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Featured LDS Matthew 22 & Eternal Marriage

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Solomon Smith, Sep 25, 2018.

  1. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member

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    Speaking in general -

    During the 1800s, the social support networks we take for granted didn't exist. If a woman didn't live in a state where she could have property in her name, she was toast if she was a widow or unmarried and had no family willing to support her... something that was an all too common reality since then - as now - it was depressingly common for people to abandon and shun relatives who joined the church.

    Someone like Fanny - who had been knocked up by a previous lover - or Brigham Young's first plural wife, a widow, would have literally been out in the cold due to a society that didn't care.

    Yes, even mainstream Christianity frequently fell short here.

    And contrary to popular belief, the church never functioned as an autocracy; higher levels of government were frequently breathing down our necks, limiting how progressive the church could be. Remember - the Missouri War was as much about abolition as anything else, and the federal government actually stripped women in Utah of the right to vote as punishment for the Mormon Women bloc being beyond Washington's control.

    Plural marriage was a questionable solution, but it was the best solution available at the time.
     
  2. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    Warren Jeffs could make the same argument.
     
  3. Ripheus27

    Ripheus27 Holeless fox

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    The LDS position is that the principles of mercy and justice are just as primordial as matter and spiritual intelligence (or something worded like that). If having multiple wives leads to innocent women becoming heartbroken (as the objection to the practice goes, in the Book of Mormon) and is an abomination and so on, I don't see how God could reasonably allow such a thing unless under some circumstances He would allow other, roughly similar things.

    Now this is something that could be said about some mainstream Christian views, too, but it surprises me that God would allow (or command!) mass rape-murder (during the Mosaic/Joshua conquest) but would never, ever, ever allow two men or two women to be romantically involved.
     
  4. Solomon Smith

    Solomon Smith Active Member

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    So I guess no real answers here from the LDS.
     
  5. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member

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    There were answers.

    Were you willing to hear them?
     
  6. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    How old was she when "knocked up" by a previous lover? (document please)
    What happened to that child? (document please)
    Was Emma happy about Joseph having sex with her (Fanny)?

    ===

    So the ONLY options for these ladies are [1] out in the cold or [2] shacking-up with a married man?
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2018
  7. Solomon Smith

    Solomon Smith Active Member

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    Your answers fell way short.

    I read the Jeff Lindsay article it’s an excuse not an answer.

    I read what Jesus said as well.
     
  8. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    My great-great-grandmother became a widow when her first and only child was one-year-old. She opened a millinery shop with a friend. Later she remarried to a widower. Women weren't forced to marry polygamists.
     
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  9. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member

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    Children of Joseph Smith - Wikipedia

    To date, there is no DNA evidence to indicate that Joseph had children with anyone other than Emma.

    This means that Fanny was likely already pregnant by a lover when she came into the Smith household.

    And as far as the 1800s go... yeah, it was a bad time to be a woman in the US.
     
  10. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Not having children does not equal to not having sex.
     
  11. BigDaddy4

    BigDaddy4 Movin' on...

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    Women and widows in pre-1800s Americas, and before that, Europe and other places, seemed to get along fine for hundreds, and perhaps thousands, of years without needing polygamy to survive.
     
  12. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Soloman Smith, did you actually misquote the scripture to support your belief?
     
  13. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    Last edited: Oct 4, 2018
  14. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Kinda like SolomanSmith. Here is what he said the scripture said, it is quite different:
    No, if you read the Matthew 22 passage Jesus is answering the question of the Sadducees. They ask, “ Whose wife shall she be”? Jesus replies, “No ones wife for we shall not be married in the resurrection”.

    This is one interpretation of the scripture. Mormons have another interpretation.
    They are both logically possible. However, the rest of the bible scriptures that mention marriage support the LDS interpretation. 2 becoming 1 (no time frame).
    What God has put together, no man can put asunder (no time frame). Man should not be without the woman (no time frame).
    1 Peter 3:7 King James Version (KJV)
    7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

    So the bible also teaches that a husband and wife are heirs together of the grace of life. That means that a husband and wife can be heirs together of Eternal Life. IOW, they can be together for ever, or married for ever. Right?

    That is exactly what Mormons believe. So does Peter, so does the bible.
     
  15. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    "like the angels" did you omit this or hope folks didn't read it. Are Mormons into Angel marriages? Do angels have gender?
     
  16. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Did you miss that husbands and wives can be heirs together of EL.

    So from the scriptures we know that some of us will be single and like the angels in heaven (Matthew 22). But from other scriptures we know that some of us will be heirs together of EL, IOW we will be married for our EL. (1 Peter 3:7).
     
  17. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    They will be together if they are both saved. However, what Jesus says very strongly implies there will be no sex in heaven. Or do you believe angels are having sex---esp. since only males are ever mentioned? You, however, very strongly believe there will be sex.
     
  18. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    Petar, have you ever read the Song of Soloman?
     
  19. Solomon Smith

    Solomon Smith Active Member

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    It was a summary. I simply paraphrased what Jesus said. I didn’t misquote him.
     
  20. Solomon Smith

    Solomon Smith Active Member

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    Do you consider that a good thing? That means Joseph Smith had 34 wives that were barren.
     
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