulfilling their gifts and callings verse 29; Romans 11:25-29. through their eternal covenants of Abraham Genesis 12-15 and David 2 Samuel 7:13-16; 1Chronicles 28:4-7and Messiah ruling the KoH on Earth Isaiah 2:2-4;9:6-7; Ezekiel 37:27and conquering their enemies Romans 11:26.

    4. There is nowhere in the scripture that says or implies that the present church age saints has to go through the tribulation called Jacob's trouble for that alone is referred to Israel.
    They will be grafted back in their own tree showing the distinction between the nation of Israel and the church age saints of Jews and Gentiles.
    The gates of hell shall never prevail against the church of today.
    In the tribulation the Antichrist will make war with the saints and shall overcome the saints Revelation 13:7.
    The Jews knew about resurrection of the dead John 5:27-29; 11:23-24; Hebrews 6:2, but not the living being changed in the twinkling of an eye 1 Corinthians 15:51-52. Why? Because it was a mystery to the Old Testament saints.
    All you have is conjecture and opinion and one sided truths that leave the rest of the context out.
    Just as as Israel was a distinct and peculiar nation so is the church a peculiar body of Christ and they are distinct from each other with different and distinct callings. Jerry kelso
     
  3. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The Olive Tree is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelite branches and Gentile branches grafted together into the same Olive Tree.
    It started out as a tree made up almost entirely of Israelites.


    The Church began on the Day of Pentecost with about 3,000 Israelites and the Gentiles were grafted in later.
    This is proven by how Peter addressed the crowd on the Day of Pentecost.


    Act 2:14  But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.

     
    Act 2:22  "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—

     
    Act 2:36  "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." 


    Based on Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 12:22-24, Israel and the New Covenant Church cannot be separated.

    .
     
  4. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    baberean2,

    1. That is just your opinion and perception of what you believe it means.

    2. The Church began on the Day of Pentecost.
    The reason they were mostly Jews is because they had had the covenants and the only Gentiles were basically proselyted into Judaism.
    There was nothing known as Christianity.
    Also, Jesus said he would build the Church on Peter who was a lively stone because the Church was built on Jesus Christ first, then the the apostles and the rest who build on it.
    The early church didn't understand the full mystery of the church with Jews and Gentiles till 7-10 years later with Peter and the vision of clean and unclean.

    3. Peter spoke of what knowledge he had which was Judaism, the rejection and crucifixion of Christ and the belief of the death, burial, and resurrection. Read the gospels.

    4. Peter still understood the prophecies of Israel the nation was still going to happen but didn't know when Acts 1:6-7.
    He saw the signs of the KoH Acts 2 but when the Gentiles came into the picture what could he do or say to God Acts 10.
    Still Peter still had the Kingdom mindset for Israel in his writings and that is why his ministry was stronger to the Jews where Paul got tired of the Jews rejection of his ministry that included the Gentiles on the same plane as a part of the church and this is when Roman's 11:11 comes into full fruition because Paul had the ministry stronger to the Gentiles.
    Both Peter and Paul knew the covenants concerning the physical Jewish nation were eternal and would be fulfilled in the future Acts 1:6-7; Romans 11:1-2.
    God's people he foreknew was the nation of Israel not the church of Jews and Gentiles.
    Just like the law of Moses couldn't prevent the NC from coming in the grafting in of the Gentiles could not prevent the physical nation of Israel which is a separate entity than the body of Christ from receiving the Kingdom. That is the main point of the chapter.
    Verse 24 proves that Israel will be grafted back into their own tree to fulfill their gifts and callings Romans 11:29.
    This means the church will be raptured so they can fulfill their Heavenly calling which is to receive judgement for works 1 Corinthians 3:12-15; Revelation 11:18 and to be at the Marriage of the Lamb Revelation 19:7-10.
    Revelation 4:10 are casting crowns before the throne and they represent the Old and New Testament saints and 5:10 says we shall reign on the earth and God has made us Kings and Priests. This shows the church is in Heaven because they have already been trained for rulership on earth and has been raptured
    and will come back with Christ out of Heaven to go to Armageddon on the Day of the Lord.
    It is Israel that has to through the time of Jacob's trouble which is synonymous with the physical nation of Israel not the Present Church today.

    5. Israel will be grafted back in their tree not the church of today who will be raptured for the church is the one who stands in the way of the Antichrist being revealed 2 Thessalonians 2:7-8.
    The Gentiles being grafted in is to provoke Israel to Jealousy.
    The rapture of the church and the time of Jacob's trouble and their nation almost being annihilated will be wake up calls to come back to God.
    God will use the 144,000 physical Jews and the 2 Witnesses which most likely be Enoch and Elijah because they have endtime ministries for Israel and have to come back and die because of the laws of degradation.

    6. God has always used heathen nations to oppress Israel and come back to God in the Old Testament and will in the future time of Jacob's trouble by the 10 horns and the Antichrist kingdom.
    The Jewish remnant is in the wilderness on earth on the Day of the Lord not the Church Revelation 12 for the Church is in Heaven and coming out of Heaven with Christ Revelation 19:7-15-21 to save the Jewish nation Isaiah 2:2-4;9:6-7 66:7-9 etc. and Christ to take the Kingdoms of the world. Revelation 11:15.

    7. You misunderstand the context of Roman's 11 and go to seed on it and become one sided again and as a result miss the real truth. Jerry kelso
     
  5. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Peter Confesses Jesus as the Christ

    Mat 16:13  When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?" 
    Mat 16:14  So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." 
    Mat 16:15  He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 
    Mat 16:16  Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 
    Mat 16:17  Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 
    Mat 16:18  And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 


    The rock is Jesus, who is the Christ, the Son of the living God, found in Matthew 16:16.

    He is the rock that is the "chief cornerstone" found in Matthew chapter 21 and 1 Peter 2:4-10.

    Christ never said He would build the Church on Peter.

    .
     
  6. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    baberean2,

    1. I said what the scripture says.
    I also said Jesus first which means he is the chief cornerstone and Peter meaning rock who said he was a lively stone 1Peter 2:5-9 and Paul said the apostles and then those who built on afterwards 1 Corinthians 3:1O-15.
    The foundation is Jesus Christ that no other foundation can build for the work of the cross is Christ alone and not man.
    Paul said he was a wise builder and it is on the foundation of the prophets and apostles because they were the authorities given by God to propagate the Gospel and they would pass it on to faithful believers who would continue building on the foundations and how believers build on the foundation is what they will be judged for verse 12-15.

    2. Quit trying to make out like I'm saying something I'm not! You would be better served if you tried harder to study and find the right truth instead of trying to poke holes in the truth and making false accusations of what I said.

    3. I gave the whole context and it didn't mean that Peter was the chief cornerstone. Get real and quit being ridiculous. Jerry kelso
     
  7. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    "Also, Jesus said he would build the Church on Peter who was a lively stone because the Church was built on Jesus Christ first, then the the apostles and the rest who build on it."

    .
     
  8. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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  9. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    baberean2,

    Yes! Catholics believe in Peter as the Rock of the church to the extreme resulting in Apostolic Succession to the extreme which is not scriptural.
    Most everyone has a little truth but it is when they go to seed on one thing or are blinded or mix things in when they shouldn't, or use wrong historical context or don't understand how prophetic passages can be in a historical passage, and wrong Hermeneutics and Exegesis that the real truth in proper perspective can be and is most times lost.
    Let me say one more thing; the KoG in its spiritual was never built by man because the work of the Cross was all Christ and this is is why salvation can only be approved by God's grace.
    The Physical KoH reign can only be a work of God because it is his almighty power that can destroy the enemy of our souls and take the Kingdoms of this world, recreate a New World and the main reason is to show that he is the Great Potentate of the world and the universe and he alone.
    The Great Confrontation between God and Satan will come to full fruition and Christ will be victor as King of Kings and Lord of Lords Revelation 19:11-21 etc. Satan will be thrown into the lake of fire forever prepared for the Devil and his angels and all his sinful children Revelation 20:10-15 Jerry kelso
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017
  10. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Jerry,

    Look at Matthew 19:23-24.

    Kingdom of Heaven=Kingdom of God

    Mat_3:2  And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

    Mat_4:17  From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

    Mat_5:3  Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    Mat_5:10  Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    Mat_5:19  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    Mat_5:20  For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    Mat_7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    Mat_8:11  And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

    Mat_10:7  And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

    Mat_11:11  Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

    Mat_11:12  And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

    Mat_13:11  He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

    Mat_13:24  Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

    Mat_13:31  Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:

    Mat_13:33  Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

    Mat_13:44  Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

    Mat_13:45  Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:

    Mat_13:47  Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

    Mat_13:52  Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

    Mat_16:19  And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

    Mat_18:1  At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?

    Mat_18:3  And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    Mat_18:4  Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

    Mat_18:23  Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

    Mat_19:12  For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.


    Mat_19:14  But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

    Mat_19:23  Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    Mat_20:1  For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.

    Mat_22:2  The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

    Mat_23:13  But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

    Mat_25:1  Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

    Mat_25:14  For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

    ......................................................................

    Mat_6:33  But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

    Mat_12:28  But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

    Mat_19:24  And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

    Mat_21:31  Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

    Mat_21:43  Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

    Mar_1:14  Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

    Mar_1:15  And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

    Mar_4:11  And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

    Mar_4:26  And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;

    Mar_4:30  And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it?

    Mar_9:1  And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

    Mar_9:47  And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

    Mar_10:14  But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

    Mar_10:15  Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

    Mar_10:23  And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

    Mar_10:24  And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

    Mar_10:25  It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

    Mar_12:34  And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.


    Mar_14:25  Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.

    Mar_15:43  Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus.

    Luk_4:43  And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent.

    Luk_6:20  And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.


    Luk_7:28  For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.
    Luk_8:1  And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him,

    Luk_8:10  And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

    Luk_9:2  And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.

    Luk_9:11  And the people, when they knew it, followed him: and he received them, and spake unto them of the kingdom of God, and healed them that had need of healing.


    Luk_9:27  But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

    Luk_9:60  Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

    Luk_9:62  And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

    Luk_10:9  And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

    Luk_10:11  Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

    Luk_11:20  But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

    Luk_12:31  But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.

    Luk_13:18  Then said he, Unto what is the kingdom of God like? and whereunto shall I resemble it?

    Luk_13:20  And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God?

    Luk_13:28  There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

    Luk_13:29  And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.

    Luk_14:15  And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God.

    Luk_16:16  The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

    Luk_17:20  And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

    Luk_17:21  Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

    Luk_18:16  But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

    Luk_18:17  Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

    Luk_18:24  And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

    Luk_18:25  For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

    Luk_18:29  And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake,

    Luk_19:11  And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

    Luk_21:31  So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

    Luk_22:16  For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

    Luk_22:18  For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

    Luk_23:51  (The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them;) he was of Arimathaea, a city of the Jews: who also himself waited for the kingdom of God.

    Joh_3:3  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    Joh_3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    Act_1:3  To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

    Act_8:12  But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

    Act_14:22  Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

    Act_19:8  And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.

    Act_20:25  And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

    Act_28:23  And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

    Act_28:31  Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

    Rom_14:17  For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

    1Co_4:20  For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.

    1Co_6:9  Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

    1Co_6:10  Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

    1Co_15:50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

    Gal_5:21  Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    Col_4:11  And Jesus, which is called Justus, who are of the circumcision. These only are my fellowworkers unto the kingdom of God, which have been a comfort unto me.

    2Th_1:5  Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:


    You have seen this on several different occasions, but still attempt to ignore the fact that the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are one and the same.
    This is proven by the words of Christ in Matthew 19:23-24.


    All false systems of interpretation are not revealed by the scripture quoted by its proponents, but by the scripture they must ignore to make it work.

    .
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017
  11. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    baberean2,

    1. Matthew 6:33; Seek ye first the KoG and his righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you.
    This is talking about the salvation aspect of the KoG and the righteousness was of the Mosaic law and all these things shall be added unto you were the blessings of keeping the law of Moses.
    Israel was never told to seek the KoH for salvation.
    Luke 17:20-21; The KoG comes without observation and the KoG would be within them. This is about salvation and the suffering Savior that they missed and wouldn't recognize the way he came etc. Isaiah 53

    2. You misunderstand the wording of Matthew 19:23 & 24.
    Verse 23; Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, that a rich man shall hardly enter into the KoH.
    Shall hardly enter into the KoH (physical) means that a rich man will enter the KoH but hardly or barely.
    Verse 24; And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the KoG.
    This means that it is easier for a rich man to remain unsaved than saved because of his love of money is greater than his desire to serve God.
    These are two different meanings not the same.

    3. The only false interpretation is yours because you don't understand the correct wording of the verses and ignore the context. Jerry kelso
     
  12. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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  13. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    baberean2,

    1. Nothing to say? Of course not.
    He no more proved that the KoH and the KoG were the same than a man in the moon.
    He does want to diss Dispensationalism.

    2. Man doesn't alter God's plan of redemption for it was ordained and predestined before the foundations of the world.

    3. Old prophets didn't understand the church because it was a mystery. They were limited in their understanding of the full scope of prophecies such as Daniel because the Lord told him to shut the book and he will stand in his lot in that day.

    4. There was no plan b for God's word prophesied that Israel would reject him and the church was foreordained before the world.

    5. All the scriptures given about the KoH and the KoG were about the physical kingdom on earth.
    This is because the KoH is a small earthly sphere of the universal KoG. In this sense they have almost everything in common.
    In the big picture, earth only earth and not the whole universe of which the KoG is.

    6. It is the spiritual aspect of the KoG that deals with salvation of the heart not the KoH spiritual aspect which is contained in the physical KoH.
    Matthew 6:33 and Luke 17:20-21 shows that the spiritual aspect of the KoG deals with becoming saved.
    The Jews were never told to seek the KoH for receiving salvation and were never told that the KoH comes without observation etc.

    7. The cross of Christ was no alternate plan Genesis 3:15 which God makes that prophecy.

    8. God has designed each Dispensation, stewardship, or whatever you want to call them that involves the covenants and promises God made to believers like Noah, the patriarchs, the nation of Israel, the church etc,

    9. God gives men freewill and deals with them accordingly to the laws of dealing with freewill because of true love that people will serve him out of true love not because he merely gives a commandment to obey.
    You are trying to accuse Dispensationalist of being architect of history which is preposterous to scripture.
    Rejection of Christ by the Jews happened and has been postponed because of the Church who was ordained came into the picture so we can provoke them to jealousy to come back to Christ so they will repent and come back to God and fulfill their gifts and callings for the age of the KoH reign on earth which is separate from the churches obligations and authoritative rulership positions.

    10. I have given these truths from the word for a long time and you know they are true.
    The argument is more or less a diatribe against dispensationalists, Arminianists and much misunderstanding of what they say and mean.
    You still could not rebut Matthew 19:23-24 and you never will. Jerry kelso
     
  14. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Matthew 19
    23 And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
    24 Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

    Christ avers "Again I say to you" signifying that He is simply reiterating and restating the truth of 19:23 in 19:24, with additional emphasis (i.e. He states in 19:23 that it is hard, then uses the figure of 19:24 to emphasize how hard). The Expositor's Greek Testament describes it as "reiteration with greater emphasis."

    Christ also reaffirms the interchangeability of "kingdom of heaven" and "kingdom of God."

    There are no "two different meanings."
     
  15. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    jgr,

    1. Matthew 19:23; a rich man shall hardly enter into the KoH. KJV.
    Let me say this that the KoH is the physical kingdom on earth and there is no doubt in scripture about this.
    Matthew 4:17 Repent for the KoH is at hand. The physical KoH is just the earthly sphere of the universal KoG.
    The physical KoG is without beginning or ending and the earth had a beginning.
    These are just a couple of distinctions between the KoH and the KoG.
    The similarities are because the earthly kingdom is a part of the universal KoG. In this sense they have almost everything in common.

    3. There are spiritual things in the KoH just like the present church and bad seeds like the children of the devil.
    But being saved is through the spiritual KoG not the spiritual aspect of the KoH.
    The Jews were never told to seek the KoH for salvation but seeking the KoG Matthew 6:33.
    The KoG came without observation according to salvation not the KoH Luke 17:20-21.

    4. The point of Matthew 19:23-24 is that it will be hard for a rich man to enter the physical KoH reign on earth as a saved person by way of the spiritual aspect of the KoG.

    5. Luke said he came to seek and save that which was lost.
    The two kingdoms lost were from the garden of Eden. The Physical KoH which was the reign in the Garden for Adam and Eve was given rule over all creation Genesis 1:26, lost Genesis 3:22-24.
    They lost the spiritual rule of their heart when they sinned Genesis 3:14-19. They were created sinless Genesis 1:26-31; Genesis 2:25.
    The KoG represents salvation which was taken care of at Calvary.
    The KoH will be restored again in the millennial kingdom concerning man's rule with Messiah personally.
    When the Son gives the Father the KoH back it will be God all in all 1 Corinthians 15:28. The whole universe will be in complete harmony as the one true KoG.

    6. There are distinctions but you obviously don't want to believe the scripture.
    You keep Israel from receiving its covenant promises that are eternal and its position in the KoH at the head of the nations.

    7. The KoH and the KoG message was not a message to the church of the New Covenant.
    Israel was to be the salt of the earth but lost its savor and was trodden under the foot of men Matthew 5:13.
    The gates of hell shall never prevail against the church of the NC Matthew 16:18.
    The KoH and the KoG message at this time was under the law of Moses and if one understands and believes this interpretation will find themselves under the spirit of the Old law of Moses and be more defeated than victorious in life and not realize how much better promises we have in the NC.
    The big picture in the redemptive plan is the restoration of redemption and creation and the Nation of Israel has its place and so does the present day church but they are not the exact same calling. The church is being trained now 2 Timothy 2:12 and Israel has to be purged by tribulation Daniel 9:24-27; Ezekiel 37:16-28. Jerry kelso
     
  16. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    jerry,
    We're focusing exclusively on Matt. 19:23-24. In these verses, Christ draws no distinction between the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God. He uses them interchangeably. When He states "Again I say to you" in verse 24, He obviously intends that the meaning in verse 23 is repeated in verse 24, the only difference being the additional emphasis.

    Can you cite any Bible commentator prior to the 19th century who asserts that there is a difference between the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God in these two verses?
     
  17. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    jgr,

    1. Jesus; Matthew 6:33 and Luke 17:20.
    Daniel 7:24-27; Christ is coming back to establish a real "Visible" kingdom on the earth which is the Kingdom under the whole Heaven which is the KoH reign on earth.
    The KoG is invisible Luke 17:20.

    2. You want to make it interchangeable so there is no distinction at all.

    3. The KoH message was only preached to Israel.
    John the Baptist Matthew 3:2 started preaching the KoH an Jesus afterwards Matthew 4:17.
    Matthew 10:7 The KoH is at hand and verse 6: Go not in the way of the Gentiles and into the city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel and as you go preach, the KoH is at hand.
    Matthew includes this term because it is Jehovah's gospel to offer the visible kingdom on earth.
    This was to fulfill the Eternal Davidic Covenant in Jesus day who was Messiah who would free Israel from their enemies Luke 1:31; named Jesus; 32; Son of the Highest and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his Father David 33; And he shall reign over the House of Jacob foreverand of his kingdom forever there shall be no end.
    The condition to enter the visible KoH reign on earth was to repent which is the spiritual aspect of the KoG.
    Romans 13:17 states; For the KoG is not meat and drink; but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Ghost.
    The operation of God to give man a holy heart is the KoG. The operation of God to give man the Earth to rule and reign is the KoH.

    4. The KoH message was not preached to the church.
    Acts 1:6-7 the timing of the restoration of the KoH was not for the disciples to know only God knew and it was not a message to the church as Israel.
    We know the KoH reign will be restored and we will be part of it as Kings, Priests, and Rulers in the Kingdom to come.
    But, we are being trained now in rulership training for the KoH reign 2 Timothy 2:12.
    Israel has to be purged from their sins Daniel 9:24-27 through Jacob's trouble to attain to their rulership position.

    5. Going back to Matthew 19:23-24; The young man kept the laws but didn't want to surrender his soul and that is why he couldn't enter the physical KoH as a saved person. There will be rich men that are not saved in the millennial kingdom as long as they abide by the civil law which will go forth out of Zion Isaiah 2:2-4 by Christ who will rule with a Rod of Iron Psalm 2:9; Revelation 12:6.
    Because of the young boy's love of money it was easier for a camel to go through the eye of the needle than for a rich man to enter the KoG.
    The KoG had to with salvation Matthew 6:33 and Luke 17:20.
    The very next verse proves this point. Verse 25; When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED?

    6. Even if you use both terms as the physical kingdom which was not necessarily it would still be fine because the physical aspect of the KoH is a part of the physical aspect of the universal KoG.

    7. All Jews in Jesus day understood the distinctions, so did Dr. Hubert Lindsey, the Father of the Jesus movement who wrote the Kingdom Series volume 1&2. He was tutored in the Torah and Jewish culture by one of his converts Rabbi Ziegler after his theological studies. Reverend Finis J. Dake understood the distinctions as well as David Stern who has the Jewish Bible and he is a Jew. Jerry kelso
     
  18. BABerean2

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    Mat 8:10  When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 
    Mat 8:11  And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 
    Mat 8:12  But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    . 
     
  19. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    To repent and believe the gospel is to enter the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 4:17), and to enter the kingdom of God (Mark 1:15), and to be saved. Christ used both kingdom expressions interchangeably and without distinction in Matthew 19:23-24. Matthew, who in concert with other authoring disciples used kingdom interchangeability in v.23-24 and extensively elsewhere, fully understood that the disciples' question in v. 25 recognized that “be saved” included both kingdoms.


    Here are some of Christ's milder denunciations of the Jews and their doctrines:

    Matthew 15

    7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

    8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

    9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

    14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.


    Mark 7

    13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.



    Hubert Lindsey, Finis Dake, and David Stern were all born in the 20th century.
     
  20. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    jgr,

    All the Old Testament prophets and John the Baptist and Jesus were way before any you wanted me to list and they hold more weight.
    Dr Lindsey, Reverend Dake, and David Stern agree with the Jewish perspective of the prophets and John the Baptist and Jesus. Jerry kelso
     
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