Masks Are Essentially Worthless

Yekcidmij · Jul 30, 2020

Redwingfan9 said:
I don't doubt there would be economic issues regardless.

Ok, but that doesn't support the claim. The claim was "the cure will is worse than the virus."

That said, suicides are up this year. Opioid overdoses are also up.

(1) What's the covid death count?

(2) You're not comparing apples to apples. What's the infection rate of suicides and opioid overdoses? I suspect the R0 is 0.

Well over 10 million have lost their jobs and over 30% of mortgages are delinquent.

And would your economic suggestions make this better or worse? That was essentially the question my previous post.

All of this over an outmoded fear of death,

Survival is a basic human instinct. This virus is highly infectious and deadly to a lot of people. I don't think it's "outmoded" to consider this a real risk and take measures to reduce it. I mean, I suppose there could be examples of taking it too far - if Bob has gone into his doomsday bunker and won't be able to come out for 30 years (think of that movie "Blast from the Past"), maybe he has an irrational fear. But taking action to reduce risk of covid-19 is hardly "outmoded."

driven by a hysteria driven media and a collection of governments that have no idea what they're doing.

Well, media creates hysteria no matter what. The risk is real no matter what mass media does or doesn't do.

As a Christian I say all of this should drive people to the church but even the church is largely cowering in fear, either of the virus or Caesar.

Crowding in rooms increases risk of infection, especially if you know or believe many of the people in the room won't really do anything to reduce risk of infection. And there are a lot of people who. if infected, would risk getting really sick or worse. As a Christian I would say that the church should care about people's health and reducing risk during a pandemic. It really shouldn't even matter what "Caesar" says; the church should be setting the example.

Redwingfan9 · Jul 30, 2020

HatGuy said:
If someone is asking me to wear a mask because they are scared, I don't see it a meaningless gesture to help them out a bit. It's not a 'display', it's just a simple kindness.

It's a mountain out of a molehill in my opinion.

It's not my job to make you unafraid of the world. What about the legions of people with athesma, autism or other mental illnesses who are made to feel dangerous and inferior because they cannot wear masks? What about kids who have trouble hearing or speaking who can't wear or be around people wearing masks because of their conditions? No one cares about any of them, they're just collateral damage like the millions of "unessental" workers who lost their jobs because of government dictate. No one cares about any of them, no sir we have to cater to media driven irrational fear.

Redwingfan9 · Jul 30, 2020

Yekcidmij said:
Ok, but that doesn't support the claim. The claim was "the cure will is worse than the virus."

(1) What's the covid death count?

(2) You're not comparing apples to apples. What's the infection rate of suicides and opioid overdoses? I suspect the R0 is 0.

And would your economic suggestions make this better or worse? That was essentially the question my previous post.

Survival is a basic human instinct. This virus is highly infectious and deadly to a lot of people. I don't think it's "outmoded" to consider this a real risk and take measures to reduce it. I mean, I suppose there could be examples of taking it too far - if Bob has gone into his doomsday bunker and won't be able to come out for 30 years (think of that movie "Blast from the Past"), maybe he has an irrational fear. But taking action to reduce risk of covid-19 is hardly "outmoded."

Well, media creates hysteria no matter what. The risk is real no matter what mass media does or doesn't do.

Crowding in rooms increases risk of infection, especially if you know or believe many of the people in the room won't really do anything to reduce risk of infection. And there are a lot of people who. if infected, would risk getting really sick or worse. As a Christian I would say that the church should care about people's health and reducing risk during a pandemic. It really shouldn't even matter what "Caesar" says; the church should be setting the example.

Around 2.8 million Americans die annually. We're on pace for a statistically insignificant one year rise in deaths of 6-8%. Maybe.

The church should be setting the example by conducting worship services without fear.

loveofourlord · Jul 30, 2020

Yekcidmij said:
I'm curious about the economic costs you've calculated. What are the economic costs of letting the virus run it's course without any mitigation measures? Why think that the economy would do better under those conditions? Under those conditions, you have to at least allow for the possibility that people will social distance, wear masks, and conduct other risk reduction measures on their own until the virus doesn't present a significant risk. This could make the costs to the aggregate economy worse than implementing risk reduction measures now, as a sufficient number of people may feel the need to conduct more of these measures themselves and for a longer period of time if they perceive the virus to be a risk to themselves and those around them. I find it hard to believe that people won't respond any differently to high infection rates and increased risks and instead would treat everything as normal.

So it's not necessarily true that "the cure is worse than the virus" since this claim requires knowledge of some set of counterfactual worlds. And I'd be interested in how you arrive at your economic calculations.

I'm curious how well the economy is going on down in texas florida and arizona considering the insane deaths there now.

mmksparbud · Jul 30, 2020

Redwingfan9 said:
Why should 330 million people be forced by the barrel of a government gun to wear a mask that on its best day offers 3% protection? Let's look at this more broadly. Each year 30-100k Americans die of flu. Should we wear masks on the hope that they might stop 3% of flu cases? According to the CDC's own estimates, Coronavirus has a 99.4-99.85% survival rate. Should all of us be inconvenienced and have our good health put in jeopardy on the outside hope that maybe a couple thousand won't die? That strikes me as completely insane. Especially in light of the dire negative consequences that the governments actions have had on society, from enforced social distancing to economic shutdowns and school closures. The cure is worse than the virus.

You are not protecting yourself from the flue. People are having affects for months after recovery---they are being left with heart, brain and lung damage. They are being left riddled with blood clots. The affects may or may not be permanent---no one knows---yet. You won't think it insane when you get it and 4 months after recovery, you still can't walk, are s.o.b with little exertion and can't think clearly. You will be demanding that the government you now think is insane, has to take care of you.

Silly Uncle Wayne · Jul 30, 2020

Isilwen said:
But according to Lindsay Wiley, the director of the Health Law and Policy Program at American University, there is a legal basis for mandatory masks.

Q&A: Are Face Mask Requirements Legal?

At this point, I really really wish I could leave this country!

Where would you go?

parousia70 · Jul 30, 2020

grandvizier1006 said:
I don't think this strategy of getting my fellow conservatives to wear masks is going to work.

Maybe not... but if any of them are from the Alex Jones wing, it's fun to tell them this, stand back, count backwards from 3...2...1.. and watch their head explode.

Isilwen · Jul 30, 2020

Silly Uncle Wayne said:
Where would you go?

I was raised by the Italian half of my family, so probably Italy. Somewhere around Tuscany.

Yekcidmij · Jul 30, 2020

Redwingfan9 said:
We're on pace for a statistically insignificant one year rise in deaths of 6-8%. Maybe.

Is this pace given current measures in place now and over the last few months or in the suggested world where there are no measures in place? Again, you're not comparing apples to apples. We would need to know both the infection and death rates given the world as you suggest it ought to be. Additionally, you're comparing deaths from an infection (which are by definition not statistically independent) to deaths that are statistically independent (heart disease, car accidents, cancer, stroke, diabetes, suicide...).

Redwingfan9 · Jul 30, 2020

mmksparbud said:
You are not protecting yourself from the flue. People are having affects for months after recovery---they are being left with heart, brain and lung damage. They are being left riddled with blood clots. The affects may or may not be permanent---no one knows---yet. You won't think it insane when you get it and 4 months after recovery, you still can't walk, are s.o.b with little exertion and can't think clearly. You will be demanding that the government you now think is insane, has to take care of you.

That's absolute worst case scenario, just like it is with flu. (Heart and lung damage happen with flu too) The overwhelming majority of Corona patients are asymptomatic or have very mild symptoms. The majority of those with severe symptoms which require hospitalization are older with preexisting health problems. 99.4-99.85% recover. Color me unconcerned about the virus.

Isilwen · Jul 30, 2020

Silly Uncle Wayne said:
Where would you go?

My girlfriend is of Irish, Scottish, English and French descent and those are options as well. We have friends in England.

HatGuy · Jul 30, 2020

Redwingfan9 said:
It's not my job to make you unafraid of the world. What about the legions of people with athesma, autism or other mental illnesses who are made to feel dangerous and inferior because they cannot wear masks? What about kids who have trouble hearing or speaking who can't wear or be around people wearing masks because of their conditions? No one cares about any of them, they're just collateral damage like the millions of "unessental" workers who lost their jobs because of government dictate. No one cares about any of them, no sir we have to cater to media driven irrational fear.

Kind-of ironic. Fear of the media's creating of fear sounds just as irrational and paranoid.

Storm in a teacup.

Redwingfan9 · Jul 30, 2020

Yekcidmij said:
Is this pace given current measures in place now and over the last few months or in the suggested world where there are no measures in place? Again, you're not comparing apples to apples. We would need to know both the infection and death rates given the world as you suggest it ought to be. Additionally, you're comparing deaths from an infection (which are by definition not statistically independent) to deaths that are statistically independent (heart disease, car accidents, cancer, stroke, diabetes, suicide...).

I'm saying we annually have 2.8 million deaths in the United States and right now we're on pace for around 3 million. Obviously there are a lot of factors that go into annually deaths, most of which we can more or less count on. (Heart disease, cancer, car accidents are pretty steady over time)

Dkh587 · Jul 30, 2020

Isilwen said:
No, it makes sense that we would assume that people would listen to the mandates and wear a mask, not only protecting themselves but those around them as well.

The mandates are not reasonable - there is no proof that cloth masks are effective - the OP has posted plenty of sources showing that cloth masks do not protect from/against diseases/viruses etc

cloth masks being effective is a theory, it’s not a fact, so to think we are protecting each other by wearing them is silly.

a cloth mask cannot block any virus.

Isilwen · Jul 30, 2020

Dkh587 said:
The mandates are not reasonable - there is no proof that cloth masks are effective - the OP has posted plenty of sources showing that cloth masks do not protect from/against diseases/viruses etc

cloth masks being effective is a theory, it’s not a fact, so to think we are protecting each other by wearing them is silly.

a cloth mask cannot block any virus.

Within this thread, the OP's proof has been debunked. I suggest you read it!

Yes, the mandates are reasonable. I'm sorry that you cannot see it!

Dave L · Jul 30, 2020

Redwingfan9 said:
The notion that science has determined that masks are going to save us from Chinese Coronavirus (or any other disease) is utter tosh. Anyone telling you science is settled on any issue should raise a red flag. On masks, science isn't close to settled.

The British Journal of Medicine says cloth masks are 97% useless. A cluster randomised trial of cloth masks compared with medical masks in healthcare workers

A study of the more serious 1918 flu pandemic showed masks useless. The American Journal of Public Health (AJPH) from the American Public Health Association (APHA) publications

Another study shows cloth masks useless compared to surgical masks. A cluster randomised trial of cloth masks compared with medical masks in healthcare workers

Other studies show cloth masks useless compared to surgical masks, even the latter are questionable. They include:
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/bio/23/2/23_61/_pdf/-char/en

Error - Cookies Turned Off
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2493952/pdf/annrcse01509-0009.pdf

https://www.journalofhospitalinfection.com/article/0195-6701(91)90148-2/pdf

Simple Respiratory Protection—Evaluation of the Filtration Performance of Cloth Masks and Common Fabric Materials Against 20–1000 nm Size Particles

Masks are associated with oxygen deprivation and increased rates of infection according to these studies:

[Effect of a surgical mask on six minute walking distance] - PubMed

"Exercise with facemask; Are we handling a devil's sword?" - A physiological hypothesis - PubMed

Healthcare personnel exposure in an emergency department during influenza season - PubMed

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15340662/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26579222/

A 2015 British study on surgical masks revealed masks don't really protect patient or surgeon very much. And that's in sterile settings. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/ar...-KkzpdkmzltnAf-GXp7gMeQkkyeZJ6gEs7G5h8PHln_R0

Finally, one New England Journal of Medicine editorial acknowledged the uselessness of masks but demanded universal masking nonetheless less for its placebo effect. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2006372

There is plenty of evidence out there that masks and mask mandates aren't working and in fact are causing harm. They're a placebo to make you think you're protected and to make politicians look like they're doing something when they're in reality doing nothing.

Do your own research.

https://www.livescience.com/hair-stylists-infected-covid19-face-masks.html

Isilwen · Jul 30, 2020

Dave L said:
Hairstylists with COVID-19 didn't infect any of their 139 clients. Face masks may be why. | Live Science

I posted a different article on the same thing, it was ignored!

Isilwen · Jul 30, 2020

Silly Uncle Wayne said:
Where would you go?

Also, Norway was another option. We both love the cold!

RaymondG · Jul 30, 2020

Dkh587 said:
The mandates are not reasonable - there is no proof that cloth masks are effective - the OP has posted plenty of sources showing that cloth masks do not protect from/against diseases/viruses etc

cloth masks being effective is a theory, it’s not a fact, so to think we are protecting each other by wearing them is silly.

a cloth mask cannot block any virus.

Look at all the links. One of the links claim that wearing a mask could potentially save 9.9 million lives in the U.S. see post :Masks Are Essentially Worthless

Redwingfan9 · Jul 30, 2020

Dave L said:
Hairstylists with COVID-19 didn't infect any of their 139 clients. Face masks may be why. | Live Science

One or two anecdotal reports does not prove anything about masks. They certainly don't chip away at the conclusions reached by a dozen scholarly articles.

Masks Are Essentially Worthless

Presbyterian, Polymath

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Well-Known Member

Presbyterian, Polymath

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Some guy in a hat

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency