Millennialism is no longer part of Christianity

[redleghunter]

I keep seeing people posting their ideas on the future "millennium", but millennialism was abolished by the first Council of Constantinople, and the Nicene Creed was changed to read, regarding Christ's kingdom, "whose kingdom shall have no end".

Millennialism is contrary to the Nicene Creed.

Someone needs to send a note to St Irenaeus of the policy change. Did both the east and west churches take his "Doctor of the Church" credentials away?

But with that, a millennial kingdom as depicted in Revelation 20 does not indicate a cessation of the Kingdom of God. That would require the King to no longer be. Where the King of kings resides matters not as He is eternal and His Kingdom, in our temporal terms, has always been and always will be. Our King is the Alpha and Omega.

And of course Irenaeus was convinced there was a resurrection of the Just and an earthly millennial kingdom. He gives his dissertation in Against Heresies Book V chapter 32 (it's worth reading chapter 31 as well). Irenaeus of course was refuting the Gnostic heresy and using the physical earthly kingdom as evidence one does not just pass from this body and go to "heaven" but there is a resurrection of the flesh.

Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 32:

1. Inasmuch, therefore, as the opinions of certain [orthodox persons] are derived from heretical discourses, they are both ignorant of God's dispensations, and of the mystery of the resurrection of the just, and of the [earthly] kingdom which is the commencement of incorruption, by means of which kingdom those who shall be worthy are accustomed gradually to partake of the divine nature (capere Deum ); and it is necessary to tell them respecting those things, that it behooves the righteous first to receive the promise of the inheritance which God promised to the fathers, and to reign in it, when they rise again to behold God in this creation which is renovated, and that the judgment should take place afterwards. For it is just that in that very creation in which they toiled or were afflicted, being proved in every way by suffering, they should receive the reward of their suffering; and that in the creation in which they were slain because of their love to God, in that they should be revived again; and that in the creation in which they endured servitude, in that they should reign. For God is rich in all things, and all things are His. It is fitting, therefore, that the creation itself, being restored to its primeval condition, should without restraint be under the dominion of the righteous; and the apostle has made this plain in the Epistle to the Romans, when he thus speaks: For the expectation of the creature waits for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature has been subjected to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope; since the creature itself shall also be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the sons of God. Romans 8:19, etc.

2. Thus, then, the promise of God, which He gave to Abraham, remains steadfast. For thus He said: Lift up your eyes, and look from this place where now you are, towards the north and south, and east and west. For all the earth which you see I will give to you and to your seed, even forever. Genesis 13:13-14 And again He says, Arise, and go through the length and breadth of the land, since I will give it unto you; Genesis 13:17 and [yet] he did not receive an inheritance in it, not even a footstep, but was always a stranger and a pilgrim therein. Acts 7:5; Hebrews 11:13 And upon the death of Sarah his wife, when the Hittites were willing to bestow upon him a place where he might bury her, he declined it as a gift, but bought the burying-place (giving for it four hundred talents of silver) from Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite. Genesis 23:11 Thus did he await patiently the promise of God, and was unwilling to appear to receive from men, what God had promised to give him, when He said again to him as follows: I will give this land to your seed, from the river of Egypt even unto the great river Euphrates. Genesis 15:13 If, then, God promised him the inheritance of the land, yet he did not receive it during all the time of his sojourn there, it must be, that together with his seed, that is, those who fear God and believe in Him, he shall receive it at the resurrection of the just. For his seed is the Church, which receives the adoption to God through the Lord, as John the Baptist said: For God is able from the stones to raise up children to Abraham. Luke 3:8 Thus also the apostle says in the Epistle to the Galatians: But you, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of the promise. Galatians 4:28 And again, in the same Epistle, he plainly declares that they who have believed in Christ do receive Christ, the promise to Abraham thus saying, The promises were spoken to Abraham, and to his seed. Now He does not say, And of seeds, as if [He spoke] of many, but as of one, And to your seed, which is Christ. Galatians 3:16 And again, confirming his former words, he says, Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know therefore, that they which are of faith are the children of Abraham. But the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, declared to Abraham beforehand, That in you shall all nations be blessed. So then they which are of faith shall be blessed with faithful Abraham. Galatians 3:6, etc. Thus, then, they who are of faith shall be blessed with faithful Abraham, and these are the children of Abraham. Now God made promise of the earth to Abraham and his seed; yet neither Abraham nor his seed, that is, those who are justified by faith, do now receive any inheritance in it; but they shall receive it at the resurrection of the just. For God is true and faithful; and on this account He said, Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. Matthew 5:5
(embedded Bible verses courtesy of the New Advent site)
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103532.htm​

 

[Dave L]

In general, yes I 'know' what I believe. I also have an understanding of Hermeneutics and Epistemology, both secular and biblical. But, does it matter all that much to the OP? My point here isn't to do to others what seems to be implied to me by others here: I'm not disparaging your faith, or your view on Amillennialism. As far as I'm concerned you're a firm brother in Christ. You might not see me as your brother in Christ if I don't think Amillennialism is the only eschatological game in town, but I still value your faith all the same. It might even turn out that if we were to do the real hermeneutical work of sifting through every verse in the Bible together, we might even have some common understandings on what we think they mean or ways in which we think they spiritually apply.

So, let's not go off on each other here and turn this into a baseball throwing contest to see who is the 'better' pitcher. My intention is to simply, but gently, contest the main point of the OP.

If you define the Kingdom according to Jesus, and make Revelation 20 conform to it, you will understand Revelation 20. Today it is just the opposite. Without supporting scripture, prophecy buffs insert a gap into Daniel's 70 weeks, and stuff it like a pita with false prophecies. Then they read it into Revelation and force the NT teachings to conform to it.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

I keep seeing people posting their ideas on the future "millennium", but millennialism was abolished by the first Council of Constantinople, and the Nicene Creed was changed to read, regarding Christ's kingdom, "whose kingdom shall have no end".

Millennialism is contrary to the Nicene Creed.

The Nicean Creed regarding the millennium i

Some of us know because faith comes from hearing the word. You cannot have faith based on theory or conjecture.

The day of victory (vv. 1–5, 12–15)

Hi the Nicean creed is in contradiction with the scriptures. Dave has been vocal on this topic and makes an interesting point, “Some of us know because faith comes from hearing the word. You cannot have faith based on theory or conjecture. “ Then all of Dave's observations are made based on theory and conjecture. In the 1st advent of Jesus all the prophecy of Zechariah were literal such as coming on the foal of a donkey and being betrayed for 30 pieces of silver. So when someone points out Zech 14 and the MT of Olives splitting in two; is a metaphor? Is it really a metaphor that creates a new valley too with specific boundaries and that create a new river that flows in very specific directions, also flowing year round?

The book of Daniels chapter 2 describes the coming of the kingdom age as a stone cut without hands descending and then destroying and leaving no trace of man’s kingdoms and then becoming a mountain (kingdom) that covers the whole earth and this kingdom will have no end. Rev says Satan will be bound for 1000 years and the nations who were deceived will not be deceived again for the whole 1000 years. In Zech 14 on the day that the MT of Olives splits in two it is a day when Jerusalem is being overrun and a day in which the LORD melts his enemies. On this day it is also dark in the day and light at night. On this day the LORD is declared king over all the earth. Dan 2 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken in pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing-floors; and the wind carried them away, so that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. You see the kingdom starts at the 2nd coming depicted in Zech 14 and this kingdom is not a 1000 year reign but an eternal one. Jesus reign is not interrupted at the end of the 1000 years; He is still ruling and reigning when the New Jerusalem comes down.

Scripture establishes the timeline for us. Daniel 7 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22 until the ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High, and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. The fourth beast shall be a fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all the kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24 And as for the ten horns, out of this kingdom shall ten kings arise: and another shall arise after them; and he shall be diverse from the former, and he shall put down three kings. 25 And he shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High; and he shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and half a time. 26 But the judgment shall be set, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. 27 And the kingdom and the dominion, and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High: his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. This passage in Daniels puts the kingdom at the end of a time when an evil one rises and has power for a time, times and half a time. This is in sinc with Revelation given the beast dominion for 42 months. If you observe the destruction in Zech 14 Jerusalem is over run when the LORD saves them. If you look at the and of the 1000 years when Satan is released he musters and army surround the city and fire comes down from heaven and that is it. The nations have never been more deceived then now and Satan has never been bound. The kingdom will come and follow the timeline set in the law and prophets and New Testament. They are in harmony and without contradiction.

Parting shot those who deny the millennium and take Dave's method and have the church replacing Israel in the covenants and prophecies and see no significance with Israel being in the land again and their moves towards restoring the daily sacrifices: The literal view sees the soon return of the Temple and daily

sacrifice as the stage set for the literal antichrist to come and commit the abomination of desolation in. Reality is lining up with the literal view as the world is moving towards a global government that is completely opposed to Biblical truth. The nation of Israel will be divided and the preparations for the return of the sacrifice are all made. The current events line up with a literal view of scripture. At any rate all of us be repented of our sins and be sharing the good news of the cross.

Ellsworth, R. (2010). Opening Up Zechariah (pp. 132–133). Leominster: Day One Publications.

Dave in your subsequent post you say you must

 

[~Anastasia~]

Good morning brother.

Do you see in this quote the necessity of a kingdom on earth as it is now, with all the righteous resurrected, ruling for 1000 years after which Satan is to be released and a Great War? Or some other interpretation?

I'm just curious.

We of course accept St. Iranaeus. But our expectation is of a renewed earth on which our glorified bodies received at the Resurrection will live, and God with us. I agree that our expectation is not to be forever in heaven (though souls that depart may go there before the resurrection of the body).

Just curious how you read this since you seem to cite it in support of modern millennialism? Or do I misunderstand?

God be with you.

Someone needs to send a note to St Irenaeus of the policy change. Did both the east and west churches take his "Doctor of the Church" credentials away?

But with that, a millennial kingdom as depicted in Revelation 20 does not indicate a cessation of the Kingdom of God. That would require the King to no longer be. Where the King of kings resides matters not as He is eternal and His Kingdom, in our temporal terms, has always been and always will be. Our King is the Alpha and Omega.

And of course Irenaeus was convinced there was a resurrection of the Just and an earthly millennial kingdom. He gives his dissertation in Against Heresies Book V chapter 32 (it's worth reading chapter 31 as well). Irenaeus of course was refuting the Gnostic heresy and using the physical earthly kingdom as evidence one does not just pass from this body and go to "heaven" but there is a resurrection of the flesh.

Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 32:

1. Inasmuch, therefore, as the opinions of certain [orthodox persons] are derived from heretical discourses, they are both ignorant of God's dispensations, and of the mystery of the resurrection of the just, and of the [earthly] kingdom which is the commencement of incorruption, by means of which kingdom those who shall be worthy are accustomed gradually to partake of the divine nature (capere Deum ); and it is necessary to tell them respecting those things, that it behooves the righteous first to receive the promise of the inheritance which God promised to the fathers, and to reign in it, when they rise again to behold God in this creation which is renovated, and that the judgment should take place afterwards. For it is just that in that very creation in which they toiled or were afflicted, being proved in every way by suffering, they should receive the reward of their suffering; and that in the creation in which they were slain because of their love to God, in that they should be revived again; and that in the creation in which they endured servitude, in that they should reign. For God is rich in all things, and all things are His. It is fitting, therefore, that the creation itself, being restored to its primeval condition, should without restraint be under the dominion of the righteous; and the apostle has made this plain in the Epistle to the Romans, when he thus speaks: For the expectation of the creature waits for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature has been subjected to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope; since the creature itself shall also be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the sons of God. Romans 8:19, etc.

2. Thus, then, the promise of God, which He gave to Abraham, remains steadfast. For thus He said: Lift up your eyes, and look from this place where now you are, towards the north and south, and east and west. For all the earth which you see I will give to you and to your seed, even forever. Genesis 13:13-14 And again He says, Arise, and go through the length and breadth of the land, since I will give it unto you; Genesis 13:17 and [yet] he did not receive an inheritance in it, not even a footstep, but was always a stranger and a pilgrim therein. Acts 7:5; Hebrews 11:13 And upon the death of Sarah his wife, when the Hittites were willing to bestow upon him a place where he might bury her, he declined it as a gift, but bought the burying-place (giving for it four hundred talents of silver) from Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite. Genesis 23:11 Thus did he await patiently the promise of God, and was unwilling to appear to receive from men, what God had promised to give him, when He said again to him as follows: I will give this land to your seed, from the river of Egypt even unto the great river Euphrates. Genesis 15:13 If, then, God promised him the inheritance of the land, yet he did not receive it during all the time of his sojourn there, it must be, that together with his seed, that is, those who fear God and believe in Him, he shall receive it at the resurrection of the just. For his seed is the Church, which receives the adoption to God through the Lord, as John the Baptist said: For God is able from the stones to raise up children to Abraham. Luke 3:8 Thus also the apostle says in the Epistle to the Galatians: But you, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of the promise. Galatians 4:28 And again, in the same Epistle, he plainly declares that they who have believed in Christ do receive Christ, the promise to Abraham thus saying, The promises were spoken to Abraham, and to his seed. Now He does not say, And of seeds, as if [He spoke] of many, but as of one, And to your seed, which is Christ. Galatians 3:16 And again, confirming his former words, he says, Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know therefore, that they which are of faith are the children of Abraham. But the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, declared to Abraham beforehand, That in you shall all nations be blessed. So then they which are of faith shall be blessed with faithful Abraham. Galatians 3:6, etc. Thus, then, they who are of faith shall be blessed with faithful Abraham, and these are the children of Abraham. Now God made promise of the earth to Abraham and his seed; yet neither Abraham nor his seed, that is, those who are justified by faith, do now receive any inheritance in it; but they shall receive it at the resurrection of the just. For God is true and faithful; and on this account He said, Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. Matthew 5:5
(embedded Bible verses courtesy of the New Advent site)
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103532.htm​

 

[Dave L]

The Nicean Creed regarding the millennium i




Dave in your subsequent post you say you must

I'm not sure what you are talking about you thinking I said "you must".

 

[2PhiloVoid]

If you define the Kingdom according to Jesus, and make Revelation 20 conform to it, you will understand Revelation 20. Today it is just the opposite. Without supporting scripture, prophecy buffs insert a gap into Daniel's 70 weeks, and stuff it like a pita with false prophecies. Then they read it into Revelation and force the NT teachings to conform to it.

And what about all of the 19 chapters that come before chapter 20? Are you implying that you've got the inside scoop on exactly what they all mean?

I'm not saying you're wrong or that Amillennialism is off the table for being considered some expression of God's Truth, you're kind of begging some questions here.

 

[Dave L]

And what about all of the 19 chapters that come before chapter 20? Are you implying that you've got the inside scoop on exactly what they all mean?

I'm not saying you're wrong or that Amillennialism is off the table for being considered some expression of God's Truth, you're kind of begging some questions here.

I use the recapitulation view of Revelation. This is the view in the oldest commentary ever found to date on Revelation. Essentially, Revelation gives 7 parallel views of the same events beginning with the New Covenant and ending with the return of Christ. Then the New Heavens and earth.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I use the recapitulation view of Revelation. This is the view in the oldest commentary ever found to date on Revelation. Essentially, Revelation gives 7 parallel views of the same events beginning with the New Covenant and ending with the return of Christ. Then the New Heavens and earth.

Ok. You use the recapitulation view. And so, how do you know, in absolute terms, that this is indeed correct? How would anyone know that this view is indeed the correct one?

 

[Dave L]

Ok. You use the recapitulation view. And so, how do you know, in absolute terms, that this is indeed correct? How would anyone know that this view is indeed the correct one?

If you study up on it and give it a try, you can stop looking for the symbols to appear. And begin looking at what the symbols represent. And thereby see prophetic fulfillment throughout history and sort a know what to expect in the future.

 

[redleghunter]

Jesus will return for his "second coming" to judge the quick and the dead. There are not enough verses to support a theory Jesus will return to bind Satan for a thousand years, return to loose Satan to wreck havoc on mankind and then later return to judge the quick and the dead ending the prevalence of evil in the universe.

I am not a millenialist, but look for Jesus' second coming at the end of this world.

That's not how Revelation breaks it down.

Revelation 19 is the second coming of Christ to Earth.
Revelation 20:1-3 satan bound for a 1000 years
Revelation 20:4-6 the resurrection of the just and the reign of Christ on earth for a 1000 years.
Revelation 20:7-10 satan released, the war and the defeat of the unrighteous.
Revelation 20:11-15 Great White Throne (GWT) Judgement and those not found in the Book of Life thrown in the Lake of Fire.

 

[redleghunter]

And I have faith that Jesus and all the NT believers were Amillennial. It is solidly presented in scripture.

Maybe the apostles were confused then?

Acts 1: NASB
6So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” 7He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”

 

[redleghunter]

If the millennium is not mentioned in scripture, how can you have faith in it?

Does your church recognize the Book of Revelation as inspired Holy Scriptures?

mil·len·ni·um
məˈlenēəm/
noun
noun: millennium; plural noun: millennia; plural noun: millenniums

1. 1.
   a period of a thousand years, especially when calculated from the traditional date of the birth of Christ.
   • Christian Theology
     the prophesied thousand-year reign of Christ at the end of the age (Rev. 20:1–5).
     noun: the millennium
   • a utopian period of good government, great happiness, and prosperity.
     noun: the millennium

2.
an anniversary of a thousand years.
"the millennium of the Russian Orthodox Church"

• the point at which one period of a thousand years ends

Revelation 20: NASB
4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

 

[Dave L]

Maybe the apostles were confused then?

Acts 1: NASB
6So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” 7He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”

This happens on the last day. The restoration of Israel (Believers in Christ) happens in the resurrection and rapture into the new heavens and earth. (I have more on this if interested).

 

[redleghunter]

still think it's possible, and possibly necessary, to interpret OT prophesies "spiritually"

true spiritual Israel --> Christians (Messianic Jews + Christian gentiles)
true spiritual Temple --> Christians
true spiritual Jerusalem (in Israel encompassing the Temple) --> Christians

If so, OT Prophesies do not apply to physical Jerusalem, a physical temple or national Israel.

How do you handle Isaiah 61 spiritually?

 

[Dave L]

Does your church recognize the Book of Revelation as inspired Holy Scriptures?

mil·len·ni·um
məˈlenēəm/
noun
noun: millennium; plural noun: millennia; plural noun: millenniums

1. 1.
   a period of a thousand years, especially when calculated from the traditional date of the birth of Christ.
   • Christian Theology
     the prophesied thousand-year reign of Christ at the end of the age (Rev. 20:1–5).
     noun: the millennium
   • a utopian period of good government, great happiness, and prosperity.
     noun: the millennium

2.
an anniversary of a thousand years.
"the millennium of the Russian Orthodox Church"

• the point at which one period of a thousand years ends

Revelation 20: NASB
4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

This involves reading into Revelation (adding to the book). Jesus defined the kingdom and if do not limit it to what he said, we add to the book and become liable to its curses.

 

[redleghunter]

This happens on the last day. The restoration of Israel (Believers in Christ) happens in the resurrection and rapture into the new heavens and earth. (I have more on this if interested).

It's an interesting interpretation, but those asking Christ this very question just spent 40 days with Him. Within the context of period this was asked, there was a firm belief there would be a physical kingdom one day.

I'll ask the same question I asked another poster. How do your spiritualize Isaiah 61?

 

[redleghunter]

This involves reading into Revelation (adding to the book). Jesus defined the kingdom and if do not limit it to what he said, we add to the book and become liable to its curses.

Dude you said there was no millennium in the Bible. I just showed you there is. 1000 years is defined as a millennium. What did I add to 'the book' in quoting the actual passages which say "1000 years?"

 

[Dave L]

Dude you said there was no millennium in the Bible. I just showed you there is. 1000 years is defined as a millennium. What did I add to 'the book' in quoting the actual passages which say "1000 years?"

The 1000 years = Satan's binding. Not the Kingdom. Satan attacks the kingdom when the 1000 years expire.

 

[redleghunter]

There is no mention of a millennium in the NT. Revelation 20 symbolizes the binding of Satan with the 1000 years symbol.

Where in the text does it suggest 1000 years is a symbol?

 

[Dave L]

Where in the text does it suggest 1000 years is a symbol?

When the 1000 years end Satan is loosed.