Melania Trump's prayer was a shot in the culture war.

Kevin Ambrose

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Abraxos

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Let us pray. Three simple, beautiful words. This was more than just a call to honor our Creator. [Staff edit].

And the Left is not happy: Read more.
I thought she was very beautiful when she spoke the Lord's prayer, never took much thought of her before. I was very proud of her, and how this US presidency acknowledges America's Christian values and origins.

[Staff edit].
 
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The Barbarian

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I thought she was very beautiful when she spoke the Lord's prayer, never took much thought of her before. I was very proud of her, and how this US presidency acknowledges America's Christian values and origins.

As you might know, the founders wrote that the United States was not in any way founded on Christianity.

And as you just learned, Christian values regarding prayer ...

Matthew 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.


6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.


7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.


8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.


9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.


10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.


11 Give us this day our daily bread.


12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.


13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.


14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:


15 But if ye forgive not men, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.



[Staff edit].
 
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Shiloh Raven

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As you might know, the founders wrote that the United States was not in any way founded on Christianity.

If I may say so and since you already mentioned it, I think it is perplexing that anyone who knows and is aware of the actual real history of this country can believe that America has Christian origins and was founded on Christian principles.

[Staff edit].
 
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The Barbarian

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If I may say so and since you already mentioned it, I think it is perplexing that anyone who knows the actual real history of this country can believe that it has Christian origins and was founded on Christian values.

Most of the founders were Christian and thought that a religious people were necessary for a civilized nation. But they wanted no part of governmental involvement in religion, citing the horrors that had gone on in Europe as a result of that.

And they acknowledged that freedom of religion extended to Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and others equally.
 
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Shiloh Raven

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Most of the founders were Christian and thought that a religious people were necessary for a civilized nation. But they wanted no part of governmental involvement in religion, citing the horrors that had gone on in Europe as a result of that.

With all due respect, considering how people of color were treated at that time and for century or more afterward, I would not call that a civilized society. But I suppose that is a different subject for a different thread other than this one.

And they acknowledged that freedom of religion extended to Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and others equally.

That is not entirely true. Native Americans, Eskimos, Aleuts and Native Hawaiians were denied religious freedom until the American Indian Religious Freedom Act of 1978. That is 202 years after America was founded and less than 40 years ago.
 
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Abraxos

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As you might know, the founders wrote that the United States was not in any way founded on Christianity.

And as you just learned, Christian values regarding prayer ...

Matthew 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.


6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.


7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.


8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.


9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.


10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.


11 Give us this day our daily bread.


12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.


13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.


14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:


15 But if ye forgive not men, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Yeah nah. It isn't as if she constantly does prayers in front of the t.v., I don't see any hypocrisy on her part, nor would I even judge her as a hypocrite. Seems silly to do so, and rather petty to do so.

And I'm going to go ahead and say that America is most certainly a Christian nation and was founded on Christian values as seen in their Constitution.
 
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The Barbarian

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[Staff edit].

And I'm going to go ahead and say that America is most certainly a Christian nation and was founded on Christian values

Let's see what the Founders of America had to say about that:

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen (Muslims); and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan (Mohammedan) nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
Article 11; Treaty with Tripoli
(I put the relevant part in red for you)

This treaty was negotiated under George Washington, signed under President John Adams, and ratified by a Senate composed of the soldiers and statesmen of the Revolution. As you see, they disagree with you. They didn't just understand the intent of the founders; they were the founders.

as seen in their Constitution.

In which article of the Constitution is the United States established as a Christian nation?

That's not a rhetorical question. I'll be expecting an answer.
 
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AndrewMicheals

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More shots fired in the culture war!: WATCH: Left-Wing Attendees Heckle Opening Prayer, Disrupt Pledge of Allegiance at Louisiana Town Hall

I'll write about this later. We're still caught up in the "bind Trump" circus.

Which reminds me: ChristianNationalism.com is looking for writers. PM if you're interested.
So now the paid agitators are being bused around the deep South, eh? The bible belt/Catholic presence in that part of the South, no way man they'd heckle prayer. The South is all Republican.
 
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Shiloh Raven

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And I'm going to go ahead and say that America is most certainly a Christian nation and was founded on Christian values as seen in their Constitution.

Would you please explain how this belief coincides with the First Amendment of the United States Constitution?

First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
 
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zara<3

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Judging Melania on her past is not something that should factor because wasn't about her. It was about the people. Great leaders lead by example. This is all I see them doing. Showing the way. Saying that there is a place for God in America going forward. Which to me is a shot in the war. So many would have it go the other way.

None of us are worthy of God. We do what we can to steer the ship in the right direction.
 
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Abraxos

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Let's see what the Founders of America had to say about that:

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen (Muslims); and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan (Mohammedan) nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
Article 11; Treaty with Tripoli
(I put the relevant part in red for you)

This treaty was negotiated under George Washington, signed under President John Adams, and ratified by a Senate composed of the soldiers and statesmen of the Revolution. As you see, they disagree with you. They didn't just understand the intent of the founders; they were the founders.
This is the treaty with Muslim nations which secularists deliberately put out of context, and here you refute yourself. "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion..." but if you continue, "as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen (Muslims);"

Basically it's saying America is not Europe, it's not Spain, or Portugal, or Italy. The treaty emphasises that America doesn't hate them because they're Muslims, it was saying America is not that kind of Christian nation. It doesn't say America is not a Christian nation, it says America is not a Christian nation that has an inherent hostility toward Muslims.

Context is always important, and just to add -- I think the American educational system has done itself a huge disservice to a lack of teaching their own history accurately. Very few Americans know anything about the war America had with the Muslim nations, much less what it was about. The Treaty of Tripoli was just one of the many treaties in which each country recognized the religion of the other, and in which America invoked rhetoric designed to prevent a “Holy War” between Christians and Muslims.
 
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The Barbarian

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This is the treaty with Muslim nations which secularists deliberately put out of context, and here you refute yourself.

Well, let's take a look...

"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen (Muslims);"

So it says that government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion. And therefore, it has no character of enmity against Islam. Indeed that's what Jefferson said earlier:

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.
Thomas Jefferson on the Virgina Statutes from which the Bill of Rights was taken

Basically it's saying America is not Europe, it's not Spain, or Portugal, or Italy.

Nope. Nothing at all about that. It emphasizes that since the United States is "not in any sense founded on the Christian religion", it has no hostility against Muslims.

The treaty emphasises that America doesn't hate them because they're Muslims, it was saying America is not that kind of Christian nation.

No. It says that the United States is in no sense found on Christianity. Not in any sense.

At the Constitutional Convention, Benjamin Franklin moved for a daily prayer, but the motion did not pass. So the men who founded our nation didn't think it worth doing.

We do them great injustice if we try to transmogrify them into religious zealots. They clearly wanted no part of the sort of establishment of religion they saw in Europe.

No point in trying to dance around it. Just learn from it and go on.
 
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Abraxos

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Well, let's take a look...

"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen (Muslims);"

So it says that government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion. And therefore, it has no character of enmity against Islam. Indeed that's what Jefferson said earlier:

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.
Thomas Jefferson on the Virgina Statutes from which the Bill of Rights was taken



Nope. Nothing at all about that. It emphasizes that since the United States is "not in any sense founded on the Christian religion", it has no hostility against Muslims.



No. It says that the United States is in no sense found on Christianity. Not in any sense.

At the Constitutional Convention, Benjamin Franklin moved for a daily prayer, but the motion did not pass. So the men who founded our nation didn't think it worth doing.

We do them great injustice if we try to transmogrify them into religious zealots. They clearly wanted no part of the sort of establishment of religion they saw in Europe.

No point in trying to dance around it. Just learn from it and go on.
The critical mistake here is assuming that this is about America as a nation. Even if the treaty of Tripoli was nothing more than what critics cite -- i.e. “The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion” -- this article only refers to the federal government, doesn't mean that the American social or political network was not founded with Christian principles in mind for her peoples.

The main point that was portrayed at that time was that America was not a Christian theocracy, or a state where the church had political power as her European and Muslim counterparts. The Muslim countries (Tunis, Morocco, Algiers, Tripoli, and Turkey) declared war against what they deemed the five “Christian” nations (England, France, Spain, Denmark, and the United States), and America was making a distinction.

And for the record: America's supreme court in 1891 ruled the decision that America is a Christian nation.
"These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation."
 
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The Barbarian

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"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen (Muslims);"


The critical mistake here is assuming that this is about America as a nation.

America was mostly populated by Christians, although the founders were more often Deists than the general population. But as you learned, the Founders intended the government to be entirely apart from religion.

For a Christian, however, Jesus' words in the Sermon on the Mount are compelling.

Matthew 6:5 And when ye pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites, that love to stand and pray in the synagogues and corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men: Amen I say to you, they have received their reward.

And for the record: America's supreme court in 1891 ruled the decision that America is a Christian nation.

Wrong. The statement to which you are referring was actually pasted together from two separate statements in dicta; the stuff that is not part of the actual court decision, sometimes referred to as the "part where you can stop listening." It has no legal force whatever.

The rationale in Holy Trinity contains several different parts. First the court discusses how it came up with the idea that the purpose of the Act was to slow down or stop the importation of cheap, unskilled manual laborers which might compete with American unskilled laborers for jobs. The Court says the title of the Act implies its meaning, that only the importation of "laborers" will be restricted. The Court then turns to the legislative history, debates, and comments of the Congressmen involved in drafting the Act to conclude that the Act was designed to regulate the domestic unskilled, labor market.

Justice Brewer then writes in the opinion that "beyond all these matters no purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national, because this is a religious people." Several pages later, after presenting a religious history of America, he follows up with the statement: "These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation." Barton splices together these two quotes and cites Holy Trinity as establishing America as a Christian Nation.

To understand whether this last part of the Court's rationale establishes anything at all, it is necessary to first understand that an opinion written by the Supreme Court contains several different parts. The holding of the case establishes the rule of law as decided on by the court and as it relates specifically to the facts of the case. The rationale of the case contains the different reasons why the Court decided a case the way that it did. Contained within these reasons can be comments by the Court which do not have any bearing on the specific rule of law and are not binding on future cases with similar facts. These non-essential comments are called dictum, and unlike the holding of the case, dictum carries no precedential value. The essential comments, or the holding, becomes precedent which can then be applied to subsequent cases with similar facts.
America a Christian Nation?


The major issue with this misuse of the Lord's prayer, is that Jesus told us, in the same sermon he gave us that prayer, not to be hypcrites about it; He certainly didn't want His prayer, a call to repentance and forgiveness, to be twisted into a "declaration of war."

Not surprising that this would be something Trump (who has said that adultery is not a sin) dreams up.
 
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[Staff edit].

I just don't see how a prayer can be taken as a "shot in a war", although Christians are at war against what is mentioned in Ephesians 6:12-- "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places."

Other than this, I don't see what war a prayer could be a shot in.
 
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My point is that she's doing this as a sop to the religious right.

In the same way bikini babes get draped across the bonnet of ferraris so teenage boys and midlife crisis guys want them.

Put a pretty woman on screen to sell the product.

Mr Trump is s savvy businessman. Put a pretty face with a product is just good business.

So wrong to judge her heart you don't really know her none of us do. So sad to see people put others down about praying
 
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