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Featured Millennial Considerations

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Stephen Mendes, Dec 3, 2017.

  1. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    Zechariah 14:1-4 is the battle of armageddon and second advent

    Zechariah 14:12 is the Lords Final Judgment by fire, 2 Peter 3:10-13

    Only the righteous are in the Lords Eternal, The unsaved are in the lake of fire.

    Verse 8 The river of life is present, also seen in Revelation 22:1-5

    You try to use human reason in dealing with the details of those not coming to worship, and equate this with unsaved, not so

    When you question the order of events, Matthew 25:31-46 will straighten ya out!

    Verses 31-32 Jesus returns with the angels, nations gathered for judgment.

    Verse 34 the eternal kingdom is presented for the righteous

    Verse 41 The wicked are judged to the eternal lake of fire

    Verse 46 The righteous obtain eternal life, and enter the eternal kingdom seen in verse 34

    And also seen in Zechariah 14

    And also seen in Isaiah 11 & 65 & 66

    And Ezekiel 47

    And On And On
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
  2. Tom Farebrother

    Tom Farebrother Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If I have understood correctly what you are saying, I disagree completely. I think the opposite is true -it is only by seriously studying the bible, not just reading it hap-hazardly, that you can begin to get some idea of what was meant when it was written, not just what it sort of seems to mean according to whoever is reading it. When a person just makes up what they think it means as they go along, they are interpreting the bible, just not very effectively
     
  3. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    It is difficult online, on forums, and even in person to know, understand, and to tell what a person is seeking and what is in their heart . Sure, God Knows, and sometimes God Reveals this,
    but we are not mind readers and probably should not guess, right ?
    So then, if we do as Jesus says to do, and spend a lot of time, frequently, with the Father in [private] prayer, He says that G R A D U A L L Y our focus WILL CHANGE TO HIM from ourselves. This is always our desire in Christ Jesus.
    Waiting on Him for all things (not "not doing anything" expecting things to happen on their own; but relying on Him and resting in His Promises and DOing His Word as He directs us) ...... leads to what He Wants, always in line, and in perfect harmony, with all of His Word. Amen. HalleluYAH ! MARANANTHA! Come quickly Master JESUS, MESSIAH HEALER COMFORTER SAVIOR KING !
     
  4. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Since we are talking about the eternal kingdom, is it then your position that is will be like that for all eternity, the following, especially what I have underlined?

    Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
    17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
    18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
    19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.



    If we also look at Isaiah 60, specifically verses 9-22, and do some comparing with Rev 21 and 22, it becomes apparent that the timeframe in mind is meaning the new heavens and new earth, IOW the eternal kingdom that comes with it.

    Isaiah 60:12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.


    This indicates that during this period of time, the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted. Is one expected to conclude that this is the case for all eternity, that this threat will be there forever? Or would it be more reasonable to conclude that this specifically speaks of a period of time during the new heavens and new earth? That period of time meaning the thousand years. Otherwise one would have to conclude, billions of years from now, as an example, those still living on the earth are still under the threat of Isaiah 60:12.
     
  5. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

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    You are correct!

    I call these subject specific vantage points of the same event. Like describing the many paths subjects take, leading up to the event, the crescendo. The language certainly intensities as it nears the crescendo, where all the subjects confront each other at the crescendo. Revelation 19 reverberates this drum roll, when all subjects/parties meet head to head in the finale.
     
  6. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    This is correct. and that is why it is absolutely necessary ti believe in a future temporary kingdom on this earth after Messiah returns and before the new heavens and the new earth.

    For the scriptures quoted to disprove this do not actually say what the amils claim they mean, while the scriptures that describe this period are explicitly stated in plain words.
     
  7. SeventhFisherofMen

    SeventhFisherofMen Disciple Supporter

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    Dude Stephen I want to start out by saying thank you man.

    Thank you for voicing exactly what comes to mind whenever I hear a pastor try to break down a very simple verse into meaning something far more complex than was intended. Don't get me wrong I do believe there are hidden gems in the Bible but I also believe that the Bible was written so that we can understand it not need someone to tutor us in what the Greek really meant.

    I always think it's funny when people say stuff like, "Here we can see the word 'Father' written here when Jesus refers to God as His Father, but in the Greek the same word for father is used 10 other times and really means entity or being that is without gender. All those times God is referred to as a 'He' isn't really meaning God is a male, it just means I can stand here and tell you it means whatever I want it to mean." Like come on really? Is it really so triggering to refer to God as a He?

    Anyways I just want to say thank you so much for voicing an opinion I felt so alone in thinking I had. Jesus created us, and God invented languages when He created us and again when He scattered everyone during the tower of babel incident. If God wanted to and if Jesus wanted to they could have been very complex in how they communicated to us. But even when Jesus does speak in a complex manner when using parables He breaks it down for the disciples and for us, who are also His disciples, to understand.

    I always like to say when people try to pull the whole "What God actually means by this is this other thing." If God truly meant that other thing, then He would have said that other thing. The God who created everything, created languages and knows the future, who knew how the Bible would be translated by very well knowing Bible translators, I'm pretty sure He knew what would be best to have said when He spoke in both the old and new testament times.
     
  8. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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  9. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Not my faulty.

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    Funny. The very thing he spent 9 minutes saying wouldn't happen is described in Revelation 20:5 'The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.'

    So much for him destroying anything.
     
  10. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

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    A very good video.

    When Jesus returns, the books will be opened, that is both the book of life and the book of the damned will come into effect, at the end of the Harvest, when the seventh trumpet (The Trumpet of God) is sounded and time no longer declared. At this point, hell and death cannot continue, for the last enemy death would have been defeated, meaning nullified and ceases to continue.

    The millenium referred to the Saints as compared to the millenium referred to the wicked and Satan's expiry are two entirely different milleniums, that do not run concurrently, rather one ends and the other begins. One has an expiry date, whilst the one that follows is eternal and has no ending.

    The chaining of Satan happened at the cross and climaxed when the 1st beast and the false religious system (false prophet) were destroyed in the 1st century, which paved the way for the Woman of Revelation 12, the Church to be given wings, to spread the gospel globally into the earth that opened up for her, in the form of newly discovered continents, hence that is why it is written those who are its seed are those who have and hold onto the testimony of Jesus Christ. So the 12 stars on her head are the 12 founding disciples/messengers and the moon under her feet, is the fulfilment of the Mosaic Law and the Sun she is clothed with is the Gospel of the Son that she birthed under much persecution (labour pains) from the 1st beast and false Pharasiacal religious system that chased her from town to town, city to city (see Acts of the Apostles).

    The millenium for the wicked and Satan ends at his release at the fifth and sixth trumpet, where the beast of the bottomless Pitt aka Satan will turn his sights on dealing with the seed of the woman, the Church, who are the symbols of the two witnesses, the law and the prophets and he will martyr them on the streets of every city, in a world wide Calvary.

    Then soon after Satan deals with the Church and her seed, the elect that remain are protected supernaturally according to the chambers mentioned in Isaiah 26:20, where then God pours out his final woe before the 7th Trumpet is sounded.

    God obliterates this world and all the earthly kingdoms are consumed by the anger of his jealousy and then we have the final last dash effort of Satan and his armies, who encircle the camp of the elect, just before Christ's brilliant coming, that annihilates this material realm, the first earth and first heaven and then ushers in his eternal millenium, at the wedding supper of the Lamb of God, where his bride is consecrated as the white cloud that accompanies him, wherever he goes in his Father's House in the 3rd Heaven.

    The brief summary of events from beginning to end is Revelation 20, where you have the millenium of the wicked and Satan' expiry. This is followed by Satan's blood thirst for the Church, who are the symbol of the two witnesses, leading up to Satan's final judgment and ending at the Judgement of the dead, at the end of the harvest when the books are opened. This is the great white throne, where those found in the book of life, enter in the eternal millenium with Jesus in the resurrection of the dead, that is the 1st resurrection and the rest who were found in the book of the damned are annihilated in the lake of fire, which is the second death, the death of the soul. Death and hell cannot continue past this point and so too is the 1st earth and 1st heaven dissolved forever. The second death has no hold on those who enter the wedding supper of the lamb of God, because they are the many martyrs who have made their robes white by the blood of the lamb, as the tribulation saints.

    Revelation 20 is a brief summary of events from the beginning to the end, from the 1st century, when Satan was chained to the end of the harvest when Satan is released, resulting in the one for all final judgment at the great white throne.

    So the rapture doctrine is really the trump card of the enemy to give a false sense of hope and when that hope is dashed by the false date setters and then followed by persecution, many will be disillusioned and leave the faith, to save their own skins. The final rallying motto for the true Christians is TO DIE FOR YOUR LORD.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
  11. LastSeven

    LastSeven Veteran Supporter

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    No it isn't.
    Fixed that for ya.

    You talking about the words that Moses wrote? Notice that Moses was a man.

    Once again, Moses was a man. As I said, it's a book written by men.

    Er, no. Jesus said that we shall live by "every word of God", not "every word of the Bible". Do you really not understand the difference?

    So the prophecies came as men were moved by the Holy Spirit. No argument there. And Paul spoke according to the wisdom given to him. Again, no argument there. Still doesn't say that the Bible was written by God.

    Ya. So tell me again, where does it say that the Bible was written by God?


    Ya, lots of quotes of the words of God. No argument there. Still don't see where it says the the Bible was written by God.

    Ya, every word of God is pure. So tell me again, where does it say that the Bible was written by God?

    We are warned against changing any of the prophecy of the book of Revelation, that's true. And remember, prophecy came through men inspired by God. Once again proving that the Bible was written by men. Some of it was inspired by God, yes. Some of it quotes the word of God, yes. Some of it was prophecy directly from God, of course. But it was still written by men.

    If it had been written by God it would've been perfect, but as we all know there are many errors and contradictions in the Bible. Mostly insignificant, but errors nonetheless. God would not have made those errors. The Bible was written by men.
     
  12. LastSeven

    LastSeven Veteran Supporter

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    And yet, the Bible we read today includes words that were not in the original manuscripts. Couldn't God have prevented that from happening? Of course he could've, but he didn't.

    Don't make the mistake of thinking that the Bible is perfect and that all translations are perfect. Even comparing the two most common English versions, KJV and NIV, we can find many differences in meanings. So which one is perfect? Neither.
     
  13. LastSeven

    LastSeven Veteran Supporter

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    Heresy? What could possibly be considered heretical about the truth?

    Or do you think that the men who wrote the Bible thousands of years ago, in an ancient language on the other side of the world, wrote it in a way that would make sense to the 21st century American perhaps? Do you really think you were the target audience? And do you really think they had any idea what would make sense to you today?
     
  14. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    Dave Its hard not to separate "The Family Of Egypt" "Heathen""Plague" from a earthly sense, I believe figurative speech, reflecting back to the disobedience of Pharaoh.

    When you look at Isaiah 65 & 66 you see what appears to be a earthly kingdom, but the chapters identify itself clearly as the New Hea en. Earth.

    I gave you Matthew 25:31-46 to help with a foundation, Jesus returns in judgment verses 31-32, the eternal kingdom is presented to the righteous in verse 34, The wicked are judged to the lake of fire verse 41, the righteous obtain eternal life in verse 46 and enter the eternal kingdom in verse 34

    Has this biblical truth fallen on deaf ears?

    Zechariah 14 is the eternal kingdom, verse 6-7 eternal light, verse 8 river of life, the parallel teaching is Revelation 22:1-5

    Appears you want to maintain a mortal, human, earthly kingdom for 1000 years, then have a eternal kingdom follow?

    When you believe Matthew 25:31-46 as true, you will be able to move on with that foundation.

    Jesus returns in "Final Judgment" "Eternal Kingdom", the glorified body has been received, the resurrection is past, eternity has started.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
  15. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    2 Peter 1:21KJV
    For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
  16. birdetto

    birdetto New Member

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    Thanks Stephen Mendes, for stating your ideas. The literal approach that you take is the one taken by (what seems to me) the vast majority of persons looking to understand the Bible. At first thought, it does seem like the most intuitive way the Bible should be written. I would be happy enough if it were the case, I suppose. However, very few people go beyond their own intuitive ideas about it being written in a simple literal way to actually ask for scripture to back that up. When looking for scripture to back the idea up, we find, instead, that the Bible makes a different claim. Here is what the Bible says about the way that it is written:

    "Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth. I will open my mouth in a parable" (from Psalm 78)

    In this verse we find that the law (that means the Bible), the words of God's mouth (the Bible), is actually written as a parable.

    Mark chapter 4 backs this up. It is the chapter which talks about sowing the word (that is, the entire Bible). There, we read: "But without a parable spake he not unto them".

    Astounding and interesting. Your church did not likely teach you this. It appears that the Bible makes the claim that no speaking is done through it except by parable. "But without a parable spake he not unto them"!

    The reason for this is not perhaps obvious. In the same chapter we learn that unto the believers it is given to understand the mysteries of the kingdom but unto those who are unsaved everything is a parable that they do not understand. They encounter the words of the Bible the same as believers, but the mystery of what it means is hidden in the parable. Contrarily, the chapter tells us that "when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples." This means that God does reveal meaning to his own believers. His own believers have a personal relationship with Jesus such that when they are alone with him he expounds meaning. Unbelievers do not seem to have this: "That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them." It is God's own business who he chooses to hear or not hear and it is he who does the saving. I will simply note that the Bible says that it is written as a parable.

    We do get a look at what parables are in Mark 4. We find that they are earthly stories with a spiritual meaning, in the Bible's case usually revolving around God's salvation plan. 'How do we understand the Bible ?' is answered by Jesus in that chapter when he asks: "and how then will ye know all parables?" He then begins to explain that the earthly story has a spiritual meaning. For example, thorns in the story are not really the thorns you might find in someone's back yard. Rather, thorns are 'such as hear the word, And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.' That is really quite different from just literal thorns, like blackberry thorns for example. Jesus is letting us know that the surface literal story has an interpreted meaning, that must be understood to get at the real meaning.
     
  17. cfdude

    cfdude Newbie

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    The inerrancy debate will go on because of those who have faith and those who don't. Faith allows interpretative methodologies to be discovered whereas the closed heart will easily concede to admitting errors in the original writings. I won't debate that issue here as this thread was not written to deal with such a topic. Suffice it to say that it will probably just end of being a copy and paste match of each other's websites of arguments and explanations, each with it's own presuppositions of faith. Been there done that.

    Even the entire millennial question itself is answered by faith to those who know their God and His Word by rational faith. The amillennial point of view vs the premillenial view is easily solved by allowing the vast majority of old testament prophets to speak and interpret the earthly scenario that is yet to play out. There is no need to completely obfuscate their meanings but rather what is needed is to understand them.

    First, it must be understood that God described cities to represent either sides of the spiritual war. Some were prophetically pejorative in nature (Isa 1:10, Rev 11:8), while God's own city was heralded prophetically although not meant for them at the time that it was written (Isa 52:1, Psa 135:21). Understanding that biblical theology will help in this regard.

    In Ezek 38:2, the "chief prince" behind Gog and Magog is the long awaited dragon's false messiah (Ezek 38:17). Rev 17:8 tells us that he comes out of the underworld. Whatever we think about him, we know that Satan owns the world's nations (John 12:31, 14:30, 16:11) and is a chief prince of angels (Rev 12:7, Lk 11:15-18, Eph 2:2).

    So, when Christ comes back and it says in Rev 20:8 that Satan will be loosed again to the four corners of Gog and Magog it is referring to the worldy nations still given to him that are under his control (Mat 4:8-9). Ezek and Rev are two different events, both revealing the transitional trials and purges carried out by God. It is not referring to the historic Gog and Magog but is a reminder or pointer to the same assailant and spiritual king of Ezek 38 who still owns the land or earth until Christ puts him under his feet (1 Cor 15:24-25).

    In the same way, this anti-christ is also called the Assyrian (Isa 14:25, 31:8) and the king of Babylon at the same time (Isa 14:4). He is the ruler behind the nations.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2017
  18. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    You name three different "bad dudes" of end time prophecy, and simply assume that all three of them are speaking of the same future individual. Why would they all speak of the same future individual? The origins and actions of all three are explicitly stated, and they are all different. And even the lists of allies, where they exist, are not the same, although some nations are on more than one list.
     
  19. Stephen Mendes

    Stephen Mendes New Member

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    That is a rather dogmatic statement to make .... how can you be so dogon dogmatic ? ..... at best, a human might conclude that 'based on their study of the Bible and their system of prophetic interpretation .... it does not appear as though there will be a rapture or millennial reign of Christ'

    Anybody less opinionated.... could cite various other verses that are not quite so easy to smugly put away with the grand sweeping phase 'All verses used to support the rapture are actually referring to the yet-future second coming of Christ' .

    Far be it from me to launch into any everlasting discussion of this topic..... I would merely like to suggest at this point that many Biblical scholars endowed with equal wisdom and understanding have done extensive research and come to completely different conclusions.

    Let holiness (without which no man shall see God) and humility (which is really important to God) dominate all of us who name the name of Christ.... and please let us not be quite so dogmatic about issues that are speculative at best.

    In a future message on my Bible blog.... I will cite some reasons and the verses that make me believe that Jesus Christ will reign over mortal man and on a physical earth before the 'eternal state'.... however I do not expect my conclusion to be shared by everybody... and it does not matter.... because what is of utmost importance to God is not our ability to correctly predict the future or scientifically analyse the past.... but rather to do justice, love mercy and to walk humbly with our Lord... right now .... today ... in 'our' present (Micah 6:8)
     
  20. cfdude

    cfdude Newbie

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    That is the assumption you are placing on the text in confusion. If you understand the prophets then you will know that God has a final axe to which he will chop down His people and then that axe boasts against Him and God then turns against him also in judgment (Ezek 38:17).
     
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