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Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by WailingWall, Jun 24, 2017.

  1. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

    United States
    I find it amazing that you can wrest scripture so completely, without even seeming to notice you are doing it. When you imagine that the scriptures teach something, you say things like "the Word is plain," but when they actually teach other things, you claim they do not.

    In this case, Revelation 21:1-4 most absolutely does not teach that the New Jerusalem comes down TO us. It, along with the entire series from chapter 19 on, plainly teaches that it comes down WITH us, not TO us.
  2. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    Those who have already died are there now, in the Father's House.

    The famous passage from 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5 reveals when we will take our place there, with those who now "sleep".

    This occurs at the beginning of Christ's Second Coming.

  3. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

    United States
    Calvary Chapel
    I've demonstrated two, actually. You just keep making excuses for them.

    When the New Jerusalem arrives, the description is that of the arrival of a bride, not as the arrival to the bride. The bride is contained within. The bride actually begins to inhabit that place prior to the wrath of God comes to the earth, according to Isaiah 26:19-21, when it is still in heaven.
  4. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

    1. Plate Tetonics can be true but that is not the point.
    God is in control and just like parts of global warming can be true of getting hotter etc. is not the point.
    God is in control and will not allow annihilation in any of these.

    2. The Pre-trib has nothing to with the present day church going through the time of Jacob's trouble.
    You can't find the church age Gentile and Jewish saints of the body of Christ in the tribulation in any scripture.
    You can find gentile and Jewish saints who are believers and the bulk of the time of Jacob's trouble is about being purged by the Revised Roman Empire Revelation 17:10 and the Antichrist kingdom 10-11.
    The church is being trained for the kingdom now 2 Timothy 2:12.
    The church doesn't and will not be purged for their sins for the true church is pure and holy and the gates of hell shall never prevail against it Matthew 16:18.
    The church will be judged for their works in Heaven not on earth 1 Corinthians 3:12-15; Revelation 11:18.
    The church will be raptured before because they are the "He" who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way 1 Thessalonians 1:6-7.
    The church will be taken out of the way and not the Holy Spirit or men's governments.
    This will happen before the time of Jacob's trouble and Michael will stand aside and allow the time of Jacob's trouble to effect Israel in Daniel 12:1.

    3. The only hoax is your false doctrines of post rapture and spiritual Jew theory to the extreme and your false allegations against dispensationalists.
    Still waiting on your explanation on Jeremiah 30:7. You haven't and cannot answer to it and your credibility of knowing any truth dwindles down further.
    So you have no right to say much of anything because of posting such hypocrisy. Jerry kelso
  5. saint2

    saint2 Regular Member Supporter

    United States
    Not to worry, WailingWall, the Lord has taken care of that

    Isaiah 60:9
    For the coastlands shall wait for me, the ships of Tarshish first, to bring your children from far away, their silver and gold with them, for the name of the Lord your God, and for the Holy One of Israel, because he has glorified you.
  6. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

    New Zealand
    I asked that you provide a verse that proves God will take living people to heaven. You have not done so, the 2 you did provide do not prove a rapture removal to heaven at all.
    Your quote of Isaiah 26:20-21, is a warning to us all about the forthcoming Day of the Lord's wrath by fire from the sun.
  7. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. There is a pre-trib rapture.
    1 Corinthians 15:51-52 the rapture was a mystery to the Old Testament saints but the Day of the Lord was not Isaiah 11:10-16; 12:1; 13:6-9; Joel 2:1-2; and the rest of the minor prophets.

    2. The Day of the Lord is a day of vengeance to annihilate sinners to comfort all they that mourn which means to repent Isaiah 61:1-11 which is the nation of Israel and their seed shall be known among the Gentiles Isaiah 61:9.
    The Day of the Lord is not about the church being raptured.

    3. We know the dead in Christ will be those from the time of Noah's family and ones from the church era that die that God brings back with him from Heaven to meet those who are alive and remain. Enoch was the only one translated to Heaven as a type of the pre-trib rapture before judgement came Genesis 5:24 and the remnant was Noah and his family who was pure Adamite stock and found grace in the eyes of the Lord Genesis 6:8-9.
    Jude 1:14-15; Enoch prophesied that the Lord cometh with tens of thousands of his saints to execute Judgement.
    Revelation 4:10 the 24 elders represent the Old and New Testament Christians from Adam to they that are Christ's at his coming 1 Corinthians 15:23.
    John 4:1 is a type of the rapture of the church for the things hereafter are after the church age.
    We are being trained right now for rulership training 2 Timothy 2:12.
    The true church are overcomers and not backslidden Revelation 2&3 and the gates of hell shall never prevail against it Matthew 16:18.
    They are in Heaven before the 7 seals of the tribulation are opened Revelation 4:1; between the middle and towards the last half of the tribulation to be judged for their works Revelation 11:18.
    They are at the marriage of the Lamb before they come out of Heaven to go to the battle of Armageddon on the Day of the Lord Revelation 19:7-10.

    4. John was in Heaven and saw those robed in White who had come out of Great tribulation and didn't know who they were Revelation 7:13-17.
    John was a part of the church so the church couldn't have been on earth or in Great tribulation at that time otherwise John would have known who they were.
    These tribulation saints are also before the throne of God in Heaven which proves that the last company of tribulation saints in Revelation 15:1-2 which is before the 7 vials of the wrath of God Revelation 15:1-2; and the beast kingdom worshippers Revelation 16:1-2 finish up the first resurrection and they are martyred Revelation 15:1-2; 20:4-6. Only the dead are resurrected and no living people.

    5. The Jewish nation of Israel's gifts and callings are eternal and based on repentance which will happen in time of Jacob's trouble Romans 11:25-29.
    It is in conjunction with the restitution of all things which Peter was seeing signs on the Day of Pentecost Acts 3:19 but Jesus told him it was not for him to know the times and seasons for only God the father knew Acts 1:6-7.

    6. Israel also has to be purged Daniel 9:24-27 which goes with the time of Jacob's trouble Daniel 12:1 and the two sticks of Judah and Israel becoming one stick and David being their King Ezekiel 37:16-28.
    Their will be a Jewish remnant not a church age saints remnant Matthew 24:31; Revelation 12:17; remnant of her seed; Revelation 11:13; the remnant were affrighted and gave God the glory to the God of Heaven.
    Remnant is only referred to the Jewish remnant in scripture.
    Yes, there is a pre-trib rapture of the church age saints. Jerry kelso
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2017
  8. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    You better start building a time machine which can return you to the past, if you want to see "the time of Jacob's trouble."

    Jer 30:1  The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 
    Jer 30:2  "Thus speaks the LORD God of Israel, saying: 'Write in a book for yourself all the words that I have spoken to you. 
    Jer 30:3  For behold, the days are coming,' says the LORD, 'that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah,' says the LORD. 'And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.' " 
    Jer 30:4  Now these are the words that the Lord spoke concerning Israel and Judah. 
    Jer 30:5  "For thus says the LORD: 'We have heard a voice of trembling, Of fear, and not of peace. 
    Jer 30:6  Ask now, and see, Whether a man is ever in labor with child? So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins Like a woman in labor, And all faces turned pale? 
    Jer 30:7  Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob's trouble, But he shall be saved out of it. 
    Jer 30:8  'For it shall come to pass in that day,' Says the LORD of hosts, 'That I will break his yoke from your neck, And will burst your bonds; Foreigners shall no more enslave them. 
    Jer 30:9  But they shall serve the LORD their God, And David their king, Whom I will raise up for them. 
    Jer 30:10  'Therefore do not fear, O My servant Jacob,' says the LORD, 'Nor be dismayed, O Israel; For behold, I will save you from afar, And your seed from the land of their captivity. Jacob shall return, have rest and be quiet, And no one shall make him afraid. 
    (It says "the land", as in one nation, not many nations as in the diaspora.)

  9. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

    New Zealand
    Do humans ever go to heaven?
    The belief and teaching that all humans have natural immortality via an immortal soul can be traced back thousands of years. We can see from history that nations like Egypt and Babylon taught their people about an immortal soul in every human, that continued to live, to think and to experience life, after the body had died. Depending on the nation and on their spiritual theology they had, would come various teachings about where and under what conditions this immortal soul would experience after the death of the physical body. Some nations would bury the dead body in graves with all kinds of things for the departed to take with them and to use to enjoy in the afterlife.

    Different nations may have had different places where the departed soul would live when it left the dead body, but to put it in simple language, the immortal soul was in a "heaven" of some sort. They even had gloomy underworlds for those not thought to have done enough good in their physical lives to warrant the prize of "heaven."

    All this should start to sound somewhat familiar with certain teaching and beliefs of many "Christian" churches and organizations. Many have heard the "hell-fire and brimstone" sermons preached loud and vigorously by a Christian minister or Camp-meeting tent revivalist. Such preaching of course includes telling you that if you "give your heart to the Lord" and turn from sin, you can "go to heaven" and live in bliss, doing...well they are not sure, maybe singing and strumming on a harp?

    Just about all Christians today believe they shall "get to heaven" one day. They firmly believe that going to heaven is one of the basic rewards of being Christian. To think, and to teach otherwise, to them, is pretty close to being a nutty and strange heretic. They are convinced the Bible shows and tells us that going to heaven is the automatic reward of the children of God. And most believe that going to heaven takes place when the physical body stops breathing and dies. Yet this common and prevailing theological view was not the common view or teaching of the early New Testament Church of God.

    The early NT church did not teach or believe in going to heaven at death, for those faithful Christians. Church history shows that it was only through the teachings of people like Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and others that most professing Christians gradually came to adopt the belief of the immortal soul, and going immediately "somewhere" after the death of the body. Many were coming into the popular church of the Roman Empire, founded in Rome, who already held to Hellenistic philosophy, Egyptian mythology, and Babylonian Mystery religions, with an after death life of some sort as the foundation of it all. They did not want to give up this teaching and belief, just as they did not want to abandon many other false teachings and practices. So, to accommodate them the large popular church took many of these old pagan beliefs and re-clothed them with Christian garments. Hence, as the millenniums came and went today's doctrines of the immortal soul as taught together with an ever burning hell fire for the wicked, a purgatory for those who may not have sinned unto eternal torment, and can possibly yet be granted heaven and a heaven where God is, for the righteous. All this came to be church doctrines.

    Most Christians believe they will at some point "get to heaven" where God is dwelling. Some do not believe you go to heaven at death, but that death is a sleep until the resurrection, then when Jesus returns to raise the righteous dead, all go back with Him to heaven for a thousand years, until the new earth comes into being. Others believe that Christ returns to "rapture" His Church away from the terrible tribulation then taking place on the earth, and that they spent either 7 years or 3 1/2 years in heaven, before returning again with Christ to set up the Kingdom of God on earth for a thousand years.

    Whatever the various beliefs of certain religious sects and denominations is on this matter, just about all of them teach and believe that the good Christian will someday, for some period of time "go to heaven" where the Father lives and dwells in the heavenly Jerusalem.
    And if this is a fundamental plain teaching of the Bible, then surely we should be able to find many verses all over the Bible saying things such as: "When we get to heaven," "When we see each other in heaven," "They are up there in heaven with God," "We shall go to heaven at Christ's return," "We shall be in heaven where God is one day." BUT VERSES LIKE THIS CANNOT BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE!

    BUT, what we do read in the Bible is the Words of Jesus: No man goes to heaven, except the One who came from there. John 3:13 Where I go, you cannot come. John 7:34 Your home is in this world, Mine is not. John 8:23 I do not pray, Father, that You take them out of this world.... John 17:15

    So the truth is, the idea of a 'rapture to heaven', is a straight out Satanic lie; one of his most successful ones, that will cause many unprepared Christians to fall on the Day of trial. 1 Peter 4:12, 1 Corinthians 3:13-15
  10. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

    New Zealand
    Mostly, BaB, we agree on Bible prophecy, but not with this one.
    That Jeremiah 30:1-10 is still future, is proved by the fact that Israel and Judah have not yet rejoined as per Ezekiel 37 and in verses 6-7, that tell of a terrible Day of anguish, Daniel 12:1, the great Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath, prophesied over 100 times and has not yet happened.
    Also thinking that verse 10 refers to just one 'land', is wrong and contradicts prophesies like: Isaiah 49:10-11, Ezekiel 37:21-22, Ezekiel 34:11-12, Zechariah 10:8-10, Jeremiah 31:8-9, Revelation 5:9-10, +
  11. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. A time machine? Your post is in a time warp!

    2. All you did was disagreed about the time of Jacob's trouble being past instead of future.

    3. You gave scriptures to show a present day of Jeremiah.
    You even posted verse 9 which is prophetic and you didn't prove it to be past because you can't.
    Verse 7 and 8 is prophetic as well.

    4. Every major tribulation can be considered in the time of Jacob's trouble by the nations that oppressed them and the future kingdoms; the Revised Roman Empire which is the 7th and the Antichrist kingdom which is the 8th kingdom Revelation 17:11.
    Matthew 24:21 talks about the time of Jacob's trouble and the conus about the Jewish nation.
    Daniel 12:1 shows the same description; there shall be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time...
    Verse 7; Alas, for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved it.
    This was only temporary of the Babylonian captivity but will be permanent in the Great tribulation going into the millennial KoH reign. Likewise with verse 8.
    Verse 9 proves that is prophetic not just the present Babylonian captivity because Israel will serve God and David their king who God will raise up in the future. That didn't happen in Jeremiah's day.
    Quit trying to cloak the real truth and that is the deception in your posts.

    5. The Jewish nation is the seed that God will gather out of captivity Ezekiel 37 talks about the valley of dry bones coming alive and come up out of the graves and the Spirit put in them.
    It will result in Judah and Israel being 2 sticks that will be divided and then will be united as one where David will be their king.
    This will be a covenant of peace that is everlasting and God will tabernacle with Israel and the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when God's sanctuary shall be in the midst of them forevermore.
    As usual you haven't rebutted anything that the context really says, shows and means.
    You like to give one side and make it the gospel when it isn't and you love to cloak the truth. But who could expect any more when you live in a time warp. Jerry kelso
  12. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 

    The dry bones in Ezekiel 37 is about the resurrection of the dead described by Christ in John 5:27-30, and the covenant of peace in the passage is the New Covenant found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13. It is the same "everlasting covenant" found in Hebrews 13:20.

  13. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

    New Zealand
    No its not. Ezekiel 37 describes the spiritual regeneration of all Israelites; those whom God has called from every tribe, race, nation and language. That it has not happened yet is ascertained by a plain reading of what is prophesied: I shall put My Spirit into them...they will know Me, I shall be their God and they will be My people. Paralleled by Romans 9:24-26
    John 5:27-29 refers to the Great White Throne Judgement, at the end of the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15
  14. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. Revelation 12:11 is talking about tribulation martyrs and not the church age saints for they are in Heaven Revelation 4:1; 4:10; 5:8-10,14 before the 7 seals are opened.
    Revelation 11:18; rewards of the prophets and saints which is the same as the believers Judgement of Works in Heaven which will occur in between the middle of the tribulation towards the end.
    Revelation 19:7-10 the Old and New Testament saints pre-trib raptured are still in Heaven at the end at the Marriage of the Lamb.
    Then they come straight out of Heaven with Christ on the Day of the Lord to do battle at Armageddon Revelation 16:16 also called the great Supper of God Revelation 19:17.

    2. The Dry Bones of Ezekiel 37 is in the tribulation and that is Israel who will repent so they can receive their gifts and callings Romans 11:25-29 and become a nation born in one day Isaiah 66:8.

    3. John 5:27-30 was the Old Testament doctrine that was told to the church age saints not to lay down again Hebrews 6:1-2.
    The end of the First Resurrection are the Jewish martyrs that sing the song of Moses and the Lamb Revelation 15:1-2; 20:4-6. It is not Lazarus and those gone on before but only those who are living at that time and who are martyred because they didn't take the mark of the beast.
    All saints Jew and Gentile Christians of the Old Covenant and New Covenant of the church are those that will be raptured both dead and living as in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

    4. Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:13 concerns Israel as a nation when they will receive the New Covenant as a whole nation.

    5. The everlasting covenant of peace of Ezekiel has to with Israel's place in the KoH reign and God tabernacling with them and the heathen recognizing their place in the KoH.

    6. The everlasting blood covenant is the condition on which they can receive the KoH and their gifts and callings for rulership.
    One sided, tunnel vision, going to seed so hard nosed you can't see the forest from the trees.

    7. You are wrong again and are trying every trick in the book to cast doubt on the real truth of God's word.
    I have debunked every major wrong belief you have stated.
    When you know are flat out wrong you go on to something else by not commenting on it. Other times you try the cloak and dagger effect, but the truth of God's word exposes that tactic because it is sharper than any two- edged sword.
    You are not fooling as many people as you think you are and most do not believe your doctrine anyway.
    All you want to do is keep an argument going. Why? It would be plausible if you had a decent argument and some kind of decent logic but you don't, at least according to the scripture you don't.
    One thing is for sure is that you don't understand what a real and proper rebuttal is or what proper exegesis is. God help you to learn to be more pliable to the whole truth instead of just part of it. Jerry kelso
  15. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    It began with about 3,000 Israelites on the Day of Pentecost and continues to this day each time a person is "born again" through the Spirit and regenerated from death to life, as found in John 5:24.

    Act 2:4  And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 
    Act 2:12  So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, "Whatever could this mean?" 

    Act 2:14  But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 

    Act 2:16  But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 

    Act 2:22  "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 

    Act 2:36  "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." 

    Act 2:37  Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" 
    Act 2:38  Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    Act 2:41  Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. 

    This is the first resurrection found in John chapter 5, at John 5:24.
    The second is the bodily resurrection of the dead found in John 5:27-30.

    Both are found in Ezekiel 37, since the "everlasting covenant" is the New Covenant found in Jeremiah 31:31-34, Hebrews 8:6-13, Hebrews 12:22-24, and Hebrews 13:20.

    Last edited: Jul 19, 2017
  16. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter


    Heb 13:20  Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 
    (The Church-Age cannot come to an end before the Second Coming of Christ, since the New Covenant is "everlasting" and the Church is made up of all those members of the New Covenant. They are found in Revelation 12:11.)

    Heb 8:13  In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. 
    (The New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete". God is not going back to the Old Covenant as Classic Dispensationalists claim.)

    We see below the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, at the beginning of Luke 21:24. At the end of the verse we see that we are now in "the times of the Gentiles".
    The "times of the Gentiles are fulfilled" at the Second Coming of Christ, based on Luke 21:24-30.

    Luk 21:24  And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 

    The Coming of the Son of Man (subtitle from e-Sword)

    Luk 21:25  "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 
    Luk 21:26  men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 
    Luk 21:27  Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 
    Luk 21:28  Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near." 

    Last edited: Jul 19, 2017
  17. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. The New Covenant of the blood of Christ is not dependent on the Church age saints being left on earth.
    Hebrews 13:20 and Revelation 12:11 doesn't say that or imply that. That is your false assumption that is not found in the context.
    There is no other covenant that will save a soul.
    It is the Holy Spirit that draws men to him as John said.
    Joel said the Holy Spirit will fall on all flesh in that day Joel 2.

    2. God is not going back to the Old Covenant. The Jews will and those sacrifices will cease in the Abomination of Desolation.
    Revelation 11:1-2 is about the rod of destruction.
    Those Jews will know they need God but will still be blinded and will be till the time of the Gentiles come in at the end of the tribulation Romans 11:25-29.

    3. Luke 21:25-27 states nothing about the church age of this dispensation will be on earth waiting to be raptured at the Second Coming.
    Redemption drawing nigh will be for the Jewish remnant Matthew 24:31 which relates to Matthew 25 with the Ten wise and foolish virgins.
    This context is to the Jewish nation.
    I already told you the nature and purpose and how and why the rapture and the Second Coming
    are completely different and you have not and cannot debunk that truth.
    Not every dispensationalist are right about every single detail especially if they don't have the proper Jewish understanding.
    In the millennial there will be sacrifices because the feasts are forever not as a way to be saved but as a memorial. Passover is such a thing Leviticus 12:14
    You are beating a dead horse when at the same time you have no true biblical understanding of the scriptures on your false positions of the spiritual Jew theory to the extreme.
    Your false assumptions are so ridiculous.
    Many Gentiles comprehending many things because of not understanding the proper Jewish perspective of the true biblical context whether they are Dispensationalists, Covenant theology, Berean, Community or any other denominational or non-denominational church.
    Your posts show your beliefs fall into that category. Jerry kelso
  18. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    The Olive Tree of Romans 11 is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one tree.

    In the verse below Paul says that the Israelites broken off of the tree can be grafted back in through faith in Christ.
    This means they can be grafted into the Church, not into some other way of salvation.

    Rom 11:23  And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 

    Rom 11:24  For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 

    Rom 11:25  For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 
    (All of the Israelites were not "partially" blinded. Part of them were blinded and part of them were not.
    Based on Luke 21:24-30, the times of the Gentiles ends at the Second Coming of Christ.)

    Rom 11:26  And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "THE DELIVERER WILL COME OUT OF ZION, AND HE WILL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB; 
    (The Greek word "houto" in this verse is the method of their salvation, which refers back to verse 23. It is not the timing of their salvation.)

    (Based on Hebrews 10:16-18, this is the New Covenant of Christ, fulfilled at Calvary.) 

    Rom 11:28  Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 
    (There are two different groups of "they" in this verse. There are "they" who have rejected the Gospel and are now enemies and there are "they" who have accepted Christ and are the "election".)

    Rom 11:29  For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

    Paul starts the chapter in Romans 11:1-5 with two groups of Israelites, one faithful and one not.

    He ends the passage in the same way.

    There is no Plan B of salvation outside of the Church in this passage.

    The branches broken off of the Olive Tree will wither and die, unless they are grafted back in. 

    Last edited: Jul 19, 2017
  19. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

    United States
    Word of Faith
    Suppose you are at a concert of some kind, and it ends with a very long blast of a trumpet. All are amazed at the lung capacity of the "sounder." As you are driving home, you talk about that "last trumpet."

    OF COURSE you don't mean the last trumpet ever to sound! You mean the last trumpet blast of that concert.

    So when the bible says "last trump" it could have several meanings - NONE of which would be the last trumpet ever to sound. One bibilical "last trumpet" would be the 7th trumpet in Revelation. However, it is never called the "last" trump. It is sounded by an angel, not by Christ Himself.

    Then we consider "ages" or "times." The "age of grace" or the dispensation of grace will end one day. It could be a trumpet will sound at the close of that age.

    Then there is the 70th week of Daniel, another "age" or period of time. A trumpet could sound at the end of the 70th week.

    Then there is the feast of trumpets - feast that will end with a long trumpet sound - know to Jews as "the last trump" according to some.

    So when Paul wrote "the last trump" we don't have much to go one.
  20. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 
    1Co 15:23  But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 
    1Co 15:24  Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

    1Co 15:50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 
    1Co 15:51  Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 
    1Co 15:52  in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 
    1Co 15:53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

    Rev 11:15  Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" 

    Rev 11:18  The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."