Materialism

[Willtor]

Of course it does. It shows that you rely on materialism when it counts. If you didn't, you wouldn't bother to go to the doctor - you'd just sit at home and pray for your broken leg to heal.

In most cases, I don't think people put this much thought in it. They think, "sick ergo doctor." Of these, some are theists. But in the circle of theists, those who think about what they are doing may have one of the following thought processes:

1. God does not influence the material realm (effectively materialism, as per your OP) - go to a doctor.
2. God influences the material realm in the form of miracle - do not go to a doctor.
3. God influences the material realm in the form of providence - go to a doctor.
4. God influences the material realm in the form of providence and miracle - go to a doctor.

There may be other possibilities, but I don't think most people even make it as far as this. Frankly, I don't think most people think about it at all.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

Sounds to me like you are sugegsting there is a lack of faith in God in this world.

Not so much a lack of faith as a recognition - even by the most ardent - that faith is not something you can rely on to actually accomplish anything.

I don't know of any Christians who display this behaviour. It is my belief that science is somthing to be embraced and harnased for good. Many scientists today and in the past are/were YEC's.

I know of a great many Christians who display this behaviour. It's the root cause of creationism. And I would say that today very, very few scientists are YECs.

We do get annoyed when evolutionists make deceptive claims.

As you should. You should get annoyed when anyone makes deceptive claims. However, by virtue of the fact that you talk of 'evolutionists', I would guess that what to science are reasonable and accurate claims are, to you, 'deceptive' - which puts you in the category talked of above (if not, I apologise).

 

[Electric Skeptic]

In most cases, I don't think people put this much thought in it. They think, "sick ergo doctor." Of these, some are theists. But in the circle of theists, those who think about what they are doing may have one of the following thought processes:

1. God does not influence the material realm (effectively materialism, as per your OP) - go to a doctor.
2. God influences the material realm in the form of miracle - do not go to a doctor.
3. God influences the material realm in the form of providence - go to a doctor.
4. God influences the material realm in the form of providence and miracle - go to a doctor.

There may be other possibilities, but I don't think most people even make it as far as this. Frankly, I don't think most people think about it at all.

I quite agree. But the reason they don't think about it at all is because they are aware taht faith is not a means by which you actually accomplish things in the real world - hence my claim that everybody is a materialist.

 

[Willtor]

I quite agree. But the reason they don't think about it at all is because they are aware taht faith is not a means by which you actually accomplish things in the real world - hence my claim that everybody is a materialist.

But not everybody is a materialist. Some think and come to conclusions 2, 3, or 4. Some come to the first conclusion and can be said to have largely materialist views. Those who do not can only be said to be materialist in the sense that they were raised in a materialist society, have adopted materialist responses to everyday situations, and have never questioned them. If we tentatively classify these people as materialists, we still haven't said that everybody is a materialist. Just most people in our society.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

But not everybody is a materialist. Some think and come to conclusions 2, 3, or 4. Some come to the first conclusion and can be said to have largely materialist views. Those who do not can only be said to be materialist in the sense that they were raised in a materialist society, have adopted materialist responses to everyday situations, and have never questioned them. If we tentatively classify these people as materialists, we still haven't said that everybody is a materialist. Just most people in our society.

That's the entire point. Everybody IS a materialist. Why they are (ie., whether it's because they were raised in a predominantly materialist society, or whatever) isn't at issue. The fact is that they are - or they wouldn't be going to the doctor.

 

[Willtor]

That's the entire point. Everybody IS a materialist. Why they are (ie., whether it's because they were raised in a predominantly materialist society, or whatever) isn't at issue. The fact is that they are - or they wouldn't be going to the doctor.

Again, my point of contention is not that you have decided to classify these people (whom I would consider unexamined) as materialists. It is your use of "everybody." I have pointed out that there exist theists who have thought and who have come to conclusions besides #1. None of these can be considered materialist.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

Again, my point of contention is not that you have decided to classify these people (whom I would consider unexamined) as materialists. It is your use of "everybody." I have pointed out that there exist theists who have thought and who have come to conclusions besides #1. None of these can be considered materialist.

I disagree. The 'doctor' example is merely one. Whatever conclusion people come to, if they act in a materialist way, they can be considered a materialist. And everybody does act in a materialist way. Jesus said that with faith we can move mountains, that whatsoever we ask we shall recieve - certainly not a basis for thinking that faith won't get what you ask for. Yet it doesn't - and people know it. Which is why they are all materialists.

 

[Micaiah]

Not so much a lack of faith as a recognition - even by the most ardent - that faith is not something you can rely on to actually accomplish anything.

Disagreed.

If you are suggesting that Chrstians should be living like some kind of wizard or a genie where you get out of bed and pray that breakfast will appear on the table and poof there it is, then you you don't understand christian faith . That is not surprising given you are an atheist.

I know of a great many Christians who display this behaviour. It's the root cause of creationism. And I would say that today very, very few scientists are YECs.

Creationists are people who recognise that what God says about Creation is dependable and that there is a lot of clap trap put out in the name of science to explain origins without reference to God the Creator.

 

[Willtor]

I disagree. The 'doctor' example is merely one. Whatever conclusion people come to, if they act in a materialist way, they can be considered a materialist. And everybody does act in a materialist way. Jesus said that with faith we can move mountains, that whatsoever we ask we shall recieve - certainly not a basis for thinking that faith won't get what you ask for. Yet it doesn't - and people know it. Which is why they are all materialists.

If this turns into a behaviorist argument I'm going to be sorely disappointed. That said...

Using the God == Santa hermeneutic, can't one simply say that if a thing didn't happen, one didn't have enough faith?

Using the God != Santa hermeneutic, can't one say it was not the will of God?

In either case, one might complain that one cannot set up a double-blind test for faith, but if one could establish such a test, wouldn't faith become a natural phenomenon? Wouldn't that truely make everyone a materialist?

 

[TeddyKGB]

Creationists are people who recognise that what God says about Creation is dependable and that there is a lot of clap trap put out in the name of science to explain origins without reference to God the Creator.

This is a massively erroneously inflated description of the average creationist.

Creationists are very rarely scientifically adept enough even to understand the proper definitions of evolution, let alone be able to demonstrate that the considerable evidence is mostly "clap trap."

More commonly, the creationist starts with the premise that Genesis is literally true (whatever that means) and that evolution must be false thereby. Actually showing that evolution is indeed false is usually a minor concern.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

If you are suggesting that Chrstians should be living like some kind of wizard or a genie where you get out of bed and pray that breakfast will appear on the table and poof there it is, then you you don't understand christian faith . That is not surprising given you are an atheist.

I don't understand what YOU think christian faith is, perhaps. It was Jesus who said that we shouldn't worry about where our next meal is coming from - God will provide. Yet he doesn't. And people know that - which is why Christians work, save, and buy their own food - because they are materialists who know that God won't provide them anything.

Creationists are people who recognise that what God says about Creation is dependable and that there is a lot of clap trap put out in the name of science to explain origins without reference to God the Creator.

Creationists are hypocrites who approve of and applaud science as long as it doesn't contradict their religious beliefs - then they are only too eager to ignore it, tell us how bad and error-prone it is, and attempt to destroy it.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

If this turns into a behaviorist argument I'm going to be sorely disappointed. That said...

Using the God == Santa hermeneutic, can't one simply say that if a thing didn't happen, one didn't have enough faith?

Using the God != Santa hermeneutic, can't one say it was not the will of God?

No (if you are a Christian) because Jesus explicitly says that whatsoever we ask for, we will get. No ifs ands or buts - if you ask for it, you'll get it.

In either case, one might complain that one cannot set up a double-blind test for faith, but if one could establish such a test, wouldn't faith become a natural phenomenon? Wouldn't that truely make everyone a materialist?

Faith is a natural phenomenon - just like all mental behaviours. If (religious) faith were able to actually accomplish something, the method by which it was accomplished would never become materialist, because god is outside the materia.

 

[MewtwoX]

I would say that people generally forced to take a methodological Naturalist stance. Although if one was to think on what they do, most Theists would insist that they follow a Dualistic idea of the universe, where they rely on physical solution with (as Willtor suggested) Providence from God.

Nonetheless, it appears that people in general are forced to dabble in some form of Methodological Naturalism in order for proper functioning, given the surprisingly small number of people who try to follow a life independant of material goods.

 

[Willtor]

No (if you are a Christian) because Jesus explicitly says that whatsoever we ask for, we will get. No ifs ands or buts - if you ask for it, you'll get it.

If this interpretation were consistent with theology, you could pray for God to lie and (assuming you had faith the size of a mustard seed) He would do so.

Faith is a natural phenomenon - just like all mental behaviours. If (religious) faith were able to actually accomplish something, the method by which it was accomplished would never become materialist, because god is outside the materia.

Maybe.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

If this interpretation were consistent with theology, you could pray for God to lie and (assuming you had faith the size of a mustard seed) He would do so.

Take it up with Jesus. He said it, not me.

Oh, that's right - I forgot. Today's Christianity is only too happy to 'interpret' what Jesus said to mean something he didn't say.

 

[Willtor]

Take it up with Jesus. He said it, not me.

Oh, that's right - I forgot. Today's Christianity is only too happy to 'interpret' what Jesus said to mean something he didn't say.

You forgot this? You're new here, aren't you? Isn't this the first tenant of YECism?

 

[Willtor]

You forgot this? You're new here, aren't you? Isn't this the first tenant of YECism?

This was rude, so I'm sorry.

But in all fairness, I never challenged your motives.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

You forgot this? You're new here, aren't you? Isn't this the first tenant of YECism?

This was rude, so I'm sorry.

But in all fairness, I never challenged your motives.

You lost me completely.

 

[Willtor]

You lost me completely.

You asserted that you had the correct interpretation and that all other interpretations are twisting of words.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

You asserted that you had the correct interpretation and that all other interpretations are twisting of words.

No, I didn't. I asserted that insisting that is one of the hallmarks of modern Christianity.