Matthew 24:40-41 has me questioning my beliefs

[random person]

that is not describing the Zionists that are there now, it is referring to the worldwide Church (the True Israel) those that are in the land now are considered robbers and transgressors. ' when the transgressors have come full circle, a king will arise, insolent and skilled in intrigue'. and also 'the robbers among your people will lift themselves up in order to fulfill the vision, but they will fall'.

Read Isaiah 65, Deuteronomy 32:15-43, Daniel 12:1-7, Isaiah 61:1-2, and Isaiah 63:1-6.

This is the end of the Jewish age which occurred at the destruction of the Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

The Resurrection is to coincide with the destruction of the Jerusalem according to Daniel 12:1-7.

1“At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. (Israel) But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (The Resurrection) 3And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above;a and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. 4But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. (Please note it says the time of the end NOT the end of time) Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

5Then I, Daniel, looked, and behold, two others stood, one on this bank of the stream and one on that bank of the stream. 6And someone said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream, “How long shall it be till the END of these WONDERS?” 7And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream; he raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, (3.5 years) and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end (Israel) ALL these THINGS would be FINISHED.

Daniel 12:1-7

The Resurrection would a contemporary event when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end. The Resurrection would occur at the time of the destruction of Israel.

 

[random person]

The old covenant is obsoleted and passed away replaced by the NC. And we still have not experienced the resurrection, only the first fruits which is Christ.
Hebrews 8:13
In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Hebrews 9:15
And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

So true, I am in complete agreement but read Daniel 12:1-7 and it states the resurrection occurs simultaneously at the time of the destruction of the Old Covenant and Biblical Israel.

 

[sdowney717]

So true, I am in complete agreement but read Daniel 12:1-7 and it states the resurrection occurs simultaneously at the time of the destruction of the Old Covenant and Biblical Israel.

When I read this, It is not in linear sequence eventwise.
Split this into 2 parts, a first part from verse 1 to 3, summarizing this and v3 is the end, finished, done.

Second part just more information contained as a subset to the first part.
The 3 1/2 years is describing within in more detail that which is contained within verse 1 - 3 which is so very broad.
The 3 1/2 years is something done, accomplished before the end described in v3, the forever and ever.


1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Finisimo, the end.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.

6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

 

[random person]

When I read this, It is not in linear sequence eventwise.
Split this into 2 parts, a first part from verse 1 to 3, summarizing this and v3 is the end, finished, done.

Second part just more information contained as a subset to the first part.
The 3 1/2 years is describing within in more detail that which is contained within verse 1 - 3 which is so very broad.
The 3 1/2 years is something done, accomplished before the end described in v3, the forever and ever.


1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Finisimo, the end.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.

6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the END of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, ALL these THINGS shall be FINISHED.

Look at the parts that I am highlighted in red above. It is speaking of the whole passage or prophecy as a whole - together. Otherwise all the angels are discussing is the portion I highlighted in green above. WHAT????! WONDERS????!

Couple Daniel 12:7 with:

Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away UNTIL ALL these THINGS have HAPPENED.

Matthew 24:34

For these be the days of vengeance, that ALL THINGS which are WRITTEN MAY be FULFILLED.

Luke 21:22

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED.

Luke 21:32

 

[Hallstone]

Read Isaiah 65, Deuteronomy 32:15-43, Daniel 12:1-7, Isaiah 61:1-2, and Isaiah 63:1-6.

This is the end of the Jewish age which occurred at the destruction of the Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

The Resurrection is to coincide with the destruction of the Jerusalem according to Daniel 12:1-7.

1“At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. (Israel) But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (The Resurrection) 3And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above;a and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. 4But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. (Please note it says the time of the end NOT the end of time) Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

5Then I, Daniel, looked, and behold, two others stood, one on this bank of the stream and one on that bank of the stream. 6And someone said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream, “How long shall it be till the END of these WONDERS?” 7And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream; he raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, (3.5 years) and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end (Israel) ALL these THINGS would be FINISHED.

Daniel 12:1-7

The Resurrection would a contemporary event when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end. The Resurrection would occur at the time of the destruction of Israel.

Anyone who rejects Jesus Christ is not a Jew, this is foundational teaching in the NT, there house was left desolate by the Christ they rejected, Judaism is and was completed in Christ, there are not two dispensations running parallel, the remnant that was before Christ and the remnant after Christ is Israel, All Israel, all together in the same Tree, there are not two Trees, only one Tree with those broken off and those grafted in, one Tree. According to the Biblical definition of a Jew, there are very very few Jews in present day Israel because only true disciples of Christ are true Jews. The Book that is referred to is the Book of life that has all of the saints recorded in it(all those who will inherit life). it is a separate Book from the Bible.

 

[random person]

Anyone who rejects Jesus Christ is not a Jew, this is foundational teaching in the NT, there house was left desolate by the Christ they rejected, Judaism is and was completed in Christ, there are not two dispensations running parallel, the remnant that was before Christ and the remnant after Christ is Israel, All Israel, all together in the same Tree, there are not two Trees, only one Tree with those broken off and those grafted in, one Tree. According to the Biblical definition of a Jew, there are very very few Jews in present day Israel because only true disciples of Christ are true Jews. The Book that is referred to is the Book of life that has all of the saints recorded in it(all those who will inherit life). it is a separate Book from the Bible.

Yes, I am in total agreement however what age is Jesus referring to in Matthew 24:3?

It is the Jewish age with its Law and its Temple cultus (animal sacrifices) whereas Jesus and the New Covenant rung in the Messianic Age.

Isaiah 65 is a complete prophetic run-down on the transition between covenants from the Jewish Age to the Messianic Age which Jesus spoke of in Matthew 5:17-18 and in the Olivet Discourse.

 

[sdowney717]

Look at the parts that I am highlighted in red above. It is speaking of the whole passage or prophecy as a whole - together. Otherwise all the angels are discussing is the portion I highlighted in green above. WHAT????! WONDERS????!

Couple Daniel 12:7 with:

Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away UNTIL ALL these THINGS have HAPPENED.

Matthew 24:34

For these be the days of vengeance, that ALL THINGS which are WRITTEN MAY be FULFILLED.

Luke 21:22

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED.

Luke 21:32

Yes, there are old testament prophecies yet to be fulfilled, is this what you mean? Such as Isaiah 66.

 

[Jamie Lee]

Hi, im not here for debate, so im not going to read any of the previous comments. This might have already been suggested.
There is a lot of evidence to sugget the end times prophecies were fulfilled in 70 AD. This is called preterism or postmillenialism.
If you look up more about this, I believe youll find it to be quite enlightening. A good book to read is Babylon the Great City of Revelation by Joe Balyeat.
If you really want to understand this interpretation of prophecy thats the best place to start.
God bless.

 

[The Hammer of Witches]

I'm Lutheran and I've always been of the persuasion that the rapture occurs on the last day when Christ returns and raises the dead.

Matthew 24:40-41 has me questioning this. It doesn't seem to jive with my beliefs. For instance it says that "one will be left" which gives me the idea that life will continue on earth after this "taking" takes place.

Thoughts?

Pretribulation Rapture

 

[Winken]

Let everyone who has breath read Post #73. Amen.

 

[Revealing Times]

I'm Lutheran and I've always been of the persuasion that the rapture occurs on the last day when Christ returns and raises the dead.

Matthew 24:40-41 has me questioning this. It doesn't seem to jive with my beliefs. For instance it says that "one will be left" which gives me the idea that life will continue on earth after this "taking" takes place.

Thoughts?

Mathew 24:1-31 is one story. Matthew 24:32-51 is the parable of the Fig Tree.

Jesus tells the Jewish people when it will be that they need to flee to Judea in Matthew 24:16, and it is after the Gospel has been preached unto all the world Matt. 24:14 and after the Abomination of Desolation 24:15. Jesus understands that 90-97 percent of Jews will not be Christians thus they will not make the Rapture, but they will accept the Messiah during the Tribulation, and God will protect them. Immediately after the Tribulation, the Church comes back with Jesus (Rev. 19).

Starting in Matthew 32 is the Fig Tree parable, Jesus here is speaking to a different Jew, he is speaking to the few who will be Christian Jews or Messianic Jews. They will be Raptured just like the rest of Christians. Thus Jesus covers both events. He tells them to be ready for the Lord. Some will be taken and others left.

But most of Israel will not make the Rapture.

The day of the Lord is not a Day, but a 3 1/2 year period of Wrath.

 

[Hallstone]

Yes, I am in total agreement however what age is Jesus referring to in Matthew 24:3?

It is the Jewish age with its Law and its Temple cultus (animal sacrifices) whereas Jesus and the New Covenant rung in the Messianic Age.

Isaiah 65 is a complete prophetic run-down on the transition between covenants from the Jewish Age to the Messianic Age which Jesus spoke of in Matthew 5:17-18 and in the Olivet Discourse.

I believe the age that He is referring to is the time which is referred to as the church age, or the time of the Gentiles, Jesus is the fulfillment and the Kingdom of God is in our hearts and does exist, but when the time of the gentiles is fulfilled then He takes up His power and begins to reign, which is the 7th day, or Sabbath, or Millennium, 1000years, behold the Kingdom of God is in your midst. Isaiah 65 begins with the scripture that refers to Him revealing Himself to the Gentiles. So in this sense He is mixing the saved people from before the cross and the people after the cross and bringing them both to reside in Israel at the end of the church age for the 1000 years, and they will be His priests in His new temple.

 

[keras]

Let everyone who has breath read Post #73. Amen.

Then read #74

So in this sense He is mixing the saved people from before the cross and the people after the cross and bringing them both to reside in Israel at the end of the church age for the 1000 years, and they will be His priests in His new temple.

Revelation 5:9-10 plainly tells us who will be priests in the Temple of the Lord, on earth. Also Isaiah 66:18-21

 

[Hallstone]

Then read #74

Revelation 5:9-10 plainly tells us who will be priests in the Temple of the Lord, on earth. Also Isaiah 66:18-21

Yes it is marvelous how He takes the true believers from each age and brings them all together, all saints from the OT age, and the NT age, and also those who will become saints in the Millennial age, all together, all Israel, and all those who have been chosen to be the 144,000 who are, or are to be His personal entourage.

 

[random person]

Yes, there are old testament prophecies yet to be fulfilled, is this what you mean? Such as Isaiah 66.

Isaiah 66:19-24, what has not been fulfilled yet?

Gentiles are indeed accepted as priests and Levites.

Christians continue to reproduce and their offspring have been blessed.

People did witness the dead bodies of the passing of the Old Covenant. They only has to look down into the valley of Hinnom aka Gehenna, the Romans threw the dead of Jerusalem down into it in a huge open mass grave.

Valley of Hinnom aka Gehenna was a huge garbage dump, fires were never quenched and it was host to all kinds of critters such as maggots, flies, and other pestilence. In fact, the maggots were so numerous, they appeared to never die.

Remember the Lord created a new heavens and new earth in verse 22 of Isaiah 66.

 

[random person]

I believe the age that He is referring to is the time which is referred to as the church age, or the time of the Gentiles, Jesus is the fulfillment and the Kingdom of God is in our hearts and does exist, but when the time of the gentiles is fulfilled then He takes up His power and begins to reign, which is the 7th day, or Sabbath, or Millennium, 1000years, behold the Kingdom of God is in your midst. Isaiah 65 begins with the scripture that refers to Him revealing Himself to the Gentiles. So in this sense He is mixing the saved people from before the cross and the people after the cross and bringing them both to reside in Israel at the end of the church age for the 1000 years, and they will be His priests in His new temple.

There is no end to the church age though, check Ephesians 3:21 - glory in the church, world without end.

And again, Isaiah 9:7 - the increase of His kingdom shall see no end.

20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

21And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

22They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

23They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.

Remember the Lord created a new heavens and new earth in verse 17 of Isaiah 65.

 

[random person]

Then read #74

Revelation 5:9-10 plainly tells us who will be priests in the Temple of the Lord, on earth. Also Isaiah 66:18-21

This is the church age.

 

[sdowney717]

Isaiah 66:19-24, what has not been fulfilled yet?

Gentiles are indeed accepted as priests and Levites.

Christians continue to reproduce and their offspring have been blessed.

People did witness the dead bodies of the passing of the Old Covenant. They only has to look down into the valley of Hinnom aka Gehenna, the Romans threw the dead of Jerusalem down into it in a huge open mass grave.

Valley of Hinnom aka Gehenna was a huge garbage dump, fires were never quenched and it was host to all kinds of critters such as maggots, flies, and other pestilence. In fact, the maggots were so numerous, they appeared to never die.

Remember the Lord created a new heavens and new earth in verse 22 of Isaiah 66.

Except that Peter said the new earth and heavens has not yet happened.
2 Peter 3
The Day of the Lord
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Thi is still in the future.
Consider has the earth and all it's works been burned up?
Who looks for what he has, so then a future time to come.

 

[keras]

Isaiah 66:19-24, what has not been fulfilled yet?

Isaiah 66:23 Month after month....all mankind will come to bow before Me.
None of Isaiah 66 is completely fulfilled, the 'nation in one day' was not the State of Israel, the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, will happen on the Day the Lord comes in fire, testing all mankind, killing many.
He is coming to gather peoples of every language, all true Christians, some He will send out to the nations, the 144,000, to proclaim the coming Kingdom, Before the Return of Jesus, they will build the new Temple. Zechariah 6:15, Ezekiel 40-43
You are correct RP, this will happen in the last days of the Church age.

 

[random person]

Except that Peter said the new earth and heavens has not yet happened.
2 Peter 3
The Day of the Lord
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Thi is still in the future.
Consider has the earth and all it's works been burned up?
Who looks for what he has, so then a future time to come.

Do you know what Greek word is translated into elements in verses 10 & 12?

stoicheion (#4747) and this word is used only 7 times in the whole New Testament. It is used in:

Galatians 4:3
Galatians 4:9
Colossians 2:8
Colossians 2:10
Hebrews 5:12

What is being destroyed here is not the material universe but the Old Covenant, the Law, and its Jewish Temple.

The Jewish Old Covenant heaven and earth:

But I am the Lord thy God,
that divided the [Red - emphasis mine] sea, whose waves roared:
the Lord of hosts is his name.
And I have put my words in thy mouth,
and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand,
that I MAY plant the heavens, and LAY the foundations of the earth,
and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

Isaiah 51:15-16

Why does God need to plant the heavens and lay the foundation of the earth if they already exist at the time of the crossing of the Red Sea and the delivering of the Law?

The New Covenant heaven and earth is found in Isaiah 65.

If the literal earth and its works are burned up then why does sin and death still exist in the new heaven and new earth? Isaiah 65:20, Revelation 22:15.

Why does labor, construction, agriculture, and childbearing still exist? Isaiah 65:21-23.

Why do carcasses still exist? Isaiah 66:24.

And what did Jesus mean in Matthew 5:17-18? That the Law was binding until the material universe passes away? Or the Jewish heaven and earth (Isaiah 51:15-16) passes away after all prophecies are fulfilled including the final judgment of the Jewish age (Isaiah 65:1-16 & Matthew 23:29-36 & Matthew 21:43 & Daniel 12:1-7)?


God gave us promises in His word that He is not going to retract:

And when the Lord smelled the pleasing aroma, the Lord said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man's heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down EVERY LIVING creature as I have done.

Genesis 8:21

In his days may the righteous flourish,
and peace abound, till the moon be no more!

May his name endure forever,
his fame continue as long as the sun!
May people be blessed in him,
all nations call him blessed!

Psalms 72:7,17

He built his sanctuary like the high heavens,
like the earth, which he has founded forever.

Psalms 78:69

His offspring shall endure forever,
his throne as long as the sun before me.
Like the moon it shall be established forever,
a faithful witness in the skies.” Selah

Psalms 89:36-37

He set the earth on its foundations,
so that it should never be moved.



Psalms 104:5

Praise him, you highest heavens,
and you waters above the heavens!
Let them praise the name of the Lord!
For he commanded and they were created.
And he established them forever and ever;
he gave a decree, and it shall not pass away

Psalms 148:4-6

A generation goes, and a generation comes,
but the earth remains forever.

Ecclesiastes 1:4

Unto him be glory IN the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Ephesians 3:21

Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Isaiah 9:7

EDIT: added more content.