Materialism

[Electric Skeptic]

Nobody has? That's a very strong statement to make. But even if you're right, hasn't your OP been refuted? Aren't there people who are not materialists? You may think we're stupid, or at least naive, but we're here.

Yes, it is a very strong statement - and I'm quite happy to be corrected on it.

But no, the OP hasn't been refuted. The entire point of the OP was that while there are many people who would say they're not materialists (actually, all theists would have to say this) they actually are materialists because that is how they act. Nobody ever actually does anything via faith, or counts on anything being done by faith. In an example used above, if you're hiking and come across someone with their leg trapped under a boulder, you'd be sprinting back to the car to get a jack, not holding a prayer circle to try to move the rock by faith. The same applies to every sphere - even the theists act as if they were materialists. Which, IMO, makes them materialists.

 

[SteelEdge]

We see miracles and healings all the time. Why don't you come to one of our friday night healing services and you will see them also. http://www.ernestangley.org/

Might be a bit difficult as I don't reside in the US. Maybe you could pray in faith for plane tickets and hotel reservations to be sent to me. What miracles happen during the services? Has an amputee ever had their limb regrow during a service?

 

[Willtor]

Okay, this was not how I understood the OP. Tell me if my current understanding is correct: Materialism is true. If materialism is true, then everyone is a materialist. Everyone is a materialist. Is this what you are saying?

 

[Willtor]

I see. I wasn't responding to your OP. This was my first response:

Of course it does. It shows that you rely on materialism when it counts. If you didn't, you wouldn't bother to go to the doctor - you'd just sit at home and pray for your broken leg to heal.

In most cases, I don't think people put this much thought in it. They think, "sick ergo doctor." Of these, some are theists. But in the circle of theists, those who think about what they are doing may have one of the following thought processes:

1. God does not influence the material realm (effectively materialism, as per your OP) - go to a doctor.
2. God influences the material realm in the form of miracle - do not go to a doctor.
3. God influences the material realm in the form of providence - go to a doctor.
4. God influences the material realm in the form of providence and miracle - go to a doctor.

There may be other possibilities, but I don't think most people even make it as far as this. Frankly, I don't think most people think about it at all.

To which you stated:

I quite agree. But the reason they don't think about it at all is because they are aware taht[sic] faith is not a means by which you actually accomplish things in the real world - hence my claim that everybody is a materialist.

This, was what I was disputing. I reread your OP and I don't have a problem with it.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

We see miracles and healings all the time. Why don't you come to one of our friday night healing services and you will see them also. http://www.ernestangley.org/

No, you don't, and no, I won't.

I'll offer the traditional challenge - please cite ONE healing where the following are available:

a) medical evidence of a specific medical condition (eg., x-rays, test results) that is known not to heal without medical intervention,
b) evidence that the person in question was not using conventional medical remedies, and
c) medical evidence of the absence of a specific medical condition after the 'healing' (eg., x-rays, test results).

You won't be able to do so.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

Okay, this was not how I understood the OP. Tell me if my current understanding is correct: Materialism is true. If materialism is true, then everyone is a materialist. Everyone is a materialist. Is this what you are saying?

Not quite - let me clarify. There are many people who claim materialism (the doctrine that nothing exists outside the material) is false. Yet these people act, in their daily lives, as if materialism is true. Their acting in this way demonstrates that even though intellectually they believe materialism to be false, in reality they rely on it and accept it.

 

[Willtor]

Not quite - let me clarify. There are many people who claim materialism (the doctrine that nothing exists outside the material) is false. Yet these people act, in their daily lives, as if materialism is true. Their acting in this way demonstrates that even though intellectually they believe materialism to be false, in reality they rely on it and accept it.

How do you distinguish between someone who relies on and accepts materialism from someone who relies on and accepts providence?

 

[Adriac]

How do you distinguish between someone who relies on and accepts materialism from someone who relies on and accepts providence?

Well I hope we can agree on what things are strictly material (rocks, wind, gravity) and what things are strictly noumenal (God, the soul, ghosts).

Therefore it should be easy to determine if a person is being strictly material (they will perform CPR) or strictly noumenal (they will pray).

While it seems that you are saying that CPR is in of itself a form of divine providence, the point I think the OP is making is that that is still functionally materialist. CPR is obviously material, while prayer is obviously noumenal. Anyone who didn't perform CPR first doesn't deserve to be alive.

 

[JohnR7]

You won't be able to do so.

We can document that people are healed. That is very easy to do. We can give you whatever you want to prove to you that they were healed. The problem is, you will question that they were ever sick in the first place. Or they call it spontanious remission or something else. They search for and can often find an alternative explaination for how they were healed.

We have gone around and around on this one. Even though according to the American Heart Association there is only a 1% chance that I am alive right now. People still deny that it was God that healed me and they try to claim I was just lucky and won the lottery.

 

[Willtor]

Well I hope we can agree on what things are strictly material (rocks, wind, gravity) and what things are strictly noumenal (God, the soul, ghosts).

Therefore it should be easy to determine if a person is being strictly material (they will perform CPR) or strictly noumenal (they will pray).

While it seems that you are saying that CPR is in of itself a form of divine providence, the point I think the OP is making is that that is still functionally materialist. CPR is obviously material, while prayer is obviously noumenal. Anyone who didn't perform CPR first doesn't deserve to be alive.

Again, functionally, I don't have a problem with it, most of the time. When we are talking about science, expedient descriptions are desirable. But when we are talking about a person, how he lives, why he lives the way he lives, expedience is not always desirable. This is why I don't think it makes sense to say that all people are materialists, even functionally.

In a crisis situation, for example, many people are said to cry out to God (or gods, or ancestors, or whatever else). That is, when providence or material means fail to produce the results they desire, they respond by resorting to decidedly noumenal things. Justified or not, it can hardly be said that they are acting like materialists.

Would you do this? Maybe you wouldn't. But a lot of people do. I would tentatively venture to say that most people would (though, I wouldn't press it because I don't have statistics).

How does this affect science? Not one iota. Psychology and sociology, perhaps. But only as the observations they make. Their foundations stick to methodological naturalism because it is expedient. Again, I have no problem with this.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

We can document that people are healed. That is very easy to do. We can give you whatever you want to prove to you that they were healed. The problem is, you will question that they were ever sick in the first place. Or they call it spontanious remission or something else. They search for and can often find an alternative explaination for how they were healed.

No, you can't document it. If you could, you would. Part of documenting it would be to show that they were sick in the first place. That's your job.

We have gone around and around on this one. Even though according to the American Heart Association there is only a 1% chance that I am alive right now. People still deny that it was God that healed me and they try to claim I was just lucky and won the lottery.

If there's a 1% chance that you're alive...then you're the 1%. Congratulations. No reason to think god had anything to do with it.