Materialism

[Willtor]

No, I didn't. I asserted that insisting that is one of the hallmarks of modern Christianity.

Okay. It looked to me like it was a directed comment. At any rate, I thought we were being far more productive before these random assertions entered into it.

 

[JohnR7]

Jesus explicitly says that whatsoever we ask for, we will get. No ifs ands or buts

You are as wrong as wrong can be when you say no ifs, ands or buts. The promises of God are conditional, if we do our part, you can be sure that God will do His part.

1 John 3:22
And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

The promises of God are conditional, if we do our part, you can be sure that God will do His part.

synergism. gong.

 

[SteelEdge]

You are as wrong as wrong can be when you say no ifs, ands or buts. The promises of God are conditional, if we do our part, you can be sure that God will do His part.

1 John 3:22
And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.

Matthew 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

The only conditional part to me is the small amount of faith needed.

 

[Micaiah]

Quote mining!

 

[JohnR7]

The only conditional part to me is the small amount of faith needed.

James makes it clear that faith without works is dead.

James 2:17-18
Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. [18] But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

 

[Willtor]

Matthew 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

The only conditional part to me is the small amount of faith needed.

But the faith is the key. Faith, in the sense that is used through most of Scripture, is distinct from a propositional belief. It is a faith grounded in God. That is, it requires some knowledge of Who God is, and what His intentions are. It is not synonymous with, "trust," but one would do much better to think of it as trust than a propositional belief.

Consider the following statements:

1. I believe that the world is round.

2. I believe in SteelEdge.

The former is a proposition about which I have degrees of certainty. I say that I am more than 95% certain that the Earth is round like a ball. All the evidence points to it and I think that it is so. The second cannot be phrased in this way. If I believe in you, I certainly believe that you exist, but it's really another issue altogether.

In this sense, I can say that I believe in you and then ask you to do a thing. If our relationship has come far enough, you will do it. However, it is contrary to the very faith, itself, for me to ask certain things of you. If I ask you to do something contrary to your character, prepending it with, "I have faith in you," this becomes a non sequitur. I have some erroneous conception of your character or your will in which I made my petition. I have asked, "in bad faith."

When I relate to God, I bring my petition knowing that God is able to do that which He wills. It is in this sense of "faith" that Christ says, "If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you." I absolutely believe that God can move mountains. I believe that He will do so if I ask in faith.

 

[SteelEdge]

But the faith is the key. Faith, in the sense that is used through most of Scripture, is distinct from a propositional belief. It is a faith grounded in God. That is, it requires some knowledge of Who God is, and what His intentions are. It is not synonymous with, "trust," but one would do much better to think of it as trust than a propositional belief.

Why does faith in the christian god require knowledge of who he is and what his intentions are? How do you gain this knowledge? From the bible?

I absolutely believe that God can move mountains. I believe that He will do so if I ask in faith.

So why do mountains never move, unless via dynamite or earthquakes etc? I've never heard of a christian moving a hill let alone a mountain by asking God. Are all these christians lacking in faith or is it that they don't have knowledge of God's intentions?

 

[Electric Skeptic]

You are as wrong as wrong can be when you say no ifs, ands or buts. The promises of God are conditional, if we do our part, you can be sure that God will do His part.

1 John 3:22
And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.

Gee, then I guess Jesus was wrong. But hey, what does he know? I'm sure he'll be glad to hear that you've corrected him.

 

[Willtor]

Why does faith in the christian god require knowledge of who he is and what his intentions are? How do you gain this knowledge? From the bible?

To the best of my albeit limited understanding that's what faith is. Where faith is being discussed in terms of propositions, Christian faith is not being discussed.

One gains knowledge of God from God Himself. It may come through the Bible, the Church, a believer, etc.

So why do mountains never move, unless via dynamite or earthquakes etc? I've never heard of a christian moving a hill let alone a mountain by asking God. Are all these christians lacking in faith or is it that they don't have knowledge of God's intentions?

I am also not aware of an instance in which a mountain was cast into the sea. I think the point of Christ's use of the term was that it was something the people had never seen. There was no dynamite, and earthquakes don't typically cast mountains into the sea, anyway. Thus, although he was not saying that God is not capable of doing such things, I think the point of the passage is that things which are impossible with men are possible with God through faithful petition (for which casting a mountain into the sea is one instance). Certainly, the original audience had no way to conceive of a mountain being cast into the sea through natural means.

As for implications of Christians' faith, I don't know. As I said, I haven't heard of mountains being cast into the sea, and I wouldn't know quite what to look for on a similar scale that might be aptly attributed to faithful prayer.

 

[SteelEdge]

I think the point of the passage is that things which are impossible with men are possible with God through faithful petition (for which casting a mountain into the sea is one instance). Certainly, the original audience had no way to conceive of a mountain being cast into the sea through natural means.

Matthew 17:20 NIV
He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

I don't see any indication of impossibility, if you have a small amount of faith.

 

[Willtor]

I don't see any indication of impossibility, if you have a small amount of faith.

Yes, of course, as I say the faith makes the difference. But without faith it is impossible. If it were said today, it would probably be something bigger than moving a mountain. But this was a pretty big thing to the original audience.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

Yes, of course, as I say the faith makes the difference. But without faith it is impossible. If it were said today, it would probably be something bigger than moving a mountain. But this was a pretty big thing to the original audience.

But it's impossible WITH faith. Or people would do it. Which is the entire point of the thread.

 

[Willtor]

But it's impossible WITH faith. Or people would do it. Which is the entire point of the thread.

I disagree. I think it is possible with faith, and I think that people would do it if it were a faithful thing to do.

 

[SteelEdge]

Yes, of course, as I say the faith makes the difference. But without faith it is impossible. If it were said today, it would probably be something bigger than moving a mountain. But this was a pretty big thing to the original audience.

So why is it that Christians who profess to have faith cannot do even minor things, let alone moving a mountain?

For example, if you were hiking in the mountains and came across a hiker who had his leg trapped under a boulder, you being a Christian of faith should be able to command the boulder to move if Matthew 17:20 was correct.

 

[Willtor]

So why is it that Christians who profess to have faith cannot do even minor things, let alone moving a mountain?

For example, if you were hiking in the mountains and came across a hiker who had his leg trapped under a boulder, you being a Christian of faith should be able to command the boulder to move if Matthew 17:20 was correct.

Yes, this is the petition I would make.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

I disagree. I think it is possible with faith, and I think that people would do it if it were a faithful thing to do.

I'm not sure what "a faithful thing to do" means - but if it's possible with faith, why has nobody done it? Never mind moving mountains - moving ANYthing. DOing anything. Why has nobody ever done anything by faith?

 

[Willtor]

I'm not sure what "a faithful thing to do" means - but if it's possible with faith, why has nobody done it? Never mind moving mountains - moving ANYthing. DOing anything. Why has nobody ever done anything by faith?

Nobody has? That's a very strong statement to make. But even if you're right, hasn't your OP been refuted? Aren't there people who are not materialists? You may think we're stupid, or at least naive, but we're here.

 

[David Gould]

Aren't there people who are not materialists? You may think we're stupid, or at least naive, but we're here.

His point was that you are materialists in practice. For example, did you pray that those words would appear on his computer screen, or did you go to a computer, type the words in and submit them to an internet forum that he had access to?

Do you close your eyes and pray that God will lead you safely across the road, or do you look both ways before you cross and rely on your fallible human sense over and above the guidance of the Holy Spirit?

In everything of significance that you do, you operate as if the material world is all there is - at least, that is the proposition.

Can you give me an example of something measureable that you rely completely on prayer to acheive, for example?

 

[JohnR7]

So why is it that Christians who profess to have faith cannot do even minor things, let alone moving a mountain?

We see miracles and healings all the time. Why don't you come to one of our friday night healing services and you will see them also. http://www.ernestangley.org/