Melania Trump's prayer was a shot in the culture war.

[The Barbarian]

It would be truly wonderful if the Trumps have had a change of heart, and have turned their backs on adultery (which Donald asserts is not a sin), inappropriate contentography, and business fraud.

So before we get cynical about his election-year conversion, let's admit that it is possible that the responsibilities of the office sobered him up and turned him and his familty toward God.

I wouldn't risk any money on it, however.

 

[Kevin Ambrose]

The amount of judgement cast over the Lord's Prayer is the only thing sobering I see in this equation.

 

[archer75]

It is very ridiculous to complain about her doing this. Anyone who does so looks pretty foolish.

 

[Kevin Ambrose]

It is very ridiculous to complain about her doing this. Anyone who does so looks pretty foolish.

I think it goes a long way to highlight:

1) That the Trump's can do nothing right in the eyes of some people.

and

2) That a lot of that same base hates Jesus Christ and His message.

Mix the two together and it's a sad display.

 

[John 1720]

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.

Yes, in the days Jesus walked the earth, the nation was hungering for God and for deliverance. Public prayer would have been popular but the Pharisee's motive for public prayer was to be seen by others. That might be seen as politically astute in a nation where the populous respects God. However, that is not the context within America today because ,when you pray in public, you are, for the most part, either castigated or ridiculed - just as we see here in this example of the First Lady humbly praying the prayer that the Lord taught us. If we truly want to be a great nation we cannot do so without God. May the Lord richly bless her for standing up and submitting herself to mockery for calling upon God, our Father, with the prayer Jesus taught us.

I think the true context for what we are seeing here is Matthew 5:10

• “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake.

How I long for us once again to be one nation under God with liberty and justice for all.

Online Speech Bank: Benjamin Franklin's Prayer Speech at the Constitutional Convention of 1787

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Man and citizens. The mere Politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity...
Let it simply be asked where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice?"
- Sep. 19, 1796, "Farewell Address," Philadelphia's American Daily Advisor

"While just government protects all in their religious rights, true religion affords to government its surest support."
Oct. 1789, Letter to the Synod of the Reformed Dutch Church of North America

"We have no government armed in power capable of contending in human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other."
1798, Address to the militia of Massachusetts

Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet if God wills that it continues... until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid another drawn with the sword... so still it must be said that the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.
With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow and for his orphans, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and a lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.
The 2nd Inaugural address, March 4, 1865

To preserve our blessed land we must look to God... It is time to realize that we need God more than He needs us... We also have His promise that we could take to heart with regard to our country, that "If my people, which are called by my name shall humble themselves, and pray and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."
Let us, young and old, join together, as did the First Continental Congress, in the first step, in humble heartfelt prayer. Let us do so for the love of God and His great goodness, in search of His guidance and the grace of repentance, in seeking His blessings, His peace, and the resting of His kind and holy hands on ourselves, our nation, our friends in the defense of freedom, and all mankind, now and always.
The time has come to turn to God and reassert our trust in Him for the healing of America... Our country is in need of and ready for a spiritual renewal. Today, we utter no prayer more fervently than the ancient prayer for peace on Earth.
If I had a prayer for you today, among those that have all been uttered, it is that one we're so familiar with: "The Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord make His face to shine upon you and be gracious unto you; the Lord lift up His countenance upon you and give you peace...." And God bless you all.
to the American people, February 6, 1986

 

[archer75]

I think it goes a long way to highlight:

1) That the Trump's can do nothing right in the eyes of some people.

and

2) That a lot of that same base hates Jesus Christ and His message.

Mix the two together and it's a sad display.

I don't know that I'm willing to say I've seen that "normal" lefties, Christian or not, were seriously upset by or even worried about this at all. So I personally haven't seen evidence for your #2 (doesn't mean you're wrong). Certainly #1, yes.

And it's foolish. If there's stuff worth protesting...handle that. The Lord's Prayer? Come on, folks.

 

[Kevin Ambrose]

Yes, in the days Jesus walked the earth, the nation was hungering for God and for deliverance. Public prayer would have been popular but the Pharisee's motive for public prayer was to be seen by others. It is seen as politically astute in a nation that respects God. However, that is not the context within America today because ,when you pray in public, you are, for the most part, either castigated or ridiculed - just as we see here in this example of the First Lady humbly praying the prayer that the Lord taught us. If we truly want to be a great nation we cannot do so without God. May the Lord richly bless her for standing up and submitting herself to mockery for calling upon God, our Father, with the prayer Jesus taught us.

I think the true context for what we are seeing here is Matthew 5:10

• “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake.

How I long for us once again to be one nation under God with liberty and justice for all.
Online Speech Bank: Benjamin Franklin's Prayer Speech at the Constitutional Convention of 1787
[QUOTES="Washington"]
"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Man and citizens. The mere Politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity...
Let it simply be asked where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice?"
- Sep. 19, 1796, "Farewell Address," Philadelphia's American Daily Advisor

"While just government protects all in their religious rights, true religion affords to government its surest support."
Oct. 1789, Letter to the Synod of the Reformed Dutch Church of North America

[/QUOTE]


This is an excellent post. Thank you, John.

 

[The Barbarian]

The amount of judgement cast over the Lord's Prayer is the only thing sobering I see in this equation.

If that were so, the Lord's Prayer would be in tatters. Corrupt politicians have always used religion as a lever. Trump is remarkable only because his personal life has been so anti-Christian that it's jarring to hear him suddenly getting religion.

But so far, the prayer still stands, good as ever.

[Staff edit].

And yes, it's always possible that Trump had an epiphany that turned him around. But I notice that after Paul had his, on the way to Damascus, he changed his behaviour.

 

[Albion]

It is a shame that every step in the direction of decency or civility has to immediately be scorned by someone saying it's self-serving. This is what we seem to have come to now in this country. Yet, the most offensive vulgarity and hate speech that's directed at our country, its government, or its people is defended by the same people, saying that that's free speech or the people's right to assemble, etc. They even argue that a prayer at a non-governmental event is unConstitutional when the Constitution is the last thing they want to preserve of our heritage.

 

[Kevin Ambrose]

Matthew 10:34

There is a war waging. The only thing "shameful" here is the attempt to keep God separate from American life.

 

[The Barbarian]

Matthew 10:34

There is a war waging.

If you want to be a Christian, the war is against powers and principalities, not our fellow man.

Ephesians 6:12 For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places.

[Staff edit].

The only thing "shameful" here is the attempt to keep God separate from American life.

The objection is in trying to put God into government. That is an unalloyed evil, as history has repeatedly demonstrated.

This is why the founders thought that religion was essential to a civilised society, while being strongly opposed to government having any role in religion at all.

 

[The Barbarian]

[Staff edit].

Matthew 7:16 By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

What sort of Christian lies the way Trump has repeatedly lied? What sort of Christian brags about getting away with sexual assault? What sort of Christian lures trusting people into fraudulent schemes to get their money? If Trump has had a sudden conversion, he's shown no sign of it.

Did Jesus win people over by praying at them, or did He do so, by his behavior when he was with them? What made Christianity expand rapidly thoughout the Roman Empire, in spite of repeated horrific persecutions?

It wasn't the public prayers that Jesus cautioned us against doing. It was what we did as Christians, the way we loved each other, and prayed for those persecuting us. Not by declaring war on them.

Lay down the "cultural war" and bring the peace of God that passes all understanding to our enemies. It's what He told us to do.

And I think He is right. How about you?

 

[FireDragon76]

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.

Good one.

 

[Kevin Ambrose]

Matthew 7:16 By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

What sort of Christian lies the way Trump has repeatedly lied? What sort of Christian brags about getting away with sexual assault? What sort of Christian lures trusting people into fraudulent schemes to get their money? If Trump has had a sudden conversion, he's shown no sign of it.

Did Jesus win people over by praying at them, or did He do so, by his behavior when he was with them? What made Christianity expand rapidly thoughout the Roman Empire, in spite of repeated horrific persecutions?

It wasn't the public prayers that Jesus cautioned us against doing. It was what we did as Christians, the way we loved each other, and prayed for those persecuting us. Not by declaring war on them.

Lay down the "cultural war" and bring the peace of God that passes all understanding to our enemies. It's what He told us to do.

And I think He is right. How about you?

Who are you to judge Donald Trump today? He himself has said that this whole process has changed him. Who are you to say that such is insincere? The quotes on adultery you have mentioned were from 1990.

You seem to believe that it's best for Christianity to remain separate from public life. I do not agree with this. It gives the Devil and his servants a lot of room to work against innocent people. This is a war. And it is rooted in culture. I pray for our enemies. I just will not allow them to ruin our nation.

Beyond that we will have to agree to disagree or we're going to continue to go in circles and that serves no one.

 

[FireDragon76]

Who are you to judge Donald Trump today? He himself has said that this whole process has changed him. Who are you to say that such is insincere? The quotes on adultery you have mentioned were from 1990.

You seem to believe that it's best for Christianity to remain separate from public life. I do not agree with this.

I believe in separation of the institutions of government and church, and I acknowledge the functional interaction of religion and public life. But it's not hard to see Trump as pandering to conservative Christians. Which is quite ironic as he (sporadically) attends an Episcopalian church, a denomination that most conservative Christians wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole.

 

[FireDragon76]

[Staff edit].

It's ironic because earlier today the pastor was talking about this at Bible study.

I really do hope Trump has repented. But I'd like to see something more substantive out of him than prayer to cheering fans.

 

[Kevin Ambrose]

It's ironic because earlier today the pastor was talking about this at Bible study.

I really do hope Trump has repented. But I'd like to see something more substantive out of him than prayer to cheering fans.

What specifically would you like to see?

 

[FireDragon76]

What specifically would you like to see?

Less lying and manipulation of facts, for starters?

 

[Kevin Ambrose]

Less lying and manipulation of facts, for starters?

I want to ask what he's lied about but I really don't want to have to debunk Politifact's list again. Maybe I'll just write about that next.

 

[FireDragon76]

I want to ask what he's lied about but I really don't want to have to debunk Politifact's list again. Maybe I'll just write about that next.

Bowling Greene, the attack in Sweden (which was actually carried out by white nationalists), etc. He manipulates facts without alot of regard for the truth. I realize public accountability is a new thing for Trump, but it is his duty as the President to have to answer for his mistakes and to seek to do better. Instead, he minimizes them or blames a conspiracy of the media. This is a sign of not being truly sincere, and it's not Christian behavior.