Mike Huckabee: How can Obama support same-sex marriage and call himself a Christian?

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

Do you think we should take away religious freedoms from people who want to participate in religions you don't approve of? Or do you support the rights of people to choose their own religious beliefs, even if you disapprove of them?

No, I don't think we should take away religious freedoms from people who don't believe as I do. I do support their God-given free will, even if I don't approve of what they are doing. But let me make it clear that that doesn't change how I feel about trying to bring them to Christ. Nevertheless, I find it very difficult to truly convey what I'm really thinking and feeling writing online like this.

 

[Loudmouth]

No, I don't think we should take away religious freedoms from people who don't believe as I do. I do support their God-given free will, even if I don't approve of what they are doing. But let me make it clear that that doesn't change how I feel about trying to bring them to Christ. Nevertheless, I find it very difficult to truly convey what I'm really thinking and feeling writing online like this.

That was actually a very good post. No apologies needed.

I think I do understand what you are feeling, but please correct me if I get it wrong. You feel like you are being forced to accept homosexuality as moral or acceptable as part of christian theology. I can assure you, this is not the case. I support your right to disapprove of same sex marriages.

I think you said it perfectly. "I do support their God-given free will, even if I don't approve of what they are doing." That's exactly it. At times, supporting freedom means allowing people to do things that you disapprove of as long as it does not take away your rights to do the same. Supporting that freedom does not mean that you approve of what they do.

What same sex couples are asking for is equal protection under the law. That's it. They want the same legal protections that heterosexual couples have, such as transfer of assets, next of kin rights, insurance benefits, etc. No one is trying to use the force of law to change what christians will approve or disapprove of.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

That was actually a very good post. No apologies needed.

Thank you for your graciousness.

I think I do understand what you are feeling, but please correct me if I get it wrong. You feel like you are being forced to accept homosexuality as moral or acceptable as part of christian theology. I can assure you, this is not the case. I support your right to disapprove of same sex marriages.

But that is exactly what is happening today. I have read the stories of Christians being sued and persecuted, even arrested, for speaking out against homosexuality. I have also read the stories about how some people are trying to legally make the Bible out to be hate speech.

I think you said it perfectly. "I do support their God-given free will, even if I don't approve of what they are doing." That's exactly it. At times, supporting freedom means allowing people to do things that you disapprove of as long as it does not take away your rights to do the same. Supporting that freedom does not mean that you approve of what they do.

The tolerance war cry of the homosexual movement isn't very tolerate of Christians or of Christianity in general.

What same sex couples are asking for is equal protection under the law. That's it. They want the same legal protections that heterosexual couples have, such as transfer of assets, next of kin rights, insurance benefits, etc.

I cannot support or condone something I believe to be morally wrong, no matter what a man-made law declares otherwise.

No one is trying to use the force of law to change what Christians will approve or disapprove of.

This I do not believe. As I said, I have read stories that prove otherwise. What are your thoughts about that?

 

[Marius27]

T

But that is exactly what is happening today. I have read the stories of Christians being sued and persecuted, even arrested, for speaking out against homosexuality. I have also read the stories about how some people are trying to legally make the Bible out to be hate speech.

That has nothing to do with Christian theology. Those Christians are breaking the law by discriminating, and thus people have every right to sue them.

And even Thomas Jefferson basically considered the Bible a book of nonsense, which is why he created his own. There are certainly hateful, outdated concepts displayed in the Bible.

The tolerance war cry of the homosexual movement isn't very tolerate of Christians or of Christianity in general.

Many gays are Christian. The issue is with certain types/subsets of Christians/Christianity. Generally the Fundamentalist/Evangelical ones who demonize gay people.

 

[Loudmouth]

But that is exactly what is happening today. I have read the stories of Christians being sued and persecuted, even arrested, for speaking out against homosexuality. I have also read the stories about how some people are trying to legally make the Bible out to be hate speech.

That's what they are. Stories.

No one is trying to pass a law forcing christians to accept homosexuality as a part of christian theology. The only law suits I have seen are due to discrimination against homosexuals by businesses which is a violation of the law in some states.

The tolerance war cry of the homosexual movement isn't very tolerate of Christians or of Christianity in general.

Again, you don't have to approve of someone's beliefs, only recognize that they have the right to have those beliefs. That goes for everyone. You have the right to say that homosexuality goes against your views of morality, and other people have the right to say that christian theology goes against their views of morality. Free speech is a two way street.

I cannot support or condone something I believe to be morally wrong, no matter what a man-made law declares otherwise.

This seems to run counter to your previous statement.

"No, I don't think we should take away religious freedoms from people who don't believe as I do. "

Can you help me understand this disconnect?

This I do not believe. As I said, I have read stories that prove otherwise. What are your thoughts about that?

I think you are misreading the stories, or they aren't true.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

I'm going to have to call it a night here. All of this discussion and trying to figure out
how to answer the questions asked of me is making my brain hurt. I need a break.

 

[Glass*Soul]

I don't support or condone anyone participating in immoral behavior. As a Christian, I don't approve and can't approve.

I was going to ask you about there being a difference between approving of someone worshiping other than you do yourself and approving of their governmental right to worship in that manner, but then I saw this...

No, I don't think we should take away religious freedoms from people who don't believe as I do. I do support their God-given free will, even if I don't approve of what they are doing. But let me make it clear that that doesn't change how I feel about trying to bring them to Christ. Nevertheless, I find it very difficult to truly convey what I'm really thinking and feeling writing online like this.

That seems to answer my question.

There is an appreciation among American Christians, perhaps not so sharp these days as that of our founding fathers', that no small number of our ancestors came to America because they were being persecuted in their homelands by those who worshiped the same God they did. Loving one's enemies has always been more difficult than it appears on the face of it. What if we feel our enemies are wrong, and dangerously so? Is all fair in love then? Can we sanction them, hound them, persecute them, even execute them and term that as loving our enemies? May we maneuver ourselves into the ruling seat and control their acts of conscience from there, out of love of course? On how small a point of doctrine? (And is any point too small?)

Our founding fathers decided not. We will not sanction them. We will not even set ourselves in the seat of tolerating them as if we were those of the ruling sect.

I hope you have had a good night's rest.

 

[Armoured]

I have read the stories of Christians being sued and persecuted, even arrested, for speaking out against homosexuality.

I doubt it. Cite one?

 

[TLK Valentine]

I doubt it. Cite one?

Most likely, a Christian was fined and/or arrested for violating some local statute (noise pollution, marching w/o a permit, disorderly conduct, etc...) while protesting homosexuality.

In other words, they were fined/arrested for doing something that just about anyone else would've gotten fined/arrested for -- the fact that they were preaching at the time did not grant them special privileges, although they think it should have.

 

[Armoured]

Most likely, a Christian was fined and/or arrested for violating some local statute (noise pollution, marching w/o a permit, disorderly conduct, etc...) while protesting homosexuality.

In other words, they were fined/arrested for doing something that just about anyone else would've gotten fined/arrested for -- the fact that they were preaching at the time did not grant them special privileges, although they think it should have.

Oh sure, there's plenty of cases like that, but the claim was that Christians were being arrested and sued "for speaking out against homosexuality", and while this is an oft made claim by the siege mindset Christians, it invariably turns out to be a misrepresentation of the facts of the case. As always, I stand to be corrected, so if the poster I responded to actually does know of such a case, I'd be interested to hear of it. But going off past experience, I doubt he does.

 

[Queller]

But that is exactly what is happening today. I have read the stories of Christians being sued and persecuted, even arrested, for speaking out against homosexuality.

Speaking out is one thing and should be protected speech.

Actively breaking the law and discriminating against someone is something else in entirely.

I have also read the stories about how some people are trying to legally make the Bible out to be hate speech.

Well, that's just dumb. I expect that whoever is trying that will fail.

The tolerance war cry of the homosexual movement isn't very tolerate of Christians or of Christianity in general.

The problem is that too many Christians use the Bible as a club to try to beat other people into following Christianity's rules.

I cannot support or condone something I believe to be morally wrong, no matter what a man-made law declares otherwise.

How is anyone asking YOU to support anything you believe to be morally wrong?

This I do not believe. As I said, I have read stories that prove otherwise. What are your thoughts about that?

Can you give an example of a law that is trying to "change what Christians will approve or disapprove of"?

 

[Water Cross]

I doubt it. Cite one?

That's bold. Calling someone a liar and then daring them to prove you're not wrong.

 

[Water Cross]

I have read the stories of Christians being sued and persecuted, even arrested, for speaking out against homosexuality.

A word of advice. Don't respond to those here who are out to bait you so as to report you. There are many gay atheists on this site that live for that.

Christians arrested for preaching against homosexuality

I have also read the stories about how some people are trying to legally make the Bible out to be hate speech.

The infamous, Southern Poverty Law Center relegates certain Christian organizations to the status of hate groups due to their supporting scriptures that condemn homosexuality as an immoral sin.

I don't doubt there is something on the SPLC website that makes reference to the Bible being hate speech as well. If SPLC arrives at the conclusion Christian Bible based groups that stand behind scripture are hate groups, SPLC can only uphold that idea by arguing that the Bible that inspires those groups then qualifies as hate speech.

The tolerance war cry of the homosexual movement isn't very tolerate of Christians or of Christianity in general.

No, they aren't. Yet they call for tolerance of their community. Interesting isn't it? They aren't even tolerant of those in their own community who do not walk in lockstep with the general consensus.

I cannot support or condone something I believe to be morally wrong, no matter what a man-made law declares otherwise.

That is perfectly correct according to scripture. All Christians are called on to uphold God's law over that of man's when man's commands an abdication of morality and righteousness.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

A word of advice. Don't respond to those here who are out to bait you so as to report you. There are many gay atheists on this site that live for that.

Christians arrested for preaching against homosexuality

I wasn't going to, in the first place. There's no need to argue with them anyway. I know that according to Scripture, they are spiritually blind and cannot understand the things of God and their minds are enmity against God. So, it's moot to argue with them about spiritual things. I don't think arguing with them over such things is the answer and I don't think it will help the situation. I won't argue with those who profess Christ either. We are instructed in Scripture not to be argumentative or quarrelsome with other people, especially toward other believers.

The infamous, Southern Poverty Law Center relegates certain Christian organizations to the status of hate groups due to their supporting scriptures that condemn homosexuality as an immoral sin.

I don't doubt there is something on the SPLC website that makes reference to the Bible being hate speech as well. If SPLC arrives at the conclusion Christian Bible based groups that stand behind scripture are hate groups, SPLC can only uphold that idea by arguing that the Bible that inspires those groups then qualifies as hate speech.

Thank you for the resources. I appreciate it.

No, they aren't. Yet they call for tolerance of their community. Interesting isn't it? They aren't even tolerant of those in their own community who do not walk in lockstep with the general consensus.

That is true. So much for tolerance.

That is perfectly correct according to scripture. All Christians are called on to uphold God's law over that of man's when man's commands an abdication of morality and righteousness.

Amen. I can't personally change the man-laws that condone homosexuality, abortion and inappropriate contentography (or any other sin that God condemns) but that doesn't mean I have to support such laws or believe them to be right and acceptable. Man's law does not trump God's Law.

 

[gamewell45]

I used to admire Huck for his unpretentious, working-man quality. Now he's just irritating.

He reminds me of Televangelist Pat Robertson.

 

[Loudmouth]

I wasn't going to, in the first place. There's no need to argue with them anyway. I know that according to Scripture, they are spiritually blind and cannot understand the things of God and their minds are enmity against God. So, it's moot to argue with them about spiritual things. I don't think arguing with them over such things is the answer and I don't think it will help the situation. I won't argue with those who profess Christ either. We are instructed in Scripture not to be argumentative or quarrelsome with other people, especially toward other believers.

I am as blind to your beliefs as you are blind to the commands of the Hindu gods.

That is true. So much for tolerance.

You do understand that gays have been attacked and killed for being gay, correct? There are many hate groups that have targetted gays, and some of them just happen to be christians who have lost their way. You are confusing christians being labelled as hate groups for being christians, and hate groups being labelled as hate groups and just happening to also be christian.

To use an analogy, if the police arrest a man while he is trying to rob a bank and you find out that the man is christian, are you going to claim that police are calling christians bank robbers?

Amen. I can't personally change the man-laws that condone homosexuality, abortion and inappropriate contentography (or any other sin that God condemns) but that doesn't mean I have to support such laws or believe them to be right and acceptable. Man's law does not trump God's Law.

Religious beliefs do not trump human rights.

 

[yusufleeevans]

What Christians here who argree with Huckabee, also support the war in Afghanistan and supported the war in Iraq?

 

[Loudmouth]

A word of advice. Don't respond to those here who are out to bait you so as to report you. There are many gay atheists on this site that live for that.

Christians arrested for preaching against homosexuality

How many of those arrests occurred on American soil?

The infamous, Southern Poverty Law Center relegates certain Christian organizations to the status of hate groups due to their supporting scriptures that condemn homosexuality as an immoral sin.

They "support" those scriptures by spreading hate and threatening violence against homosexuals. That is why they are considered hate groups.

Is there a reason that we should be tolerant of people who threaten violence against people that never harmed them?

 

[TLK Valentine]

That's bold. Calling someone a liar and then daring them to prove you're not wrong.

Bold but in this case, effective.

 

[SepiaAndDust]

Man's law does not trump God's Law.

Sure it does.

As you said earlier (I think it was you), US law allows homosexuals, inappropriate contentography, and abortion to exist, and there's nothing you can lawfully do to stop or get rid of any of those things, despite what you feel God's law says.

I'd call that trumped.