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Featured Millennial Considerations

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Stephen Mendes, Dec 3, 2017.

  1. Stephen Mendes

    Stephen Mendes New Member

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    I just started this topic on my Bible Blog with a view to comparing the various beliefs.... one of the biggest problems I find when people start constructing explanations of passages is that anyone can have a go at it.... and there can be as many 'interpretations' as there are people !

    Therefore I have to adopt the LITERAL approach (where possible)..... I am absolutely convinced that the Bible is written to be understood by average humans.... it is counterproductive to suppose that God would communicate in such an obscure way that we would have to 'invent' an interpretation to make a passage agree with our 'conceived storyline'.

    The evidence suggests that God talks to humans in plain language so as to ensure both understanding and compliance...... it is us, people, who would want to construct alternative interpretations.... so we could either justify ourselves for non-compliance or at least excuse ourselves for misinterpretation and/or lack of understanding the instructions.

    Starting with a literal reading of the text (and only interpreting obvious non-literal parts to fit with the literal parts) has to be the 'proper' approach..... the approach that God expects.... otherwise the Bible has NO 'authority' at all ..... and we can make Bible say whatever we want..... and it's quite obvious to me that many groups of people have done that and are quite happy about it too.

    Stephen's Bible Insights
     
  2. jesus316

    jesus316 All Truth is in Jesus

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    I agree with the literal approach. The problem I've noticed is: people claim to be literal, but aren't literal at all whenever it suits them. For example, the chain that binds Satan. Maybe they think it's a physical chain, but how can a physical chain bind a spiritual being? The chain literally resides in the spiritual realm, the same place as Satan who is bound by it.

    Another example: the wings and feathers of God he covers us with (Psalms 91:4). Literalists immediately assume the image is figurative because they assume God doesn't have wings and feathers. But God resides in the spiritual realm, so the wings and feathers are real actual objects composed of spiritual stuff. From there you can try to figure out what this means. But once you decide ahead of time that such and such an image must be figurative, the choices become completely arbitrary.

    Also, I think we need to distinguish between events in the physical realm and events in the spiritual realm. For example, the book of Revelation starting with chapter 4 (Revelation 4) all occurs in the spiritual realm. When John says he saw a beast, he actually literally saw one. Literalists usually assume (but they don't know they do this) John is using these images symbolically. But this implies that when John says he saw a beast, that he didn't really see one; that he is constructing some sort of allegory similar to Paul Bunyan's "Pilgrim's Progress". This is not literal.

    In my view, all passages used to describe conditions in a yet-future 1,000 year millennium are actually referring to the eternal utopian new heavens and new earth. There will not be a yet-future 1,000 year millennium, nor a rapture. All verses used to support the rapture are actually referring to the yet-future second coming of Christ.
     
  3. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    I see four simple rules for interpreting Bible prophecy.

    1. Prophetic visions are symbolic.

    In every prophetic dream or vision in the entire Bible, which is accompanied with an inspired interpretation, the prophesied event was never, not even once, what the prophet saw. Instead, what the prophet saw was a visual symbol that represented what was going to happen.

    2. Explicit statements that certain events were going to take place always mean exactly what they say.

    In every explicit statement of a coming event in the entire Bible, which referred to something which has already taken place, the statement was literally accurate, down to the tiniest detail. An example of this is Daniel 11:5-35, which describes a series of wars which lasted about 150 years, in such high detail that unbelievers claim that its very accuracy proves that it could not have been written before the wars actually took place.

    3. The explicit statements of the Bible are sometimes phrased using common and obvious figures of speech.

    A few examples of this are Jesus saying "I am the door" and "I am the way."

    4. It is impossible to completely understand any prophecy in the Bible, without taking into consideration every other prophecy that deals with the same subject.

    When these these rules are strictly observed, most of the problems in interpreting Bible prophecy simply disappear.

    But one of the biggest problems in this line, is people that get so hung up on heir interpretation of the meaning of one prophecy that they ignore the explicit statements of other prophecies, that show that their interpretation simply can not be correct.

    A sad example of this is the very large of people that simply ignore (or, in many cases, are completely ignorant of) the very many explicitly stated prophecies about the end time individual that the scriptures call "the Assyrian."
     
  4. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    One of the biggest problems with many interpretations of Revelation chapter 20 is the fact that the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

    We have Christ returning in Revelation 16:15-16 and also in chapter 19.
    Therefore, there is no way the book can be in perfect chronological order.


    Instead, the Book of Revelation is made up of a series of overlapping visions, which often describe the same event using different language. If you attempt to interpret all of the book "literally", you will never get it correct.

    Many people attempt to ignore "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18, because it destroys their millennial viewpoint.

    Many attempt to ignore Matthew 25:31-46, for the same reason.

    In 2 Timothy 4:1 we find that Christ judges both the living and the dead at His appearing.




    .
     
  5. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    What is your millennial interpretation?

    Matthew 25:31-46 clearly and literally teaches there will be no 1000 year kingdom on this earth.

    Jesus returns in the final judgment, eternal kingdom.

    Verses 31-32 Jesus returns with the Holy angels, the nations are gathered before the throne for judgment.

    Verse 34 The eterrnal kingdom is presented to the righteous

    Verse 41 The wicked are judged to the eternal lake of fire.

    Verse 46 The righteous obtain "Eternal Life" and enter the "Eternal Kingdom" in verse 34

    Very simple, literally clear, when Jesus Christ returns, "Eternity Begins" :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2017
  6. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    I think it's far too simplistic to say "God wants us to understand so therefore we have to read scripture literally". The fact is, not everything in scripture is easy to understand.

    For starters, there is a ton of symbolism and secondly it was written in a different time with different customs and different figures of speech. Remember, the Bible was written by men, not by God, and those men did not write the book with an eye to making it easy to understand to 21st century English speaking people. They wrote it in a way that made sense to them, thousands of years ago, in a different language, in a different part of the world.

    So, no I don't agree that the Bible is supposed to be easy to understand, or "written to be understood by average humans". The average human I know, doesn't understand the first thing about the Bible.
     
  7. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    This is a denial of fundamental Christian doctrine.

    What does the Bible say abut itself? The most significant and absolute of these is in the recorded words of our Lord Jesus himself, when He said, “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.” (Matthew 5:17-18) To understand this, we need to know what the jot and the tittle were. These were the two smallest marks used in Hebrew writing. From this, we understand that our Lord was saying that even the tiniest detail of everything written in the Bible was both true and important.

    Again Jesus said, “Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you – Moses, in whom you trust. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?” (John 5:45-47) Here, our Lord made it very plain that a belief of what Moses said was critical to believing in himself.

    This last passage is particularly important in our day, because many people want to say they are Christians, but reject the creation account in the beginning of Genesis. But that account is both a part of “the law,” as Jesus referred to it, and is in one of the five books written by Moses. So both of these statements made by our Lord himself, make it very clear that an absolute belief in these things is a critical part of even being a Christian.

    Again, Jesus said “It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.” (Luke 4:4) So Jesus clearly stressed the written Bible as both absolutely accurate in all of its finest details, and critically import to both our beliefs and our lives.

    But there is more. For the Apostle Peter wrote that “no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.” (2 Peter 1:20-21) Then later he also wrote of the epistles of Paul, “as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.” (2 Peter 3:15-16)

    So now, in addition to the words of our Lord himself, we have the words of the one Apostle that many consider the most authoritative of them all, clearly stating of all prophecy in the Bible, that it “never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit,” and that the writings of Paul were also “Scriptures,” like those of the Old Testament. And he also clearly stated that people who “twist” these Scriptures do it “to their own destruction.”

    In this short summary, I have only covered the high points of what the Bible says about itself. But a computer search of the entire Bible showed the following wording to be found in the Bible, as rendered in the NKJV version:

    “Thus says the Lord” is found 420 times.
    “The Lord spoke” is found 138 times.
    “The Lord says” is found 10 times.
    “The word of the Lord” is found 262 times. And four of these times add the word “God” to the end, making it “The word of the Lord God.”
    “The words of the Lord” is found 19 times.
    “The word of God” is found 45 times.
    “The words of God” is found 6 times.
    “God spoke” is found 12 times.
    “God says” is found 6 times.
    “The Spirit says” is found 7 times.
    “The Spirit said” is found twice.
    And finally, “Says the Spirit,” “The word of the Holy One,” and “The words of the Holy One” are each found once.

    So “Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.” (Proverbs 30:5-6)

    For “I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.” (Revelation 22:18-19) We are thus severely warned against any and all attempts to change or modify anything that our God has told us.

    So in conclusion, we need to remember the exhortation Paul gave Timothy. “But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.” (2 Timothy 3:14-17)

    This is what the Bible says about itself.
     
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  8. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    "The bible was written by men, not God"?

    I read your post, and you associate the bible with mans wisdom in its creation.

    "They wrote it in a way that made sense to them"?

    Your teaching is far from orthodox christian belief, and would be considered heresy by many.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2017
  9. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Agree with you completely as you said.

    But a literal approach must include knowledge of allegory, metaphor, and idiom, because our Heavenly Father uses those tools a lot in His Word, and He does that to make things easier for us to understand, not more difficult.

    Jesus warned us about the "hireling" in John 10, one who preaches for money and will run when the wolves creep in and go after Christ's sheep. So those are not given understanding in God's Word, thus they make up doctrines, the leaven our Lord Jesus warned us about. That's one of the main reasons why there's so many conflicting doctrines out there.

    Another reason is because we are not all at the same level of learning. Only God through The Holy Spirit can open up His Word to us in understanding. If He has not given us to know something, we can make mistakes in interpretation.

    Understanding about Christ's future thousand years reign is dependent upon a lot of study in the OT prophets. Our Lord's Revelation is not a Book that can be just opened by itself and understood. Many of the symbolic references in Revelation are from the OT prophets.





     
  10. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Now ....... just where are you going to find those people who understand ? .....
    Where can you find average humans ? ..... (since most are dead in sin and trespasses, according to God's Word)
    Or,
    if you do find that place, those people,
    even if they do understand, what then ? Since Jesus says few will be saved ... how many will find the narrow road to life ?
    Seems to be a paradox, while all of God's Word is Truth, unchanging.
     
  11. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Well, that's correct: Yahweh's Word does say He Created all things simple, man came up with many devices.... (not good ones)

    Jesus IS God, right ?
    Remember what He Said? Why He Spoke in parables ? (so people would not understand - Jesus Himself, they would not understand)
     
  12. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    How do we know that someone is interpreting the Bible correctly?

    That interpretation must not produce conflict with other passages.

    If some passages must be ignored to make the interpretation work, then the interpretation cannot be correct.

    In some ways the Bible is like a car engine.
    All parts must work together and none of the parts can be left out.


    .
     
  13. dysert

    dysert Member

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    I agree that the literal interpretation is best.
    I agree that the Bible was God-breathed, and that man was simply involved as the conduit through which He spoke.

    The posts above (for the most part) substantiate these claims, so I'll not repeat them.

    To the OP: Good for you. Stick to your convictions.
     
  14. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    Let's put that to a test.


    Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


    Some interpretations claim there is no one left but saved saints at this point.


    Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

    Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

    Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

    These left remaining per Zechariah 14:16 can't be meaning saved saints who have put on immortality at the last trump. How can there even be any mortal survivors if the intepretation of Revelation 19:21 says only saved saints left at this point? How can this person be interpreting Revelation 19:21 correctly, in light of these verses in Zech 14?

    As to you, since you are the one who said the above that I have quoted you saying, does your interpretation of Revelation 19:21 allow for mortal survivors, or does it instead cause conflicts with the verses in Zech 14, thus your interpretation ignores these verses in Zech 14, where we would then know you are not interpreting something correctly? Or does what you said only apply to others, just not you?
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
  15. nonaeroterraqueous

    nonaeroterraqueous Impractical Rat

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    I was going to reply, but someone else said what I was going to say:

    The passage for this begins at Matthew 13:10, and continues:

    It's kind of a two-part explanation. On the one hand, the people already let themselves grow dull, but on the other hand, he actively works to confuse those who are already dull, to make them understand even less than they already do. He does this, as stated, by being deliberately cryptic.

    Looking over the eschatology forum almost daily, as I do, I think of this passage often, and it makes me feel a little depressed. Have a nice day.
     
  16. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Remnant NOT Remnant Saved.

    Revelation 19:20-21Expanded Bible (EXB)
    20 But the beast was captured and with him the false prophet who ·did the miracles [performed signs] ·for the beast [on his behalf; in his presence]. The false prophet had used these ·miracles [signs] to ·trick [deceive; lead astray] those who had the ·mark [brand; stamp] of the beast and worshiped his ·idol [image]. ·The false prophet and the beast [L The two] were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. 21 And ·their armies [L the rest] were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds ·ate the bodies until they were full [L were gorged/filled up with their flesh].

     
  17. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Only a little depressed ? For the FAMINE of the hearing of the Word of God ?
    (that God says He Sent Himself)

    Rather great sorrows for all men lost, each one.

    Yet as Jesus said "My Peace I Give , not as the world gives"
    and "I told you this ahead of time, so YOUR JOY MAY BE FULL"
    and "they (the believers immersed in Jesus' Name) WERE CONTINUALLY FULL of JOY, PEACE
    AND RIGHTEOUSNESS.......
     
  18. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    Zechariah chapter 14 is the eternal kingdom, those left of the nations are the saved righteous.

    Revelation 19:21 is the second advent, The Lords return to the bettle of armageddon, only the righteous will be left, the eternal state.
     
  19. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    I totally agree Zechariah chapter 14 is the eternal kingdom, What I don't agree with is that the survivors are the saved righteous. Why would the saved righteous be threatened with plagues if they refuse to come up to Jerusalem? And why would any of the saved righteous refuse to do that to begin with? And finally, if meaning the saved righteous, why would they not be living in the new Jerusalem instead, as opposed to living outside of it? Because clearly Jerusalem is meaning the new Jerusalem in that chapter after the time of going against it is in the past. So any saved righteous should be living in the city and not outside of it instead.
     
  20. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Just a few years ago I also believed there would be mortals living during the millennium.
    Why?
    Because that is what my preacher said and that is what my church taught.


    Then I started reading my Bible.

    I ran into serious problems at Matthew 25:31-46.
    People at my church tried to say it was only about rewards. Why? Because the passage destroyed their doctrine.


    Then I found 2 Timothy 4:1, which says Christ will judge both the living and the dead at His appearing.

    One of the breakthroughs for me came when a local Baptist preacher did a lesson on how the Book of Revelation is a series of overlapping visions, instead of a perfect chronological order.
    That allowed me to take more of the text at face value, while still understanding also that it is a book of symbols.


    Then I noticed that many had to ignore certain passages to make their doctrine work.
    We have "the nations" and "wrath" and "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18.
    I had never seen anybody really deal with this text. I now know why.
    It causes real problems for the premill doctrine.



    If I could get the premill doctrine to work, I would gladly accept it as the truth.
    So far, that has not been possible.


    I also have to admit I have a real problem seeing Christ officiating funeral services during a 1,000 year period where sin and death remain, after His Second Coming.

    Focusing narrowly on any Old Testament passage without looking at it through the eyes of the New Testament writers often produces confusion.



    I had to accept the following, because it is the only thing that I can get to work, when considering the whole of the text.



    .
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
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